What is the line between being selfish and communicating your needs?

The treatment we all want is recognition that we are individuals, each with our own opinions and feelings and for these opinions and feelings to be afforded respect and consideration.

The humanists get a lot of things right, this would seem to be one of them. I can see that too strict an interpretation of the 'golden rule' could lead to some pretty silly outcomes. Since pretty much everyone has difference of opinion about the details of life, focusing on those doesn't get us very far. Instead, focus on the general principles which most people *do* prefer and leave the finer details for "getting to know you" as GG put it.

"tolerance, consideration and compassion" - from the same site

I doubt very many people want to be treated in contrast to these principles. Should you encounter someone that does, just consider them a one-off and don't think on it further.
 
"treat others the way you want to be treated" does NOT mean, "i'll make your coffee the way i like it because i'm assuming everyone likes their coffee the same way".

It means "i like my coffee a certain way, and we should all make each other's coffee however the other person likes it"

Eh, meh. That analogy doesn't flow smoothly. I guess what i'm trying to say is that this "platinum rule" is rather unneccessary, unless you're taking the "golden rule" way too literally. To be frank, i've never heard of it being taken to such an extreme level as meaning "treating others the way i want to be treated means feeding them foods they don't like just because i like those foods" until this thread right here. That's just warped. It never occurred to me to do it that way before. Sounds like a good topic for a college term paper in Philosophy 101 though.
 
Your right

It doesn't mean:
Boring Guy said:
"i'll make your coffee the way i like it because i'm assuming everyone likes their coffee the same way"

It means being honest with yourself and others about knowing better than to serve a cup of coffee the way you know a person doesn't like it, or even worse intentionally serve them a bad cup of coffee (from their perspective) yet pretend you are doing them a favor.

It may be funny as a joke, but when the person the joke is played on isn't aware of what is happening it isn't funny.

Like many things in life, the line that separates right from wrong behavior is honesty. Polyamory without honesty is cheating. Honesty, full disclosure and explicitly stating that a behavior or action is desired are what makes the difference between two identical situations happening, yet one scenario is right and the other is wrong.

Dishonesty is a factor that can make any political view point wrong, while honesty can make it right. If a politician backs up outright false claims with bogus research (like stating that soot from coal burning power plants is more toxic to the planet of the life it harbors then say, nuclear waste) that type of behavior is wrong. It doesn't matter if the assertion is to D.O.E. politics or just a step in a non-political, philosophical mind fuck in order to manipulate others perspective, dishonesty can make almost any right action, wrong. Honesty can make many actions taken that could be wrong, right because of the elements that honesty brings to the table.
 
"treat others the way you want to be treated" does NOT mean, "i'll make your coffee the way i like it because i'm assuming everyone likes their coffee the same way".

It means "i like my coffee a certain way, and we should all make each other's coffee however the other person likes it"

Right. And now I want coffee...

I can see the confusion, though, in practice... at least in my relationship.

There are certain things in our relationship that I tend to take issue with, while my metamour does not. If I am bothered by something, even if she's not bothered by it, I will not do it to her (unless, for some reason she asks, which hasn't happened).

I'm sure some would consider this the "golden rule", but it's not - I'm not really doing her a favor, but I'm doing it for my own peace of mind. If I'm uncomfortable being treated in a certain way, then it tends to be that I'm uncomfortable treating someone in the same way.

This involves some degree of respect for the other person - you don't want to treat them in a way that you feel is disrespectful, but it doesn't quite feel like the full intent of the Golden Rule... is there an Aluminum Rule?

Many people don't go that extra step to figure out what it is that the other person wants, and only go so far as to act in a manner that they find respectful. Hence, the Golden Rule not looking the same to everyone.
 
This thread has officially devolved into a comedy routine.
 
Right. And now I want coffee...

I can see the confusion, though, in practice... at least in my relationship.

There are certain things in our relationship that I tend to take issue with, while my metamour does not. If I am bothered by something, even if she's not bothered by it, I will not do it to her (unless, for some reason she asks, which hasn't happened).


But this seems counter productive for a healthy relationship, at least to me.

For example: I prefer complete openness and knowing all the details, including sexual ones, about my husbands relationships.

He prefers to not know anything or as little as possible and only in so far as it matters to the relationship he and I have.

According to your golden rule, I would tell him every single detail about my relationships, and he would tell me absolutely nothing about his relationships.

Which would lead to 2 very frustrated and unhappy people, who neither are getting what they want, yet still treating the other person as they prefer to be treated.

In this particular case I think it is better reach for a compromise. He tell me as much as he is comfortable sharing and I deal with not knowing every single detail.

And if I ever have another relationship, I'll share with him in big lines what is going on but keep the details to myself (or post them here on the forum ;)).

That way we each treat each other how the OTHER wants to be treated (the platinum rule mentioned before), instead of how WE want to be treated (the golden rule).
 
Ah... This is where my attempt to be brief led me to be vague instead. No, I see your point, and I know that's not a good example. The CONVERSE of that is actually my example.

I don't want to know the inner-goings-on of my partner's and metamour's relationship - not in incredible detail, anyway. I feel such things should remain within a relationship. As a result, I would have a hard time offering up such information, even if my metamour wanted it. (Arguments of privacy, etc. are also a factor here, but it's hard to find an example that doesn't have other factors tied into it)

This does, however, illustrate my point - my example could be interpreted as "I shall treat others the way I want to be treated" and it could look like a good, considerate thing. Your example illustrates that it isn't necessarily a good thing, and that what can be considered a "golden rule" in some cases may drive the other person bonkers.

Clear as mud? ;)
 
Ah... This is where my attempt to be brief led me to be vague instead. No, I see your point, and I know that's not a good example. The CONVERSE of that is actually my example.

I don't want to know the inner-goings-on of my partner's and metamour's relationship - not in incredible detail, anyway. I feel such things should remain within a relationship. As a result, I would have a hard time offering up such information, even if my metamour wanted it. (Arguments of privacy, etc. are also a factor here, but it's hard to find an example that doesn't have other factors tied into it)

This does, however, illustrate my point - my example could be interpreted as "I shall treat others the way I want to be treated" and it could look like a good, considerate thing. Your example illustrates that it isn't necessarily a good thing, and that what can be considered a "golden rule" in some cases may drive the other person bonkers.

Clear as mud? ;)

:)

I think that a good "rule" is "treat others as they want to be treated, in so far as you (and the other people involved) feel comfortable doing so".

And sometimes that means a compromise in which all parties need to step outside of their comfort zone a bit. And nothing wrong with that. Stepping outside of your comfort zone is what makes us grow as human beings :)
 
. . . I prefer complete openness and knowing all the details, including sexual ones, about my husbands relationships.

He prefers to not know anything or as little as possible and only in so far as it matters to the relationship he and I have.

According to your golden rule, I would tell him every single detail about my relationships, and he would tell me absolutely nothing about his relationships.

Which would lead to 2 very frustrated and unhappy people, who neither are getting what they want, yet still treating the other person as they prefer to be treated.

In this particular case I think it is better reach for a compromise. He tell me as much as he is comfortable sharing and I deal with not knowing every single detail.

And if I ever have another relationship, I'll share with him in big lines what is going on but keep the details to myself (or post them here on the forum ;)).

That way we each treat each other how the OTHER wants to be treated (the platinum rule mentioned before), instead of how WE want to be treated (the golden rule).

What you are talking about is the Golden Rule -- treating people like we want to be treated means treating them with respect for their individual needs, not giving them what we want. That's ridiculous. Gah, come on! The Golden Rule is about empathy and reciprocity, and recognizing others as individuals. It is about people treating others in a manner in which they themselves would like to be treated. Not treating them like clones of themselves. If you want kindness and consideration shown you, then treat others kindly and with consideration. Duh. (Not "Duh" to you, but "Duh" in general)

It amazes me that people take the Golden Rule so literally that a silly Platinum Rule was made-up for them just because they clearly have no clue what the Golden Rule truly is. In the Bible, it comes from the verse that says "Love your neighbor as yourself," which is NOT the same as "Give thy neighbor what you want for yourself" or "Make thy neighbor coffee the way you drink your coffee." Egad.
 
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And in case the point was lost, I was illustrating that my example, while it could look like the golden rule on the surface, really isn't.

I feel like I'm not coming across well, but I agree with you, NYC - that's the intent of the rule. I'm just illustrating the confusion some people have. A little TOO well, I'm afraid! :eek:
 
And in case the point was lost, I was illustrating that my example, while it could look like the golden rule on the surface, really isn't.

I feel like I'm not coming across well, but I agree with you, NYC - that's the intent of the rule. I'm just illustrating the confusion some people have. A little TOO well, I'm afraid! :eek:

I got what you meant the first time. :D
 
I'm inventing the Titanium Kryptonite Rule that says i dictate everything, including the food you eat and the brand of toilet paper you wipe your ass with, as well as whether the roll is toward the front or the back of the thing... I am afraid i don't remember the names for everything. I've been trying to study the vocabulary but the conservatives are messing up the databases and putting false facts in where people will look to confirm who said it first.

Franklin veaux must not be allowed to continue getting away with these things.
 
The Golden Rule is not an injunction to impose one’s will on someone else!

I understand it fine, nycindie. That was the whole point I was trying to make, though probably not as cleanly as I could.

"Platinum" is just derived from Golden Rule just like "Silver rule" is the "negative" side of Golden Rule. It's all part of the whole Golden Rule package. But the bottom line for me? I find that as a parent, when teaching my kid that stuff, it's a whole lot easier to get to the point and teach the kid "platinum rule" kinds of words.

What does a kid know but to take things very, very literally? :rolleyes: I have encountered some adults are that way also -- very, very literal.

So I find it saves trouble all around to just leave no room (or as little room possible) for misunderstanding. Just spit it out from the get go. "Treat others how they want to be treated" as a little maxim idea I find useful.

It could encourage approaching and asking the person -- "How do you want me to treat you? I'd like to be treated like this. Could we talk about that and get to know each others preferences?"

Couldn't trying that approach help the OP become more assertive about stating their needs?

If I ask the other guy how he'd like to be treated first, then explain some things I need as examples, it makes the other guy more agreeable to engaging in larger conversation with me about negotiating needs for all. Better than if I were to come at the other guy all bossyboots with "I need ____" kinds of laundry lists that could be misread as "demands" and get them on the defensive.

It's only a suggestion for the wording in the end -- others are free to use whatever phrasing serves them best when relating/negotiating with the people personalities they are dealing with in RL.

GG
 
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I understand it fine, nycindie. That was the whole point I was trying to make, though probably not as cleanly as I could.

"Platinum" is just derived from Golden Rule just like "Silver rule" is the "negative" side of Golden Rule. It's all part of the whole Golden Rule package. But the bottom line for me? I find that as a parent, when teaching my kid that stuff, it's a whole lot easier to get to the point and teach the kid "platinum rule" kinds of words.

What does a kid know but to take things very, very literally? :rolleyes: I have encountered some adults are that way also -- very, very literal.

So I find it saves trouble all around to just leave no room (or as little room possible) for misunderstanding.

Yes, we can all wiki and google those terms and find out that "platinum rule" and "silver rule" were made up by people who didn't understand the Golden Rule, which has been around for ages (having been derived from a Bible verse), or authors who wanted to make a buck by selling books to people who didn't understand the Golden Rule. Using those silly terms doesn't make it more clear. Yes, kids are literal creatures, but how come I and a zillion other people always knew what the Golden Rule meant? You want to be treated nicely, treat others nicely - hello! What's so complicated about that? Adding platinum, silver, copper, tin, or whatever else other rules you want just takes people further away from the nugget of its message. This is what is known as "dumbing down," and then we have people saying things like, "Why would I serve my lover eggs the way I like them instead of the way he likes them? I'll go platinum and fix the eggs his way." Eventually people just start making up and using nonsense words and terms instead of investigating the actual meanings of the ones that confuse them. That is as bad as using verbs as adjectives and adjectives as verbs, just to look clever.
 
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Yes, we can all wiki and google those te

No, a lot of people can't wiki and google because their fingers can't do the walking and their brains don't work right.

eople just start making up and using nonsense words and terms instead of investigating the actual meanings of the ones that confuse them. That is as bad as using verbs as adjectives and adjectives as verbs, just to look clever.


Case in point: "trinogamous"
 
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Yes, kids are literal creatures, but how come I and a zillion other people always knew what the Golden Rule meant?

Because you (and the zillion other people) are at a different place in your six maturities. And not everyone is at the same place at the same time.

Adults might all look "adult" from their outsides but not everyone develops in all their maturities at the same rate. Chronological and physical maturities are the only ones that come "automatic" at the same rate for everyone. Every birthday clocked leads to automatic growth in those. Intellectual, emotional, social, and philosophical maturities have to be worked at to grow.

I'm with BG -- not everyone knows how. They come here for support and who knows how old the other person is on the other side, their background, personality, education level, culture, native language, environment etc. are/have been.

I'm not trying to dumb anything down -- I'm trying to find common ground and common language. If I get too corny sometimes doing that... ah, well. I enjoy corny humor at times and sometimes it falls flat. *shrug*

Again, I'm not trying to argue. YMMV -- I find thinking of things that way as helpful to me. Some won't find that approach useful. C'est la vie.

Galagirl
 
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Because you (and the zillion other people) are at a different place in your six maturities. And not everyone is at the same place at the same time.

Adults might all look "adult" from their outsides but not everyone develops in all their maturities at the same rate. Chronological and physical maturities are the only ones that come "automatic" at the same rate for everyone. Every birthday clocked leads to automatic growth in those. Intellectual, emotional, social, and philosophical maturities have to be worked at to grow.

I'm with BG -- not everyone knows how. They come here for support and who knows how old the other person is on the other side, their background, personality, education level, culture, native language, environment etc. are/have been.

I'm not trying to dumb anything down -- I'm trying to find common ground and common language. If I get too corny sometimes doing that... ah, well. I enjoy corny humor at times and sometimes it falls flat. *shrug*

Again, I'm not trying to argue. YMMV -- I find thinking of things that way as helpful to me. Some won't find that approach useful. C'est la vie.

Galagirl

I agree with you. If you take for example my parents; both well in their fifties, successful business people both, not stupid in general. Yet when it comes to "the golden rule" they have a very literal view point. If they like it, everybody should like it. If they find something weird, it IS weird.

They feel that because they appreciate it when people ask for help, they always say yes, everybody should feel that way. Personally, I feel much more comfortable asking for help when I know people feel free to say no as well.

Because they want to be successful in business, everybody should want to want to be successful in business.

Golden rule doesn't work for them. Although, platinum rule wouldn't work either, because they refuse to conceive of the notion that other people might want other things, or find other things important...
 
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