Don't know where to turn

Joy

New member
Hi, I'm new here, and not sure I'm in the right place, but I just feel so lost and frustrated.

Here's my story. I'm a mostly straight woman in my late 30s, married with two young kids. I have had a number of relationships over the years, and I'm ashamed to say that I cheated, many times, when I was younger. I don't excuse or forgive it, and I disliked myself for it even as I did it. I have learned as I have matured that I am not monogamous by nature (not that I think cheating is an acceptable form of non-monogamy - I absolutely do not) but for many years I didn't know that "non-monogamous" was a valid thing to be, and thought I just needed to suppress it and "behave" and just be "normal". So that is what I did. I married a wonderful man and we have wonderful sex and two wonderful children. But I don't feel wonderful.

Early in our relationship, I floated the idea of opening it up. He was open to talking about exploring things like threesomes and swingers clubs, but ultimately when the kids came, he wanted to "settle down", and we never did any of the things we talked about (which were the bare minimum of what I'd like).

Once my youngest was no longer a baby and I started to feel human again, I broached the idea again. This time more confidently, with a better understanding of who I am and what I want. It was met with a sorry, no. I continued to bring it up over the next couple of years, and after much reading, therapy (together and solo for me), unrealistic compromises, discussion, and honesty, we're still in the same place, and I just don't know how to cope with my feelings.

I love my husband, I love our family. I love the way we run our home and the way we co-parent, and we have a lot of fun together. I've chosen to stay and give up my desire for additional relationships and sexual freedoms. But even though I know he's the "normal" one, I have a hard time truly understanding his position. I genuinely don't see how us dating other people takes away from what we have together. People tell me that I'm selfish and unrealistic - that I want to have my cake and eat it, too. Well, yeah! I do! And I struggle constantly with what seems like an arbitrary limit we put on ourselves with the perception that we can't have a happy marriage *and* a boyfriend or two. But I have accepted that I can't have it all, and have chosen my marriage, but although I haven't and won't act on it, the longing just doesn't go away.
 
People tell me that I'm selfish and unrealistic - that I want to have my cake and eat it, too. Well, yeah! I do! And I struggle constantly with what seems like an arbitrary limit we put on ourselves with the perception that we can't have a happy marriage *and* a boyfriend or two. But I have accepted that I can't have it all, and have chosen my marriage, but although I haven't and won't act on it, the longing just doesn't go away.

Sorry, pet peeve of mine, but I don't see how poly is "having your cake and eating it too." Maybe it's "having lots of slices of cake"? But unless you want the freedom to date and sleep with others, and forbid (either explicitly or passive aggressively) your partner from having other relationships, I don't see how there's anything hypocritical or impossible about it (which is how I view that phrase, like, I want to be really thin and fit, but I want to eat McDonald's every day.)
 
I agree that it's an inappropriate phrase, and to clarify, it's not how I'm looking at it - it's what's been said to me by people I've sought advice from (including a therapist I no longer see). I don't think it was meant to tell me I'm hypocritical - I would absolutely love for my husband to have a girlfriend or flirt ir anything in between. I interpreted it as them thinking I want more than I'm realistically entitled to, and that's what I have trouble understanding. It seems like such a false dilemma to me, the assumption that you can have a happy marriage OR be non-monogamous but that both is unattainable. I don't believe that to be true in general (though because my partner is unwilling, I suppose it unfortunately is for me). I just wish I could get my head around what it is that seems so impossible to people (including my husband who has tried to express it but it always comes down to "it's just not how it's done")
 
Sorry, pet peeve of mine, but I don't see how poly is "having your cake and eating it too." Maybe it's "having lots of slices of cake"? But unless you want the freedom to date and sleep with others, and forbid (either explicitly or passive aggressively) your partner from having other relationships, I don't see how there's anything hypocritical or impossible about it (which is how I view that phrase, like, I want to be really thin and fit, but I want to eat McDonald's every day.)

For many people, being in a committed relationship means eschewing others. The "have your cake and eat it too" refers to wanting to have a committed relationship but still wanting the ability to have other relationships.

You can't still have your cake if you eat it.
You can't be in a committed relationship if you're dating someone else.

Not saying the last statement is correct, but it's definitely a change of mindset for someone who is monogamous, and can be extremely difficult to Grok.
 
I just wish I could get my head around what it is that seems so impossible to people (including my husband who has tried to express it but it always comes down to "it's just not how it's done")

In monogamous relationship, you only tend to have multiple relationships if you're in the "dating around" stage. Once you've decided you're committed to someone, you stop dating around. You "settle down".

For monogamous people [*], this is really a difficult thing to accept. If your SO now wants to date around, it feels like a demotion. That you're not a "partner" anymore, you're one of many, and you're back in that "dating around" phase again, which doesn't mesh well with being someone's spouse or partner. It is a struggle to understand the way a Poly person thinks and feels when you think and feel very differently



[*] Whether this is hard-wiring or societal, I won't really get into. It's easy to conflate the two, and like the old "nature versus nurture" debate, I think both influences are valid.

I'm mono. I had a LOT of mental and emotional wrangling after I got into a relationship with Chops, and that was knowing that he was poly (and thought I knew what I was getting into). I didn't "get" the way he thought and felt, and my feelings got hurt a few times. Conversely, he had no idea why he'd stepped on a land mine when he did, since he just doesn't get the way I think and feel, either. It took a lot of reassurances, talking, introspection, time and experience - for both of us. As the time and experience grow, the need for the others is diminished, but not gone.
 
For many people, being in a committed relationship means eschewing others. The "have your cake and eat it too" refers to wanting to have a committed relationship but still wanting the ability to have other relationships.

You can't still have your cake if you eat it.
You can't be in a committed relationship if you're dating someone else.

Not saying the last statement is correct, but it's definitely a change of mindset for someone who is monogamous, and can be extremely difficult to Grok.

Totally get it. But I think it's worth pointing out to the people that DO say it. Every time I point it out like that (the way you have it written out), the person realizes that, when they think about what it is they've said, it makes no sense.
 
Stop going to therapy. There's nothing wrong with you. The truth is, you're the only one who can figure out what works for you.

My suggestion is to keep talking to your husband. I'm not suggesting you keep asking him "hey, can we be poly now?". I am suggesting get to know him on a deeper level.

He sounds like he has a very rigid, set in stone view of you, himself and his world - a very role centered view. This helps him feel emotionally safe and valuable.

Keep talking to him anyway. Get to know each other again. Over time, see what happens with these conversations. At some point he will either start to snap out of his rigid ways, or he won't.

These ongoing conversations, and how both of you feel about having them, will eventually show you some things about him and yourself.

Everyone changes over time, which causes changes to happen in the relationships they are in. See where your changes take you.

Eventually, you will know what your options are, and you will have to make a decision for yourself. Have these conversations with him. Take your time with it. See where it takes you.
 
Would you feel happier in the marriage if he would talk to you about your poly side? Not (open up the marriage.) But (open himself up to hearing about that side of you)?

Galagirl
 
I just wish I could get my head around what it is that seems so impossible to people (including my husband who has tried to express it but it always comes down to "it's just not how it's done")

Do you think you would be any more successful explaining what it is that seems so impossible about being fulfilled in a monogamous relationship? Will the falcon ever understand why the trout likes swimming so much?

Don't underestimate the power of socialization. "That's just how it's done" is the reason humans do a lot of things.

The reality is that transitioning from a closed to open marriage is a crap ton of work. It means lots of uncomfortable, icky feelings for your husband. It means giving up something he's grown accustomed to. Some people just don't like change. So, from his perspective, why should he do all this hard work for something that isn't really going to benefit him, other than by having a happier, more fulfilled wife?

In case you're interested, the reason monogamy caught on is because agriculture forced people to stay in one place and start fighting over finite resources (farmland) where previously there was abundance (nomad foragers). With land ownership, the concept of nuclear family and known heredity made sense, and then some idiot wrote it all down in some big book and pretended it was divine law, and the governing bodies realized this would make it easier to control people (since cultures who share freely are far less likely to accept domineering leadership) which was nice because then they could get those people to do all the labour while they lived the good life. More or less.
 
Stop going to therapy. There's nothing wrong with you. The truth is, you're the only one who can figure out what works for you.

Yeah, that's a bunch of bullshit right there.

Going to therapy doesn't mean something's "wrong" with you. Indeed, in my experience, there's a strong correlation between people who are generally "fucked up" and people who flat-out refuse to even consider going for therapy.

People who go to therapy are those who realize that no matter how smart or happy you are, professional help can get you through tough times with a whole lot less headache and heartache than banging your head against the wall, alone in your little corner.

It's like... getting a tune-up doesn't mean something's wrong with your car. It's a strategy for ensuring that your car runs better and is less likely to give you problems when you need it most. Now, some people have the knowledge and experience to do their own tune-ups, but some people have different strengths, and so they get a professional to help out. It doesn't mean they're stupid or inept or incapable of dealing with their own problems. It means they're smart enough to acknowledge their own limitations and get help when it's appropriate.
 
I feel for you

I feel I understand. I feel very much the same in my marriage. The biggest difference fof me being I did have an open marriage. I had a girlfriend my husband and her husband were all involved, but their jelousy end it and now I'm living a life knowing my hubby is monogomous. Swinging fine, shareing love nope. It's been very hard daily for me being shut off from something I feel I need. We have two young children and one on the way. He wins for now. But I can honestly say I don't know what life will be like 5 years from now. Because my husband whom I love, cannot meet all my needs. I wish you the best in your pursuit of happiness. -Cari
 
I'm sorry you struggle. :(

Would you feel happier in the marriage if he would talk to you about your poly side? Not (open up the marriage.) But (open himself up to hearing about that side of you and provide safe emotional space for you to express that all out in)?

If you need more support processing your feelings and want to try counselor again -- bring a copy of this and seek a poly-friendly counselor for yourself. If you cannot express to spouse at this time, perhaps you would feel better being able to express to a poly-friendly counselor.

It seems like such a false dilemma to me, the assumption that you can have a happy marriage OR be non-monogamous but that both is unattainable.

You are married to your husband. At this time? You can have a monogamous marriage with him or be non-monogamous without him. It is what it is.

"Happy" is where you find it. If you are unwilling to accept he has no polyship desire at this time, then you probably are not going to be happy with each other in marriage. Pushing his buttons on it is not going to make him EAGER to polyship with you.

You already state you are not happy cheating on him. And at this time you wish to continue the marriage. So could accept your current limitations as part of the price of admission -- at this time there is no polyshipping here.

I just wish I could get my head around what it is that seems so impossible to people (including my husband who has tried to express it but it always comes down to "it's just not how it's done")

  • Because not everyone wants to polyship or deal in multiple loves or the intensity that sometimes brings. Just because you want something doesn't mean your partner does.
  • Because resources (human and nonhuman) are limited -- time, money, transportation, etc.
  • Because there's not always easy for people to find role models or resources to learn HOW to relate in polyship well. More than before certainly, but access is another thing. Pitfalls can happen from not being well prepared before leaping. So can poly hell.
  • Because they are not on the same page for what open model relationship they want to practice together or how they agree to be together in it.
  • Because not everyone has the intrapersonal skills or interpersonal skills right off the bat or the willingness to grow them. Being able to see the other guy's POV is a vital interpersonal skill -- one you state you are having trouble with right now.
  • Because people have core beliefs that make polyshipping hard to deal with.
  • Because society is set up to be monoship friendly, not polyship friendly. (ex: tax breaks, custody laws, etc)
  • Because not every set of family/friends/community is supportive or willing to be supportive of the polyshipping persons. (At best, they avoid. In some cases, hello job loss, custody battles over kids, property damage, assault, or hate crimes.)

I think you or others could probably add to the list. It doesn't mean it cannot be done, but like everything else, it comes with a price of admission. HOW it is done will vary for every person. Some people don't want to go there because it is a lot of work, and/or its a price they don't want to pay right now.

Everyone can choose what they are up for and what they are not up for relationship wise. There is nothing wrong with either monoshipping or polyshipping. Your husband is not up for polyshipping at this time. He wants to monoship. Could accept his position at this time, and process your disappointment in appropriate ways.

It's your call really -- what do you value more at this time? Being with him and paying the price of admission (monoshipping) or being free to polyship and paying the price of admission (not be with him romantically)? You state the marriage.

So it's about HOW to be in this marriage then so you can be happy within it.

Back full circle --- if the core thing for you at this time within the marriage is wanting to be understood as having a poly side that wants expression? Could ask him if he's willing to Open up to hearing those things from you if you are willing to be in a Closed marriage. Meet each other half way. See if that serves you both better marriage wise.

It is hard to be married to a partner who doesn't want to know all of you -- or that a whole other side of you exists. Could not pull away from each other -- lean INTO it. Could create the emotional intimacy required so a mono-poly Closed marriage CAN have a shot at "happy."

I could be wrong and totally off base, but that's my suggestion for you for you to consider.

HTH,
Galagirl
 
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I Don't Know Where To Turn

Joy,

Looks like your husband was more "experimental" , or at least to seriously discussing it, until the kids arrived. I think part of that may be now with the added responsibilities of children, he may feel he has more to "lose" by taking a chance on any kind of non-monogomous relationship. There is no "normal" or 'not normal".
I agree with those that say you should have therapy because if you feel strongly and continue to be unfilled, eventually you are going to cheat in one manner or another. You may find that you are actually able to live monogomously, or you may not.
If you keep pushing your husband too much, he is going to get defensive, followed by suspicious, and it can go downhill from there.
Nothing wrong with discussions about it, IF he wants to discuss. A lot of men think they can handle the wife or partner with other, and find when the real world happens that they cannot handle it. From what you describe, it might be easier to start your husband off with talk about "swinging" first, because that might make it less threatening if you establish firm ground rules about no emotional commimttment, which if the children have caused his gravitation to monogomy, might be causing his reluctance to even seriously talk about it now.

Good luck
 
I can't thank all of you enough. Just to be able to have this discussion and talk openly with people who aren't immediately rolling their eyes or thinking I'm a slut is so nice.

It's been an eye-opener to see a few people talk about not "pushing" him, which I didn't mean to do but now realize i may have been. We've cycled through resentment, defensiveness, and suspicion and are in a good place now as far as communication and honesty go, but we have a tendancy to talk about it, then things get sad and awkward for a bit, then we settle back into the usual flow til it comes up again. But I think about it daily. I have specific crushes I think of wistfully, and general longings I'm aware of always, but I think he still keeps hoping I'll just get over it. I didn't think I could, really. But maybe as has been suggested here, just having him accept that about me would go a long way toward feeling the need to act on it.

Thank you, all.
 
One of the things that Richard and I did when we entered the lifestyle was to create a bunch of boundaries- rules and guidelines that we put in place and were committed to them. Living a poly lifestyle was my idea and he had never considered it before had no experience whatsoever, so I slowed myself down and entered at a rate that he was comfortable with.

I was the one that wanted this, so I took charge of the situation. We started as swingers and started having "meet and greets" with other couples. It didn't take long before we were meeting couples where he was attracted to the woman and the fact that they were open to being sexual with us (within their own certain boundaries) was what started opening him up to the whole idea.

So- that's how I convinced my partner to enter into a poly lifestyle and we have not looked back- going into our 5th year as poly..... No regrets!
 
Greetings Joy,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

Book recommendation: "Sex at Dawn: how we mate, why we stray, and what it means for modern relationships," by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá. Read it yourself, and then ask your husband to read it if he'd be willing to.

When you get done with that, you might also find this second book recommendation to be helpful: "Opening Up: a guide to creating and sustaining open relationships," by Tristan Taormino. Again, read it yourself first, and then ask yourself if it's something your husband would want to read and if you think he'd benefit from it.

The point in reading these two books would be to establish that *responsible non-monogamy is a valid option for many people.* It's not to prove to your husband that he's wrong in being monogamous. It's just a way of asking him to consider another perspective.

It's also a way for *you* to not have to feel like you're crazy just because you desire non-monogamy. It's not wrong, pathological, or abnormal to have non-monogamous desires. Lots of people have them, as the existence of this site attests.

The advice/feedback the others have shared with you on this thread has been top-notch. I just want to add those two books to the equation. Again, start with "Sex at Dawn," and then move on to "Opening Up." That's my recommendation.

Good luck, and keep us posted on how things are going.
Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter" :)

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Ah, yes. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Boy, did I hear that line a few times back when my husband and I nearly separated over this issue. Though I was terrified to lose him, I didn't back down when he resisted. I made it clear that this was important enough to me that I would walk out of our marriage if I had to, and if he couldn't work with me towards a new way, we were doomed. It wasn't exactly an ultimatum, but I did make it clear 1)that I loved him and wanted to stay in the marriage, but 2)I was unlikely to be happy in the marriage without some measure of openness.

I was so frustrated by how many people automatically took his side and said I was supposed to suppress such desires. Or others that said I should scrap the marriage and go search for some hypothetical partner(s) who wouldn't expect monogamy. I was faced with a lose-lose situation: leave my loving marriage, or give up on being truly fulfilled relationship-wise.

Luckily, my husband did some soul-searching, and agreed to give it a shot. Since then, we've BOTH had to make compromises and step out of our comfort zones. It is certainly not perfect: I'd like LESS rules and more openness, and he'd love for me to just forget the whole thing and decide monogamy is the way to go. But, our marriage feels stronger than ever, we communicate more and fight less, and there is no longer talk of separation.

Stay honest with yourself and your husband, and hopefully the path will reveal itself. We're rooting for you!
 
Joy,

Seems to me you are getting two types of advice. One thought, expressed by "Love Bunny" basically says that if you want to have an open relationship you basically just have to give your husband an simple choice either you get what you want or he can leave. If you choose his course make sure you arer prepared for the worst possible scenerio. In her case, they apparently separated over it but got back together. There are no guarantees that will be your outcome. This option seems much more risky but only you can decide that.
The other option, I think expressed by Gala Girl is to keep talking in a non demanding way and see if things change over time. That way seems to give you more of a chance to maintaining your relationship with your husband at this time.
Non-monogomy cannot succeed in the long term if one of the parties feels that were threatened or coerced into it. My wife wanted to have sex with other men, and I was open to swinnging with certain boundaries that we both agreed on. I was fine with her doing anything she wanted, including sex with multiple partners, as long as the boundaries, i.e. no emotional committments, were kept. This worked for a while and then she wanted to change the rules to stop swinging and move towards I guess what you could call polyamory and wanted to start dating without me around or even knowing what was going on, claiming that was more fulfilling and exciting for her. Eventually, I had enough of that, I had never agreed to that and told her if we did not go back to our previous agreements that our long term marraige was over. My point is with no compromise and honoring agreements it is not going to work.
As others have said,it is what it is, you have two choices, go slow, talk, compromise, or tell your husband what you think you need and that that is the way it is going to be. Only you can choose.
 
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