Turnabout

It's so ironic. Five years ago, Sundance suspected I had feelings for Butch. He broke into my locked briefcase, to read my private journals. I had written a few things down, that I had a secret crush.
(I freaked out, that he had invaded my privacy. Felt emotionally raped. But..... he had suspicions, that were not entirely imagined, so I SORT OF figured it was "justified," right?)
I admitted to the feelings. But I promised not to act on them, and I reassured Sundance that I loved him and wanted our marriage.

After that, Sundance started snooping through everything he could find, everything I wrote down. He was obsessed! He wanted to know what was in my head, in my heart. He was devastated to think I had feelings for anyone but him. I was equally devastated that he kept invading my privacy.

My friendship with Butch progressed and deepened and eventually crossed over into a mutual emotional affair, then stolen physical moments of hugging and kissing, then a blow job. Sundance suspected all along. But I downplayed my involvement. Then Sundance hid audio tapes in our house, and heard us on tape.

(Again, I was freaked out that he had spied on me and taped me, but this time I figured, he was really justified).

I confessed. I said I love you, Sundance, I want to stay married to you. I will stop with him. I fought my feelings, and there were stretches of months where I stayed away from Butch. I would journal through my feelings, hoping to get them out, hoping they would go away. I journal to get honest with myself -- I HAD to, for my sanity. Sundance would still read my journals, all the time. I would hide them, he would find them. I would rip things up. I was a paranoid wreck.

After months of trying, and fighting, I broke my promise, AGAIN. Sundance taped me again. And caught us again, early on.

Finally, I admitted -- I was in love with Butch, and I couldn't help myself, and I was not going to stop. But I loved Sundance and wanted our family to stay together. So .... we agreed to a V, and I found this forum! :)

After we agreed to poly -- I found tapes hidden under my bed. Sundance was secretly taping Butch and I, having sex! Even after we had all agreed to it, and we were being 100% honest! I thought it was just because he was getting an erotic, voyeuristic thrill -- which was partly his motive. But he was also scared that we were lying to him -- that we were secretly plotting to run off together.

Once he realized (from spying on us and listening to the tapes) that we were being 100% honest, that we weren't planning to run off, AND I FREAKED OUT ON HIM FOR SPYING ON ME, after he SWORE AND SWORE AND SWORE he wasn't doing it anymore..... he stopped.

Ironic then, that he hardly gives TWO SHITS now about what I blog here. He is only interested in the things I want to hide. He is only interested in my SECRETS. Kind of creepy.

Then again, now look who's being paranoid, suspicious, and all obsessed with HIS true feelings? Yeah, me. I'm creepy, too. :(
 
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Carma said:
I might be able to forgive. To understand "why" he lies, to empathize with his fear. But can I live with it? . . . do I love him, or the man I thought he was? How much of the true Sundance do I really know, to love? And again -- just because you love someone, doesn't always mean you can live with them . . . Who am I to withhold forgiveness??? . . . But by his lying, isn't he abandoning me, in a way? . . . I HAVE forgiven him, time and time and time again. I have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he has exploited that benefit. I have enabled him. I have helped to perpetuate his habitual lying. I have done no one any real favors.

Yes, you can forgive someone and still make a choice not to tolerate that behavior. Forgiving is the ability to have compassion, to acknowledge the hurting that person has inside them, and to let go of resentment. You can forgive him, but not being willing to tolerate that shit anymore is for YOU. But then you have to forgive yourself as well. I have a feeling that is the more difficult thing for you to do, Carma. But you have to have compassion for yourself. Sundance has abandoned you in many ways, and you have abandoned yourself, too, by pooh-poohing your own needs, mistrusting your own desires, and not standing up for yourself. If you do walk away, it could be very empowering, and it doesn't mean that you don't have compassion and forgiveness for Sundance if you do. In fact, it could be a very loving thing to do. But I would try and see if there is anything to salvage first, with the help of professionals. Maybe there is some low-cost or free counseling to be had in your locality? Either way, I know you have the strength to face whatever comes.
 
I thought that you had moved to a roommate type relationship .... in a temp.. short term ...space finding way.

Forgiveness for each others past lies and behavior is good and recommended for a healthy marriage but may not be required for this roommate arrangement.....perhaps a simple acknowledgement and move on.
Your lies and deception ...blowing his friend, etc, ...all in the name of love doesn't make it right....his behavior, lies and deception regarding his intentions or feeling toward Barbie as some kind of pay back also isn't right...and doesn't make what he's did right.

Is he going back in time and bringing up old lies and past grievances or is your mind spinning to make sense out of things???

Time to get proactive I think.
 
Is he going back in time and bringing up old lies and past grievances or is your mind spinning to make sense out of things???

Time to get proactive I think.

This is a good question. I will pass on some of what I learned in counceling. If stuff is continually being thrown out/brought up during an argument, then the issue is still a topic that needs to be discussed and dealt with. You guys need to have a serious discussion about it and what can be done to move into forgiveness.
 
I guess it's a bit of both. I felt blindsided, after we had agreed to be a V and yet he still brings up what happened before AND ties it in with after, expressing contempt for me fucking another man. One of his most frequent comments is, "I don't LIKE it; I TOLERATE it." But in the beginning, there was a lot of compersion, at least I felt there was.

As for "blowing he friend" -- a little background on the guys' friendship, in a nutshell: Butch was our neighbor, but he and Sundance were both only the "hi neighbor" type. We'd get together for family picnics and visit in each other's yards, but they were just polite with one another. They are both loners. Butch has colleagues and college friends he golfs with or goes out for a beer; Sundance does not have ONE SINGLE close male friend. The only thing that made these two men friends, is ME. Sundance came to see what I see in Butch. And we both have an immense amount of sympathy for all the hardships he has endured the past 3 years -- lost his profession, got divorced, and was diagnosed with a serious heart condition (only 20% heart function :( )

Anyway, I feel like Sundance wants monogamy, and he is fucking pissed. He wants it with ME, not Barbie. He said the other day, "The problem is, if we live like roommates, but we're still technically married, I will not attract the caliber of woman I would want to be with. I will have to settle for women like Barbie, who sleep around, and with married men." I can see where he's coming from. But if he would have let me meet her right from the start, he could have been honest with her. He could have even asked HER for fidelity, even! At this point, he is NOT sleeping with me, so he could be monogamous with her, and ask her if she'd be willing to do the same.

I have no idea what he and she actually do talk about, so who knows, maybe this conversation has in fact taken place between them. But to ME, he says she is promiscuous. And flighty. Scatterbrained. Not really the girl for him. But I guess he's settling - ? And mad as hell about that!?

Going from lovers to roommates isn't the smoothest process. :( I think we are both struggling with it. There is mourning going on. And right now, we're both resentful of each other, blaming each other for the break-up of our marriage. I say, it wasn't either of our "fault" -- it was the relationship and our life's circumstances that weren't working. Who knows what will develop in the future. At least we're not moving our kids into some shitty little apartment or something.

I did tell Sun that unless he looks for a job closer to home, I don't see much hope for a real marriage again. He lives a split life. (We can't move there). I will always suspect he is with Barbie up there, and have no way of "checking up" on him. I'm not going to be the little fool back home. If he wants to be honest and have her up there and me here, she and I meet and respect each other's place in his life, that's one thing (but he has proven he can't really do that). Otherwise, we are roomies. Or he moves out.

He said he will NOT leave his home or his kids. He says if I want out I will have to leave. Well, for now I'm staying put. As long as I don't have to force myself to be sugary sweet or romantic with him, I'll be okay. I can be pleasant, as long as he respects me and our boundaries.
 
If you do walk away, it could be very empowering, and it doesn't mean that you don't have compassion and forgiveness for Sundance if you do. In fact, it could be a very loving thing to do.

There is an AWESOME song by Marie Digby called, "There's a Beauty in Walking Away." I don't know how to post a link, but it's worth checking out. :cool:
 
ISundance does not have ONE SINGLE close male friend. The only thing that made these two men friends, is ME.
This is not good. He needs male friends!

Anyway, I feel like Sundance wants monogamy, and he is fucking pissed. He wants it with ME, not Barbie. He said the other day, "The problem is, if we live like roommates, but we're still technically married, I will not attract the caliber of woman I would want to be with. I will have to settle for women like Barbie, who sleep around, and with married men." I can see where he's coming from. But if he would have let me meet her right from the start, he could have been honest with her.
Ugh, two things: Did you SAY the bolded part to him or did you keep it to yourself again? :cool:

Also, SD's comment about the caliber of women and who dates a married man really says a lot about his attitudes about women in general (hello, madonna/whore complex much?) and that also speaks to what he really feels about polyamory. I bet that's why he never told her about his having your consent to date. I suspect that somehow, his being okay with it all (for the period it was all working) just got to be too much for him because he has his prejudices and societal programming to wrestle with about monogamy, what marriage is supposed to be, and what a "good woman" or "good wife" is. Was he raised Catholic?

. . . he says she is promiscuous.
This sounds like another dig at the kind of woman who is independent and owns her sense of sexual freedom. Anyway, did he use condoms with her?
 
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Sundance's father was abusive AND a philanderer. His mother was the perfect victim.

I was the Catholic one! Hahaha!

You are sooo right on, Cin!

His dad's abuse made him close himself off to men. But Sundance slept with literally THOUSANDS of women, his entire life until he met and married me.

Yes, I did mention to him that if he'd been honest with her at the beginning, this could have gone differently.

Oh please don't make me answer that last question. It WAS rhetorical, right?
 
Oh please don't make me answer that last question. It WAS rhetorical, right?
Um, nope. I wasn't asking for you to give me the answer, though. I do hope you and he discussed it and you know the answer. And if he either wouldn't tell you or you don't believe he did, then that's reason enough not to be having sex right now, until you two get tested. I'm sure you and Butch play safely?
 
Thanks for clearing up the relationship stuff ....from the Butch and Sundance story I assumed they were friends first ....and thus he (sun) had to deal with the betrayal of his friend as well.

What is their relationship today??

What is Butch's take on all this ....or is he just glad to be getting some.

So you call it off with Butch and you explain your reasoning and it ends as friends ....then a week or so goes by and you call and say lets meet ....were back on .....and at this point whats he say?.....thank god you called I'm so horny ....or wait you said the last time your marriage was in the balance ...this could be a set up??or test?? maybe we should wait ....what ? Does he really care about your marriage??? in the sense he wants it to continue.



So Sun has clearly stated what he wants ...You in a mono relationship....but is that something you can ...or want to do. You ended it with Butch for week ?


This roommate situation is not going to bring anyone closer ...you know that right....

He flat out told you what he's going to look for....whether he'll be able to attract that is a different matter. And I actually might know what he's talking about .....the women that would be morally and socially compatible with him are going to steer clear of a guy with this type of baggage....that's my guess.....women may not want to invest time and heart only to be dumped for the guy going back to the wife who he's got the children with. I'm sure that's written about in every woman's magazine....cautionary tales.
 
Talk about promiscuous! He's slept with thousands of women, he's shagging one now, and you aren't sure he's using condoms.

He's a narcissist. And a liar.

Oh dear lord.
 
Dinged, You make it sound like Carma "only" gave it a week before she went back with Butch as if she had little willpower, fortitude, or dedication to her marriage. But remember, Sundance made a deal with her and went back on it. He said he would stop seeing Barbie if she stopped seeing Butch. Carma accepted, and broke it off with Butch. Sundance continued to see Barbie, which nullified the deal. Furthermore, he gave his okay:

I stopped seeing Butch for one reason -- so Sundance would stop seeing Barbie. It didn't work -- he just stopped being honest!!!

He's still talking to her, alot, and sexy texting with her, and they tell each other "ILU" and "ILU2" at the end of their texts. And she came to his office and rubbed up against him. He admitted all this to me last night, and I was so happy he finally told me! I told him how much is honesty means to me.

He's been asking if I've seen Butch, and pretty much intimating that he would be ok if I did. Which I felt was a set-up, so I resisted. I felt he was just telling me to go so he could say, "Well, then I'm going to be with her again, and it's ALL YOUR FAULT." But he SAID "I'd be fine with it."

So today I met with Butch.
 
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Cindie,

I didn't make it sound like anything....I was asking if this is something she is willing to do and wanted to do.....she had said before that her will power was a concern for her....and she recalled early in the affair making such promises and failed ....and that now she felt as if she was being tested....and that she hoped she wouldn't cave into temptation....and delivery from evil....sorry... that last part just seem to flow.

How can they negotiate any sort of arrangement if the top 2 sticking point are each others deal breaker.

Carma,

If he wanted to be mono with you ....then why did he continue with barbie....or is that going to get in the subjective shades of grey...part of bs lies you were told.
 
The reason I said It was rhetorical is -- I'm sure you can write this one out.

He TOLD me he would use a condom.

Then when he described their second escapade..... I asked, "Sooo.... when exactly was the condom put on/taken off?" CLEARLY there wasn't one. He admitted there was not. And hadn't been the first time, either.

I should have known.

The next time I was with Butch, I brought a box of condoms. I told him Sundance was not using protection with her, and my safety had been compromised. If I was willing to risk my health,* that's my business but I wanted Butch to know there was a risk now. :(

We used the condom, but it ended up slipping off somewhere in the midst of our lovemaking. :( We felt like a couple of stupid teenagers. The next time Butch and I were together, he chose not to use one.

*I know, I know, I know. What Sundance did was terrible, and I am a fool to risk my own health. I know. I never mentioned it here on the Forum because I knew people would be disgusted with his behavior, and I should be ashamed that I didn't care enough about my own health to be more enraged. I was ashamed of him, and of me. :( A terrible example of irresponsible behavior, not at all like the loving way of polyamory. But it was more than that -- I was in denial. I didn't want to admit that I am not safe with him.

I'm also in denial that I should go get tested. :( I guess I'm just hoping no symptoms appear. :(

I must say it is a HUGE relief not to be sharing with his girlfriend anymore -- a complete stranger, who he says is sleeping with at least 2 other guys besides him! (He may be lying about this, I don't know. To make me think she isn't all that into him, that they really aren't all that close, after all. Stupid, though, because either way, he loses! Either they are exclusive, and he's lying to me about it, or she is exposing him to all kinds of shit I don't want brought back to me, or Butch!)

I guess I also accept that sex is never going to be risk-free unless you are EXTREMELY vigilant. At the very least, I was honest with Butch about the risk involved. I wonder why he didn't ask me to stop sleeping with Sundance??

Which leads to Dinged's questions about Butch's reactions (or lack thereof!) to my decisions regarding Sundance. I guess he feels he has no rights, that this is what he signed up for. He saw us at our best; he has always believed in our marriage and wanted us to be together in the end. Whenever I share my distress with him over something Sundance has done, he always helps me try and see it from Sundance's perspective. I think his biggest fear is that HE will be blamed if we break up. So he's trying to avoid that - ? AND -- I think he doesn't want to see my kids go through a divorce, like his did.

My feelings for Butch have obviously compromised my marriage, no doubt about that. But Sundance AND I have some deep-seated issues that are contributing to how this all played out. I don't believe you can blame a third person.

I am embarrassed to send this reply. I know most people are really adamant about safe sex practices. I guess a part of me feels like I'll get what I deserve, for trusting him, for pretending I'm not at risk, for encouraging him to sleep with someone else, for falling in love with another man and putting my husband in this position.... I reneged on our marriage contract, and even though polyamory sounded like a good solution, it wasn't good for Sundance, at all. If I get something, it's pretty much a payback, I guess. Then again, there are VIRUSES out there. I'm not going to live my life like some kind of germophobe. Maybe it's not that I "deserve" to get anything -- but I've seen innocent people get things, too, so I feel it's just a part of life unless you are celibate.

Okay, I'm going to submit and take the wrath.
 
I'm also in denial that I should go get tested. :( I guess I'm just hoping no symptoms appear. :(

What would you say and do if your kid came to you with this story? That kid would be tested already, that's what.

Time to put on the big girl panties and take care of business!!! Go get tested IMMEDIATELY!

Being embarrassed is understandable, ignoring reality is not. No more denial shit, your an adult with KIDS that depend on you, go take care of business.
 
I was asking if this is something she is willing to do and wanted to do.....she had said before that her will power was a concern for her....and she recalled early in the affair making such promises and failed ....and that now she felt as if she was being tested....and that she hoped she wouldn't cave into temptation...

If he wanted to be mono with you ....then why did he continue with barbie....or is that going to get in the subjective shades of grey...part of bs lies you were told.

EXACTLY what I was wondering!!!! He told me he wasn't continuing with her, yet he was talking to her still (he did admit to this, and even that they'd done some "sexting") and she came into his office. He insists they didn't have sex but I didn't believe him, the way he was so cavalier about asking, "So, did you meet with Butch today?" as if it were no big deal if I had!

I was not tempted, actually. When I ended it with Butch, I was prepared to grieve. I was committed to ending it, because I was going through so much hell with Sundance. I didn't want to share him with a stranger; he didn't want me to meet her. FINE, then poly is out! I was willing to do anything to get Sundance to stop lying to me, to get him to feel safe enough with me to be honest about things.

After 2 weeks of him still talking to her daily ("about work," he'd say, but I did not believe him) I did feel he nullified the deal. Going back was not about caving in to temptation, as it had always been in the past -- this time it was a conscious decision.

His office is too far away, and he has told me too many little white (and big dark!) lies throughout this affair with her, for me to ever trust him again, as long as he works there.
 
His office is too far away, and he has told me too many little white (and big dark!) lies throughout this affair with her, for me to ever trust him again, as long as he works there.

The where is not the issue, even the fact that they work together is not the issue. The fact that it's 2 hours away just makes it more difficult to check up on him (not impossible). If he really wanted to, he could work 5 minutes away and still find away to lie and cheat or he could work 3 states away and be completely honest and faithful. Don't confuse your ability to trust him with your ability to check up on him.
 
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Oh, Carma. Everything you just wrote made my blood turn to ice and my chest get tight. Unprotected sex with a woman he doesn't really know well and who he says is promiscuous? What if you got AIDs? Symptoms don't show up for years, she could easily have it and not know.

How would you tell your kids why they were losing their mom? What if Butch got it too and it tipped his already delicate condition over the edge and he died because of it? What if you didn't know what you had... AIDs, hepatitis... and one of your kids was in an accident and needed an emergency transfusion, no time to test, and you told them to use your blood? What if you gave one of your children a death-sentence disease?

How can you not get tested?
 
I've been reading your posts for a while but haven't commented because it just raises such emotions in me, it comes too close to what I've experienced, although not in my adult relationships but with my (non-biological) mother.

You do realise you're married to a lying, manipulative person? What he does to you is emotional violence. And you're acting just like so many victims of abuse: you're blaming yourself for everything. You're not only taking responsibility of your own actions (as you should), but taking responsibility for all that happens. Your finding fault in yourself for the things he does, too. You're still often writing as if all your current problems are due to you screwing up in the first place (by falling for and doing things with Butch). That's what being around an abuser will do to you.. :(

It's good that you've come here and got support, but it's not enough. Do you have any help for women in abusive relationships in your area? Somewhere you could visit, or call? These are not poly problems, but problems in your marriage. I'm afraid that you won't be rid of all his manipulation at least as long as he's living with you (although I think separate bedrooms is a VERY GOOD idea, to start with).

I know we're only getting one side of the story, but there are so many alarm bells going off in my head that I can't even count them.
 
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