Matt's Thoughts

Matt

New member
I met my leading lady in 1999. She told me she believed in polyamoury. I had questions, and I said I'd try to deal with it as it came. No promises. No guarantees. I needed time. I stuck to that. Never reached acceptance. Only tolerance.

Around this time in 2000, she met Snowflake. I didn't know much about her. I wasn't around her much. I never experienced this compersion stuff you all speak of. I knew who she was. To be blunt, she really wasn't in my thoughts. It wasn't DADT, but the relationships were completely separate, at first.

2002-2008 were fairly normal years. New marriage, work, education, etc. Snowflake wasn't involved in our marital decisions, and there were no specific boundaries broken. I didn't have a problem with her back then. Then again, it wasn't like I knew her on a personal level. She was in her lane. I was in mine. My marriage was half mine then, and what I said actually mattered to the woman I loved.

In 2008, the Mrs. and I decided to start trying for the first child. By March, she was pregnant. This is when the first problems hit. I wanted to bond with my leading lady over the life we had created. It was our first kid. I was going to be a daddy. Excited, nervous, worried, and more in love with her than ever. I was at every doctor's appointment and part of the whole shebang. Snowflake was, too. I didn't like it. It made my wife happy, but I felt like she was just too close for my liking. I sucked it up as long as I could. The day our daughter was born was the day that changed everything. Snowflake was in the delivery room and holding my kid shortly after she was born. It didn't sit right with me. I held my tongue and kept in mind that was a happy time. I wasn't going to let her steal my joy.

A few months went by, and Snowflake wasn't involved that much. Her career didn't permit it. When she did get too close, I let her know that, no disrespect, but we need time to gel as a family. That could've been wrong, but it was what I needed. She backed off and gave us the space. As the kid got older, she became more involved--when she wanted to. I coined it as selective parenting. Choosing to be a dad on M, F, and Sun., if it doesn't interfere with my plans? Nah, I don't believe in that.

Snowflake thinks differently. She thinks being there from time to time is enough. Nah, buddy. Why weren't you around for the hard stuff? She can't blame it on scheduling conflicts. She changed jobs to one that allowed her to have a more normal schedule and more off time. My Mrs. didn't stop her from being involved. My say didn't matter, so I was silent. The kids just weren't her first priority.

Somewhere between 2010 and the start of 2011, my resentment reached a higher than usual level. My Mrs. had given her the a-OK to be mother #2. I found out after. I tried on many occasions and over the course of that year to let her know that I wasn't game or on board.

When the end of 2011/early 2012 rolled around, I was a mad son of a gun. Hearing my kid call Snowflake mum pierced my heart. It didn't sit right with me. She got to be a de facto parent, and she hadn't done shit to prove she was even serious about it. That wasn't cool. My kid was calling her mum, so she had become attached to her. It was too late to stop it then. It infuriated me because this is what I had been trying to stop. I can't count the number of times I pulled my Mrs. to the side and told her what I needed or how this made me feel. It became redundant, but I wasn't going along with her idea of big happy polyamorous family, so why would she want to hear me?

I was forced into sharing my kids with this person because of my lady's decision. Suddenly, I not only had to check with my Mrs. as far as plans, but I had to ask an outside person if she had any plans for the weekend with MY kids. I'm going to call it like it was and still remains. That's some bullshit.

I work hard, and my hours are long as my wife's. When I walk into my house or have free time, I'm devoting most of it to my wife and our kids. With this person having these rights, I couldn't just make plans without checking in. It felt like my plans had to be approved by mothers #1 and #2. If I wanted to take my kid to see Shrek the Musical, do you know I had to ask Snowflake if she had made any plans before I could purchase tickets or make plans? I can't tell you how many times I had to compromise to make accommodations and concessions for makeshift mummy's plans.

Before anyone asks why I didn't fight or rebel against it? I did for years. When I dared to say no, all hell was raised. How many times did I hear she's as much of parent as you are and she loves them? That made me angry. I love them, too, and I wanted to spend time with them without having to get the OK from a non-parent. I was ill every time I heard that. It reached a point when I just got sick of fighting with my wife, backed down, and accepted that I wasn't going to win that war. I buried my feelings because they were being ignored anyway.

My Mrs. was pregnant with our second kid, and in the spring of 2012, she had to have surgery. Snowflake and I became her support system, and I started hanging out with her. I wanted to know why my kid had become attached to this person. What was it about her? She was a decent person, but not what I'd call parent material. Feelings came up. In December, we became a couple. Things were straight until I realised I couldn't do because I'm a one woman kind of guy, and my guilt was stronger than the feelings. I pulled away from her. I let her know what the deal was.

I needed space and time alone with my wife and kids. too. I communicated that in the form of asking her to call before coming by. She complied at first, but whenever my Mrs. was home from her trips, that went out the window. It became a vying for my wife's attention and time situation. Boundaries were stepped over and kicked to the side. I didn't think wanting time alone with my wife and kids was unreasonable. I work with Snowflake, so I was seeing her various times throughout an 8 or 10 hour day, and then I'd be seeing her again after work, for dinner, and then sometimes the following morning if she stayed the night. Can I live and breathe without you being a constant presence? That's all I asked for, and I couldn't get that.

She was around too much. Too involved in our marriage, too. I felt suffocated. I found out some things that didn't sit well with me. She had veto power. So not only did she have as many rights as me or my wife, she had the power of veto. "What the fuck" was the first thought that hit me. That was news to me. I found out what she didn't want to move and that she and my Mrs. were making other plans without asking me how I felt. My kids and I had lost the right to say anything regarding their futures? That cut deeper than a knife.

I have been there every single day and every step of the way. Even when I was gone for that two week period, I talked to my kids every day multiple times a day. I video chatted with them, too, so they could see me. I was mad at their mother, but I still kept in constant communication with them. My kid thought I was just gone on a trip for work. When I came home, her only question was if I had brought her anything? Nothing else to wonder about because she had been talking to me, telling me all about her days, telling me about her play dates, telling me about ballet practise, and telling me about everything that was important to her. Yet, I had lost the right to have any say with my kids.

I stopped feeling like the biological parent, and I began to feel like the third pseudo parent, and it hurts to feel that way. I'm not willing to accept Snowflake as a parent. She bowed out from being a parent because she was upset with me. So what? I don't like her, and I still tried to let my kids have a relationship with her until I found out about her removing herself from my kids lives. My Mrs. didn't tell me that immediately. I found out in counselling, which is when I cut off all access. You don't get to hurt my kids and prance back in like nothing. Who died and made her queen of anything?

I've told my wife this, and I believe it. She's too forgiving. This person you love so much hurt your kids, and you just let her come back with no questions asked? I had to be psychoanalysed by a shrink and told that I'm emotionally abusing my kids by refusing to let them be around her, and she lets her get off with a slap on the wrist? Let's delve into this and see how much damage she caused my kids when she was mad at me. She left freely, didn't answer calls, and let me and my wife to have to answer questions about why she had bailed on them. That's not cool, and no shrink in the world is going to make me accept that.

Being in a relationship with my lady, being friends with her, or loving my kids doesn't mean she should've been granted that kind of say. The nanny loves them like her own, but I don't see my kids running behind her calling her mummy. It takes a hell of a lot more to make a parent than a title.

I felt undermined as a parent. I felt more like a sperm donor who had given a lesbian couple the children the always wanted than a father, so I suggested divorce. I consulted with lawyers. We had prenuptial and current post-nuptial agreements in place. The divorce would've been settled with no arguments from either side. Custody of our children? Nah. That would've been a contentious battle. We wanted two different things.

Some say my offer of divorce was a threat. It honestly wasn't. When you feel like you don't matter to someone and that they view you as expendable, why stay? I was hurting and the only one who didn't want to be part of a polyamoury arrangement any longer, so it made sense for me to leave and let her have the life she wanted.

I accept responsibility for what I did wrong, and I'm getting better. My stance on this is unwavering.
 
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I actually agree with you. From what I've read on your wife's thread and yours, I don't see Si as a parent in any way, shape or form. I'm sure she cares about your children. But in my opinion, when she was angry and hurt and didn't make any attempt to check on them in any way, that spoke volumes. And I suspect if your wife makes the choice to sever ties with her, you won't have to worry about telling Si she can't see the kids. I don't think she'll bother. Just my opinion.
 
I didn't address the state of our marriage. We have good days and bad days. We have misunderstandings. She's slipping back into some of her old habits of not listening to me, but I say something when I see it. It's usually met with resistance, but we talk about it. It's tough.

I came back from my holiday with the intent of trying to work with my lady and her ex. I don't know why I expected things to be different. I don't know why I'd put myself through any of it again. I listened to people who kept telling me that it wouldn't be right for me to make my wife choose. I listened to people who reminded me that I signed up for this and knew what I was getting into. I listened when people said that I was the one who didn't want to be part of it, so I needed to leave. I chose to try again and negotiate my needs. Back to the same old habits of making concessions and accommodations for her relationship once again? That seemed more like the outcome. I think I was being unfair and letting my feelings get in the way before I left. It's not my place to tell my Mrs. who to love or how to conduct her life. I've apologised for that. Not entirely sure I should have but yeah, I did.

My Mrs. ended her relationship, and it wasn't what I expected. It's a shock to go from three to two. I don't want to get used to it being two of us because at any minute she may change the playbook. I'm already not that comfortable due to the lack of trust, but it's been hard to adjust to it being two of us. I chose to sleep apart for the first few weeks. Not every night but a couple of nights a week. I don't want to get my hopes up that it will stay like this forever. I don't want to get used to waking up and seeing her in the morning. I can't expect my Mrs. to deny who she is for me. I find myself wondering how happy is she really going to be in this dynamic?

I'm sure people want to know why I changed positions in regards to my kids. A few weeks ago, I realised how big a of prick I was being after talking to my kid. She missed Snowflake and spoke highly of her. I put my feelings to the side and agreed to let them continue a relationship. Snowflake and I talked briefly. Long enough for some apologies to be issued. I realised what my kid wanted was more important than what I was feeling, so I went along with it.

My Mrs. said that Snowflake had been distant. I blamed my actions and treatment of her for that. I took responsibility and realised that I had been very mean to her. I even apologised for how I handled the situation. I told her she wasn't part of the family and didn't matter. Who'd want to be around after being told that? My Mrs. didn't offer up details like my kids had been calling her and the calls were never returned. She presented it like she was probably just busy. She didn't explain that contact was initiated by her every day. When I found that out, my whole demeanor and stance changed.

It became a problem when I found out everything that happened during the time I was gone. All the details came up and out in a session. How my Mrs. invited her to join them on outings, for lunch, dinner, ballet practise, recitals, and Snowflake ignored calls, text messages, and didn't bother to talk to them at all. I was fuming. I was upset with my wife for withholding info. We're in therapy to repair the trust, and she chooses to withhold info about my kids being hurt? Then, she expected me to be OK with them continuing a relationship after that discovery was made? I took the hard stance of not letting her ex be around at all. The Mrs. tried to talk me out of it. Urging me to consider how much it would hurt her and yada yada yada. What about how she hurt our kids?

The problem is my Mrs. continued to go against my one demand after all was revealed. I was wholeheartedly against it, and she knew it. Nothing in me could support it, and what happened this past weekend? Snowflake saw one kid on Saturday and the other on Sunday. It sent me right back to that place of feeling like I still wasn't being heard. I stayed away from her and stayed quiet because I knew I'd want to argue with her. I can't go for being disrespected. When I was ready to talk, I let her know.

That's how I got to where I am today. I didn't just wake up and decide to "alienate" her for my own self-serving purposes.
 
Just a few thoughts:

I'm glad you are learning to speak up when things are going askew. It happens, bad habits return by all involved. Remember, don't assume anything - don't assume that asking for someone to call before they come over automatically translates into "I need more time with my family" - guaranteed, it won't. Say what you mean and be direct. Also don't assume that everyone will remember to what was agreed upon. Reminders will be necessary for all, it's easy to slip back into old habits and that doesn't make a them a bad person or even mean they are doing it intentionally. If you have certain expectations that you think should be universal, don't assume your wife or anyone else sees it the same way. If you have certain expectations, spell it out then ask them to explain it back to you so you know your on the same page (surprise, she did not hear what you thought you said). This was a huge problem within my own marriage that we are still working on.

Your anger over not being told of Si's actions toward your kids while you were away is understandable. However, none of you have been in such a situation before, anger, hurt and resentments were running high on all sides, she screwed up. We all FUCK up when emotional and then later wish we could undo things we did, said or didn't do. I do think the hard line about not allowing her to make amends with the kids is premature at this time. Now this is not saying the 3 of you shouldn't sit down and discuss it, and draw up some boundaries and specifics about what is acceptable and what's not. Again remember, your wife "shielding you" from of Si's behavior is a old habit, bad habits are hard to break and it does take time. That you addressed what you saw as a problem immediately is good.

Did Si or your wife tell your daughter to call Si mum, or was it unconscious on you daughter's part? If it was an unconscious thing, let it go right now. There were 3 other women, my youngest would unconsciously call mom, both grandmothers and my husbands best friend. If he was around them for a few hours, he would just start calling them mom. At first I was hurt when he did it to husband BFF, until I realized that he also did it to the grandmothers too. Then he would start calling me or even BFF grandma, if he had been around either of the grandmothers for a few hours. Now it's just a big joke.

It sounds more like Si had the role of Godmother, Aunt, close personal friend who loves the kids, etc. It might be helpful to just drop the label.

Looking back, there are many things that I would change about how things happened during/after the birth of my kids if I could. Having my in-laws stay with us for a month afterwards - BAD IDEA! While #2 was better, I would still have liked to do some things drastically differently for my own peace of mind (now #3 is no longer an option). Sometimes, it's just not possible to know how you will view a situation until after the fact.
 
Yeah, mistakes were made by all. We're human and subject to fuck-ups.

I spelled out many things. I don't know how many ways. "I need time alone with my wife," can be taken. That couldn't have been more clear. Hints didn't work, so I spelled out exactly what I needed. That's why I kept saying I have been communicating and letting my needs be known.

The problem I have is I asked is there anything I need to know that might change my decision about letting this relationship continue? She said no. I already don't trust my wife much. I didn't feel comfortable with that answer, so I pushed the issue in one of the next sessions. If I hadn't done that, I probably would've never heard about any of it. Lies of omission and partial disclosure aren't going to make my trust in her go up at all. It wasn't an oversight on her part. She knew what the answer would've been if I had had that info when making a decision. By her choosing to withhold information, I wasn't able to make an accurate assessment based on all the facts.

As far as my kid, I don't think that was an unconscious move. If it was, it would stand to reason that she'd do it with any female acquaintances of ours, my mates wives, and even the nanny. I can't shake the feeling of coercion or a planted idea. I don't know if that's my lack of trust that's making me question everything, but that feeling won't leave me. She's been around some of these people all of her life, and I've never heard her call anyone else mum. That's why it bothered me at first, and the fact that she's continuing a few years later hasn't helped.

I've dropped the title, and I still don't want her around. Aunt, special friend, godmother, aspiring mother of the year, or however it is titled, I see no purpose that she serves. Could my feelings be in the way? Presumably. Tensions are still high. Volatility is still soaring. I've agreed to talk to her, but my stance on this isn't going to change. We can talk about everything but my kids. That could be the wrong approach especially if they end up back together.
 
As far as my kid [calling Si Mummy], I don't think that was an unconscious move. If it was, it would stand to reason that she'd do it with any female acquaintances of ours, my mates wives, and even the nanny. I can't shake the feeling of coercion or a planted idea. I don't know if that's my lack of trust that's making me question everything, but that feeling won't leave me. She's been around some of these people all of her life, and I've never heard her call anyone else mum. That's why it bothered me at first, and the fact that she's continuing a few years later hasn't helped.

I work as a nanny, only part time, and sometimes the little girl I've been caring for these past 2 years has called me Mommy, or even Daddy, by mistake. Common occurance-- heck, sometimes after spending time with my ex h's brother, I'd call my son by his uncle's name. I think those names are stored next to each other in my brain.

When my little girl (that I am nanny to) calls me Mommy or Daddy, we both giggle and she corrects herself. If I and her parents had *reinforced* it, I'd be another "Mommy" to her. But of course, it is corrected. There doesn't need to be coercion involved! That sounds so sinister.

I've dropped the title, and I still don't want her around. Aunt, special friend, godmother, aspiring mother of the year, or however it is titled, I see no purpose that she serves.

Her "purpose" as a close family friend, OSO of your wife, is to LOVE your children. What is more important than loving and caring for the little ones? Has she ever played with them? Fed them a bottle or a meal? Read them a story? Taken them for walks? Rocked them to sleep? That is her "purpose."

Could my feelings be in the way?

Your feelings are definitely in the way!

Your feelings are in the way, and you are using your children, who love Si, as pawns in your game of power chess with your wife and your former lover. That is just all kinds of wrong.
 
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I spelled out many things. I don't know how many ways. "I need time alone with my wife," can be taken. That couldn't have been more clear. Hints didn't work, so I spelled out exactly what I needed. That's why I kept saying I have been communicating and letting my needs be known.

Some of your responses on your wife's board also suggest you are still assuming a great deal and have expectations that when you say one thing, 5 other things should just be obvious. While in your re-building stages, no one can assume anything is just understood. It can be annoying when it seems so obvious to you, but it really does make a difference.

The problem I have is I asked is there anything I need to know that might change my decision about letting this relationship continue? She said no. I already don't trust my wife much. I didn't feel comfortable with that answer, so I pushed the issue in one of the next sessions. If I hadn't done that, I probably would've never heard about any of it. Lies of omission and partial disclosure aren't going to make my trust in her go up at all. It wasn't an oversight on her part. She knew what the answer would've been if I had had that info when making a decision. By her choosing to withhold information, I wasn't able to make an accurate assessment based on all the facts.

Would you have been reasonable and fair if your wife had told you everything? Would you have been open to any form of negotiation at that point or would you have gone to the extreme as you are now?

Trust is not re-built overnight, expect it to take years. This also goes both ways. You have to prove that you won't go ballistic and make unreasonable demands when she does tell you everything. This is something I am extremely familiar with. I hate playing 20 questions and feeling like I have to trick the truth out of someone. It leaves such a horrible feeling in my gut and brings back such super strong (sometimes overly so for the situation) emotions that it causes problems. I've learned to just explain what each "lie" did to me and what memories and emotions it brought back, knowing that, he has been less inclined to hide stuff. This is a bad habit that has to be acknowledged and will take work (by both of you) to unlearn. It's likely a habit that was developed in childhood.
 
all of your (and your wife's) threads just make me so sad.

you married a woman who was in love with someone else. You knew, but you managed to delude yourself that these relations were separate - but when your wife had a baby, a major event in her life that she wanted to share with BOTH people she loved, this was no longer possible.

downhill from there.

I just don't think you all see the magnitude of the mistakes you made. you keep saying ' yeah we made mistakes we're human after all?' but you don't really want to face the consequences of the fact that you all lied to yourselves and to each other. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I've been reading all your threads from the beginning and this is what I see.

And even in all the turmoil, there is no willingness to really look at yourselves and see what went down. Because if you really did? you would not be posting here. You would be talking to each other.

You call Si an outside person. She was not an outside person. She was your wife's OTHER PARTNER. They were together almost as long as the 2 of you.

and no one seems to address the fact that you became sexually involved with a woman you resented being part of your life. 'Feelings came up'? what feelings? lust, love?
I just don't understand any of this, at all.
 
Some of your responses on your wife's board also suggest you are still assuming a great deal and have expectations that when you say one thing, 5 other things should just be obvious. While in your re-building stages, no one can assume anything is just understood. It can be annoying when it seems so obvious to you, but it really does make a difference.



Would you have been reasonable and fair if your wife had told you everything? Would you have been open to any form of negotiation at that point or would you have gone to the extreme as you are now?

Trust is not re-built overnight, expect it to take years. This also goes both ways. You have to prove that you won't go ballistic and make unreasonable demands when she does tell you everything. This is something I am extremely familiar with. I hate playing 20 questions and feeling like I have to trick the truth out of someone. It leaves such a horrible feeling in my gut and brings back such super strong (sometimes overly so for the situation) emotions that it causes problems. I've learned to just explain what each "lie" did to me and what memories and emotions it brought back, knowing that, he has been less inclined to hide stuff. This is a bad habit that has to be acknowledged and will take work (by both of you) to unlearn. It's likely a habit that was developed in childhood.

I don't assume anything when it comes to the Mrs. I got swift kick in the pants when I did that. I ask her questions, expect the truth, but still have doubts. There's little trust, so I'm supposed to believe her word is bond? No, thanks. That's a set-up for disappointment. Talking does nothing. I need to be shown. It's a long process to earn trust back. Those white lies chip away at the trust that is there. Telling me what I need to hear to get what she wants or to achieve a goal isn't OK. Its been addressed, but it's a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud.

I wouldn't have went ballistic. I never have. I don't start off upset. People make me mad. People disrespect me, and I feel inclined to dismiss them or put them out of my house just like I did when the royal Snowflake and I had that argument. You can't respect me? You don't need to be around me. There's the door, and get the hell out. That's the real reason why she has been banned from our home.

No doubt I would've been upset. I have minimal tolerance now, so my response likely would've been the same. Reasonable? The odds aren't in favour of that. I'm missing empathy for Snowflake, so her feelings are irrelevant to me at this time. If I had taken another approach, it would've been for my kids. I tried it once, and that wasn't even a strong enough force.
 
I work as a nanny, only part time, and sometimes the little girl I've been caring for these past 2 years has called me Mommy, or even Daddy, by mistake. Common occurance-- heck, sometimes after spending time with my ex h's brother, I'd call my son by his uncle's name. I think those names are stored next to each other in my brain.

When my little girl (that I am nanny to) calls me Mommy or Daddy, we both giggle and she corrects herself. If I and her parents had *reinforced* it, I'd be another "Mommy" to her. But of course, it is corrected. There doesn't need to be coercion involved! That sounds so sinister.

Her "purpose" as a close family friend, OSO of your wife, is to LOVE your children. What is more important than loving and caring for the little ones? Has she ever played with them? Fed them a bottle or a meal? Read them a story? Taken them for walks? Rocked them to sleep? That is her "purpose."

Your feelings are definitely in the way!

Your feelings are in the way, and you are using your children, who love Si, as pawns in your game of power chess with your wife and your former lover. That is just all kinds of wrong.

I hear everything you're saying. I'm lacking the necessary empathy to give a damn about what she did in the past or the ability to care about her feelings. It's just not available.

I don't see the whole argument that I'm using my kids. I'm not using them to hurt her. She doesn't exactly cross my mind. Just like the old days. It's not a power struggle. They're not pawns in any game. I have just as much say as my wife does. When someone can prove that I'm harming my kids, I might reconsider. I don't mean some trumped up shrink telling me that what I am doing is wrong and will come back as soon as my kids are old enough to understand what it is that I'm doing "wrong."

Serious question. What should I do with my feelings?
 
all of your (and your wife's) threads just make me so sad.

you married a woman who was in love with someone else. You knew, but you managed to delude yourself that these relations were separate - but when your wife had a baby, a major event in her life that she wanted to share with BOTH people she loved, this was no longer possible.

downhill from there.

I just don't think you all see the magnitude of the mistakes you made. you keep saying ' yeah we made mistakes we're human after all?' but you don't really want to face the consequences of the fact that you all lied to yourselves and to each other. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I've been reading all your threads from the beginning and this is what I see.

And even in all the turmoil, there is no willingness to really look at yourselves and see what went down. Because if you really did? you would not be posting here. You would be talking to each other.

You call Si an outside person. She was not an outside person. She was your wife's OTHER PARTNER. They were together almost as long as the 2 of you.

and no one seems to address the fact that you became sexually involved with a woman you resented being part of your life. 'Feelings came up'? what feelings? lust, love?
I just don't understand any of this, at all.

Harsh? Not at all. I've looked at myself. I've had to face myself and every misstep. There is such as thing as talking too much, and it's not like my wife is even here right now. Feel free to point out all of my mistakes, since I can't grasp the magnitude.

The relationships should've been separate. No two relationships grow at the same pace. No two relationships have the same needs. No two people are even the same. What happened in her other relationship didn't significantly impact my life one way or the other. They never should've been one big relationship. I'll beg to differ until someone can prove that it's healthy to think of a relationship as one. No matter what those two relationships weren't the same. Two entirely different people. Two different sets of needs. Two different sets of aspirations and goals. She wanted her what's it called interdependent familial model, and I wanted to treat it as it was.

There's nothing to understand. I resented her after a certain point. I didn't always dislike her. The first eight years, she didn't even matter. Sorry if that's cold, but it's the truth. I spoke if I saw her. We had no mutual friends. Still don't. My resentment was and still is primarily towards my wife. She allowed all of this to go on. The royal Snowflake was just part of it. Someone had to be giving her the OK. In comes the wife. Who is the reason why all of this happened? My wife and her wanting what she wanted. True. I fucked up. Maybe I should've tied her to a chair and demanded that she listen.

I dated her and slept with her a couple of times. That was short lived. I didn't feel right, so it stopped and never started again. Shit happens, and you move on. I didn't start resenting Snowflake until I felt like she was just overstepping, making decisions on her own, and becoming a habitual line stepper. I can't blame her for everything. Did I enjoy sharing certain moments with her? Nope. Did I go out of my way to make her feel welcome? Nope. I dealt with my resentment in an appropriate way. I had no problem asking her to back up and give us space. She respected it at first. I grew tired of having to make concessions and accommodations for her girlfriend, though. Did she really have to be around for everything? I don't think so. Nobody can package that and sell it to me.

Conspiring with my wife and making plans for my kids' futures without asking me? Making plans to do things with my kids without talking to me and expecting me to just accept it? You're doing too much. Step back and know your place.

FTR, getting involved with her was the biggest mistake of my life. I regret it every day. I wish I had never been involved or slept with her. It was not worth it. I complicated things with my error in judgement.
 
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I got quick question I hope I didn't miss it if it has already been mentioned but is the nanny moving with you? Again Sorry if that has been adressed.
 
Serious question. What should I do with my feelings?

Let me try to remember your background... correct me if I am wrong ok?

Well, how long has it been now? Two months ish? You had the "time out" to cool off. When you came back you wanted no part of Si yourself. But were prepared to stay in a polyship where your wife was seeing Si still. You were surprised when wife broke up with Si.

You have been going to couple therapy to repair broken trust in the marriage so any divorce plans were put on hold.

MARRIAGE

So you are now at this place:
I don't assume anything when it comes to the Mrs. I got swift kick in the pants when I did that. I ask her questions, expect the truth, but still have doubts. There's little trust, so I'm supposed to believe her word is bond? No, thanks. That's a set-up for disappointment. Talking does nothing. I need to be shown. It's a long process to earn trust back. Those white lies chip away at the trust that is there. Telling me what I need to hear to get what she wants or to achieve a goal isn't OK. Its been addressed, but it's a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud.

Some say my offer of divorce was a threat. It honestly wasn't. When you feel like you don't matter to someone and that they view you as expendable, why stay? I was hurting and the only one who didn't want to be part of a poly arrangement any longer, so it made sense for me to leave and let her have the life she wanted.

Is wife meeting all your needs/agreements for you to stay in the marriage and NOT continue on the divorce plan? Are you meeting all your agreements and meeting her needs for her to stay in the marriage and for her NOT continue on the divorce plan? Is being in the marriage something you both still want and are you becoming more compatible so the marriage can be healthy?

You still feel like wife does not listen? Do not trust the wife since she doesn't disclose fully ? Harbor resentments towards wife?

Are you still willing to stay in it and do what it takes to be in it and repair it? Or are you done trying? Too little a return for continued investment? Where's your temperature at on the marriage front?

CHILDREN

Do you still feel like these things below in regards to the kids?

I felt undermined as a parent. I felt more like a sperm donor who had given a lesbian couple the children the always wanted than a father, so I suggested divorce. I consulted with lawyers. We had prenuptial and current post-nuptial agreements in place. The divorce would've been settled with no arguments from either side. Custody of our children? Nah. That would've been a contentious battle. We wanted two different things.

Do you still feel undermined as a coparent with wife and not valued by wife as a coparent? What are the "two different things" that you both want in terms of custody of the children?

THINKING OUT LOUD

This is just me thinking out loud ok? Let me ask this... Say you get a divorce. You (somehow) work out joint custody of the children and you are able to leave a polyship situation you dislike and establish a calmer, quieter home life for yourself.

Could you feel happier than you are now with your relationship with your wife? If her roles in your life were reduced to "co-custodial coparent" only? No longer wife to you? No longer roomie to you? No longer polyship partner to you?

How do you think you will feel about the time the children have with their mother, and their interacting with Si on ex-wife's custodial time?

Just as upset as you are now when they interact with Si? Or would it be better for you than what you have now because in joint custody YOUR days with the children are clear cut and you don't have to be checking in with anyone but yourself on your days to determine what activities you choose to do with the children (like go see Shrek or whatever?)

What are you feelings about that? Have you sat with those thoughts already?

You really can't sever the bond with wife of having created the children together. Even if you divorce and all that. Until one of you dies -- you, wife, or kids -- that bond is still there and you are still part of the kids lives. For the kid's sake as they grow, figuring out how to be civil to wife is better. Even if you still carry some resentments/distrust -- no need to color the children's graduations, weddings, births of THEIR kids etc with GRRR of the parent's clouding their every step for life.

But maybe you want YOUR daily life to be less nutty than it has been?

FWIW, my thoughts on this still are pretty much the same. That no matter how you slice it, there's going to be suckage somewhere. It's figuring out the path of least suckage then. I still think sorting that out is better with a cool head than a hot one. So... Where do you think that lies for you? The least sucky path?

I see that you continue to struggle and suffer. And I am sorry for that -- for both of your sakes. Nobody deserves suffering. :(

But 2 mos in is 2 mos in. I don't know what time frame you both set or even what bench marks you both set to measure as "enough progress is being made to make this still worthwhile to me" -- I guess I thought the counselor would help you guys lay that framework out so you chose realistic things for goals. One cannot rush healing. At the same time, one cannot put life on hold forever to deal in Crazy Town indefinitely.

But me in those shoes? I'd be tired of the crazy in my home life. If not divorce just yet, I'd be wanting a trial separation to at least catch a BREAK already in my daily living situation and get to step OFF the emotional roller coaster side of things even part time. I'd like to try something ELSE and see if that serves me better.

I'm sorry. I'm not sure that opinion is even helpful because I know I am not you and what I prefer in my life may not be what you prefer in yours.

But I do see you both still struggling. You both have to find your way -- either toward each other or toward a split or even toward a space (like a trial separation) where you can begin to make that call more clear headed and not all up and down.

You both deserve some peace. This neither here not there is exhausting for all parties. :(

In the end, I think only you can determine where that point lies with you -- the point of not enough return on your investment here to keep on investing more.

Namaste,
Galagirl
 
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Well, how long has it been now? Two months ish? You had the "time out" to cool off. When you came back you wanted no part of Si yourself. But were prepared to stay in a polyship where your wife was seeing Si still. You were surprised when wife broke up with Si.

Two long months. The above is correct. She could've kept her relationship. At that point, I don't think I even cared. That's why divorce came all too easy. Did and I do I still love my wife? Yeah. I'm still in love with her, too. I don't have any regrets like wishing I had never married her or anything. Did I care about her relationship after I came back? Nope. It wasn't my problem, so I was indifferent. The damage had been done.

Yeah, divorce is on hold for now. I made it clear that at if any point I can't do this, I'm done. Like I told her, I'm trying every option from A-Y. Z or divorce is the last resort.

Is wife meeting all your needs/agreements for you to stay in the marriage and NOT continue on the divorce plan? Are you meeting all your agreements and meeting her needs for her to stay in the marriage and for her NOT continue on the divorce plan? Is being in the marriage something you both still want and are you becoming more compatible so the marriage can be healthy?

She's meeting the relationship needs, for the most part. I wouldn't say 100%, but she's trying. I don't expect perfection. I know I'm not either. There's room for improvement on both sides. It's a work in progress. Some days are better than others. For example, the past couple of days have been better than the past couple of weeks. It's healthier than before.

You still feel like wife does not listen? Do not trust the wife since she doesn't disclose fully ? Harbor resentments towards wife?

I know she doesn't listen. I don't trust her because I know she leaves parts out that could have a negative impact. I don't have any particular set of resentments with her at this particular moment. Frustration fits. I'm not really mad or upset about anything.

Are you still willing to stay in it and do what it takes to be in it and repair it? Or are you done trying? Too little a return for continued investment? Where's your temperature at on the marriage front?

Yeah, I'm willing to try and stay. I'm not done trying. I might wake up tomorrow, and it might be another story. Today, I'm in. The return and the temperature are inconsistent and unstable. Some days the return is high and worth every pence invested. Other days, not so much. Some days I'm really warm towards the marriage and feel like it's without a doubt worth continuing the investment. Other days I analyse it like a financial portfolio, and it may not be worth it. Risk and analysis bid. Sometimes the risks of staying or leaving are higher than other days. The risks of leaving today are low. I expected highs and lows when we started the repair process.

Do you still feel undermined as a coparent with wife and not valued by wife as a coparent? What are the "two different things" that you both want in terms of custody of the children?

The only time I do is when she goes against something I request like keeping that ex of hers away from my kids. Other than that, no. Custody wouldn't be split evenly or anything close. If my wife were to have her way, she'd have physical and sole custody. I'd have every other weekend and every other holiday. Maybe summers or a portion if I'm lucky. I don't do part-time parenting, and the Mrs. knows I'd never go along with that. With plans like that, there's no way it would be a cut and dry agreement. If necessary, I would fight her for custody. That's not the most comforting thought, but I couldn't go along with allowing her use the kids as a pawn in her game of revenge for me leaving her. That's what would happen.

My idea was more along the lines of our kids visiting me every 1st, 3rd, and 5th weekend. Alternating weekends and more of an extended agreement than her having them Monday-Friday and me only seeing them from Friday afternoon to Sunday evening, alternating holidays, breaks, etc. I just feel like kids shouldn't have to suffer and spend very little time with a parent. It should be balanced as possible. My idea also included an overnight visit every week. During, I'll say the first week of the month, she would have them all day Sunday-Tuesday, most of Wednesday, and I'd pick them up on Wednesday evening and bring them back on Thursday. She would have them the remainder of Thursday, and I'd have them from Friday evening to Monday morning. That would be the start of a new week. She would have them the remainder of Monday and all of Tuesday. From Wednesday to Thursday, they'd be with me. She'd have them the entire weekend on that week, all of Monday, all of Tuesday, and I'd see them for the overnight visit Wednesday-Thursday. She'd have them the remainder of Thursday, and the first half of Friday. I'd pick them up on Friday, and return them on Monday. I hope it makes sense. It makes more sense on paper, and it's pretty simple to follow. Is this being unreasonable or unfair? What would you change?

Could you feel happier than you are now with your relationship with your wife? If her roles in your life were reduced to "co-custodial coparent" only? No longer wife to you? No longer roomie to you? No longer polyship partner to you?

Probably not. She'd likely be the ex-wife and custodial parent from hell. Divorce makes people lose it. Even more so if you're hurt or upset after. I suggested divorce, and it set her off. Imagine if I were to actually divorce her. The divorce may be a clean break, but I'd have more hell then than now. When I weigh the two, it isn't so bad where I'm at right now.

How do you think you will feel about the time the children have with their mother, and their interacting with Si on ex-wife's custodial time?

I still wouldn't be OK with it, so I'd be just as upset. If not more so. She'd probably have more say than me, and she'd still be around my kids, which is just a no for me.

What are you feelings about that? Have you sat with those thoughts already?

I have sat with all of these thoughts. We've discussed it all, which is why I know how she thinks. I'm trying to work with my wife. Sure she gets on my nerves. Sure there are days where I don't even want to be around her. It's still worth trying to save, so I'm going to put forth the effort and try to save it.

You really can't sever the bond with wife of having created the children together. Even if you divorce and all that. Until one of you dies -- you, wife, or kids -- that bond is still there and you are still part of the kids lives. For the kid's sake as they grow, figuring out how to be civil to wife is better. Even if you still carry some resentments/distrust -- no need to color the children's graduations, weddings, births of THEIR kids etc with GRRR of the parent's clouding their every step for life.

You're right. I prefer civility over hostility with her.

But maybe you want YOUR daily life to be less nutty than it has been?

Its been constant chaos and misery almost every day. Don't get me wrong. There have been a couple of bright spots, but the ominous presence of darkness has been present more often than not.

FWIW, my thoughts on this still are pretty much the same. That no matter how you slice it, there's going to be suckage somewhere. It's figuring out the path of least suckage then. I still think sorting that out is better with a cool head than a hot one. So... Where do you think that lies for you? The least sucky path?

For the time being, staying in the marriage provides the path of less suckage. The catch is her ex has to stay away from my kids, or it goes back to Suckville, UK. This past week would've been OK--minus my Mrs. feeling down about the state of our progress. Her ex was nowhere to be seen and wasn't around the kids. It's something about her ex that doesn't sit right with me. This was a happier week for me. I felt what my wife was feeling, so I talked to her and gauged her feelings. We've decided to seek another therapist and take a break until then. Just talking brought us a little closer. I'm still opting to stand-off and not divulge certain feelings, but it helped to talk. I understand her feelings and thoughts.

But 2 mos in is 2 mos in. I don't know what time frame you both set or even what bench marks you both set to measure as "enough progress is being made to make this still worthwhile to me" -- I guess I thought the counselor would help you guys lay that framework out so you chose realistic things for goals. One cannot rush healing. At the same time, one cannot put life on hold forever to deal in Crazy Town indefinitely.

We had framework laid out. Something in our household changes every day. We'll take a couple of positive steps forward and ten back. It's a constant pull between regression and progression. I'm tired of the madness in my home life. The only time I get a break is when I'm sleep. I'm not against a trial separation. I had the most peace I've had in many years when I was gone.

I'd like to find my way back to her, but I can't help but wonder if we've reached the peak together and just need to climb back down separately. I don't trust her, and it's hard to have a relationship with no trust. It can be earned back, but that can take years. Though our marriage has issues, the biggest issue of all is that ex of hers and our ideas of parenting and who should be involved. She wants her to be involved. I don't. That's the one thing we argue over. She's fighting that hard for Snowflake to be involved in raising our kids, but I wonder if she's willing to fight that hard to help save our marriage and earn my trust back.
 
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Sounds like you have given it a lot of thought and are realistic about the "repair process" having up and downs in it. Esp at the beginning.

Kudos!

She's fighting that hard for Snowflake to be involved in raising our kids, but I wonder if she's willing to fight that hard to help save our marriage and earn my trust back.

Well... could ask her. "Are you willing to fight that hard to help save our marriage and earn my trust back?"

Any response to that?

Galagirl
 
I'm sorry to read about your and your wife's misery. No one enjoys these fights and least, the kids.

My parents went through a divorce when I was about 11 years old. And in my country, with our super slow judicial system, that process was drawn out for 10 years. During which there was a constant tension in the house, sometimes shoutings, sometimes cold silences. My younger brother and I went through a real rough patch. I think that we still carry some of those negative feelings we had back then with us today, and that it's affecting us even now as an adult. I can be very insecure and suspicious at times and that leads to anger and that leads to having shout downs of my own with people I love...

My brother and I don't talk about those days, we didn't then and we don't now. We just moved on. But I know that we both have unspoken feelings deep down, perhaps even guilt. Yeah, children can feel responsible for their parents splitting up... But when I look back at those days now, as a 27 year old adult, I see how pointless it all was and how much potential for happiness they threw away. Today they both live separately, none of them remarried, and they both feel quite alone.

When we were young, Mom was the one to always wake up early and make us breakfast, drive us to school, take us out to the beach on holidays, etc. Dad was usually busy with work and didn't join us. We spent time with him when he was free, but I don't think he made much of an effort to make free time to spend with us. Even when we went on vacation, we went to visit mom's parents and dad hardly joined us for that. Neither did he try to plan trips that didn't involve meeting the in-laws, if that's the reason why he didn't join us in the first place. So fun time gradually meant Mom to us.

Dad loves us like crazy, no doubt about it. But he didn't spend enough time with us growing up... and that also means he didn't spend much time with Mom.

I wonder what would have happened if they spent more time together, without us kids. What if they started "dating" again... I wonder if they wouldn't have forgotten why they got married in the first place.
 
I finally had the chance to talk to my Mrs.'s ex. Apologies were issued on both sides. It was a productive talk. It lasted a few hours. We remained civil, and respect was present. There was no talking over each other. I heard her out, and she heard me out. We reached a level of understanding and agreement. Everything was addressed and put out in the open. Tension was thick but we managed and handled it like adults.

I apologised for how I conducted myself back in March. Some of the things I said were no doubt hurtful. I said many things in anger, and I should've tried to control that more than I did. I didn't mean it when I told her that I wished she had never been around. Fact is she has been just as long as me. She never was an evil person. I also apologised for making her feel unwanted and like she wasn't part of the fam. That was mean. We're not the conventional fam. I know there's no such thing as the perfect parent. I probably expected too much of her. Hell, I have room to improve myself. Each day is a chance to be better than the last. I make mistakes. Her cutting them off was a mistake, and she said she regrets doing that every single day. She wants to make amends and correct that. I legitimately believe she loves my kids. I don't think she meant to hurt them. I always had doubts aboutt her love and how deep it really was, but it was the way she said it. There was conviction and sincerity behind her words.

We cleared up a huge misunderstanding. Her lack of parenting wasn't because she didn't want to be there. She just didn't know what needed to be done, so she did what she wanted as she saw fit. She assumed that amongst the three of us, it was already covered, and she thought we didn't need the help. Like I told her parenting doesn't come with a handbook. You just go with it and fumble until you get it right. If given the proper chance, I'm sure she'd probably be good at it.

The topic of moving came up. She explained that she had reservations about moving, and she was worried about starting all the way over. She told my Mrs. towards the end of last year about her reservations. She said that back then it was just jitters, but that they still made backup plans. She apologised for going over my head and behind my back. My Mrs. already told me why she did it, but it helped having the other person explain her involvement. She always wanted to move and even planned on continuing to go after the reservations were expressed, and she didn't officially decide to back out until I told her she wasn't part of the family and that it wouldn't make much of a difference if she was there or not. I apologised for saying that because it does matter to my kids. Seeing my kid that sad killed me inside. I owed it to my kid to try and make peace. Snowflake is important to my kid. After our argument, she backed away from the plans because she didn't want to be somewhere that she wasn't wanted. I knew I was the reason but hearing it for myself made me realise just how I had treated her.

The plan was for her to move with the fam. The home we purchased was picked out by the three of us. We all agreed on it. My Mrs.'s ex decided how she wanted her in-law suite/guest house to look. She contributed financially. We were going to try a modified version of cohabitation. She would've been living separately but on the same property. She had lined up a new job, and all the signs pointed to her relocating. I found out tonight that she still wants to go and still wants to keep the plans, if we will still have her.

She apologised for how she reacted, everything she said during the argument, overstepping my boundaries, and making me feel undermined. That wasn't her intention. Her apologies all seemed sincere, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't give her a second chance. I gave my wife one. Before we fell out and before the feelings came into play, we had forged a friendship. I cared about her, and after talking to her, I still do. No denying that. I'd like to repair some of the damage and try to be cordial and maybe even friends again one day.

I don't see her as enemy like I did. Deep down, she's a good person. Hell, I dated her. Her judgement might not have been the best, but it's cool. I can't hate her for making mistakes. I damn sure made my share of them.

I don't know what the next step is. We've agreed that if she moves, we're going to therapy together. If not, we're still going to try to repair the damage. We can't fix this on our own. We owe it to the kids to act like we have sense and work together at least for their benefit. She offered to find a flat elsewhere if it would be too much of an inconvenience for her to still move in with us. I don't know about all that. She invested half of the funds to complete the renovation on the guest house. It's as good as hers, and we'd have to reimburse her if she moves somewhere else or doesn't move at all.

The Mrs. and I were talking about what had been discussed, but we chose to leave it be for the night. We'll pick back up when she comes over for dinner.
 
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Holy full-circle-city, Batman!

At least you finally came around after your daughter made her feelings known.

Have a good future.
 
So glad to hear all of this. One thing I had to keep emphasizing when the husband and I were working on things is the idea of working as a team. Making the team work takes a lot more coordination, communication and team meetings than just assuming someone else will be picking up the slack. Once you can work as a team, life seems so much less stressful.

OMG! Talk about a couple of hard headed oafs :D. You guys are going to have to work on that.
 
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So glad to hear all of this. One thing I had to keep emphasizing when the husband and I were working on things is the idea of working as a team. Making the team work takes a lot more coordination, communication and team meetings than just assuming someone else will be picking up the slack. Once you can work as a team, life seems so much less stressful.

OMG! Talk about a couple of hard headed oafs :D. You guys are going to have to work on that.

It probably will be easier working as a team than going it alone. I don't know. I'm used to being at odds with my Mrs. Working with her isn't in my blood. That's going to take work like a job. I need benefits or something out of the deal if I have to work with both of them.
 
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