Discussion on Forum Sociology and Interpersonal Dynamics

There is a difference between apologizing and "being sorry".

"being sorry" is when you regret something.

Apologizing is when you acknowledge YOUR part in something that didn't go right.

You do not have to "be sorry" to make a sincere apology. The two are neither interdependent nor mutually exclusive.
 
There is a difference between apologizing and "being sorry".

"being sorry" is when you regret something.

Apologizing is when you acknowledge YOUR part in something that didn't go right.

You do not have to "be sorry" to make a sincere apology. The two are neither interdependent nor mutually exclusive.


The guideline I follow is to be true to myself and others as much as possible and hope for the best.

It's not an exact science. :D
 
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There is a difference between apologizing and "being sorry".

You do not have to "be sorry" to make a sincere apology. The two are neither interdependent nor mutually exclusive.


I am curious though, about how that would go.

"I'm not really sorry, but I do sincerely apologize." (?)
 
Looks like you have something new to meditate about.

I was thinking just the opposite. Do you meditate?:D

Seriously, how do you think anyone would feel after hearing an apology like that?

What kind of response do you think I would get in this case from an apology like that?

If it sounds good to you, maybe I will start using it. :D

"I'm not really sorry, but I sincerely apologize." :p

Yep I like it. I like it a lot. :D

I reminds me of the phony used car salesman who read the book "Think and Grow Rich" and was all excited that he had learned all the secrets. He told his boss, --- > "Now all I have to do is learn to fake sincerity." :p

<warning sarcasm here>

I now want to take this time to say to all used car salesmen who might be reading this and who might be offended: I am not really sorry but I do sincerely apologize. ;)

</end of sarcasm>

I've had a lot of fun with this discussion.:)
 
@Olderwoman

It would help me more if you could simply answer the questions I stated very simply in my response, rather than going off on the tangent that I am oviously having difficulty understanding.

Yes/No would have worked a hell of a lot better. Your apology is mostly meaningless given the passive-agressive nature of your words above it. I will however, for my own sanity, accept the gesture.

Your words and the way you speak, I realise now, remind me of my ex (though not as bad) in the way you will cannot answer a question with a simple yes or no, and go off on a tangent designed to attempt to make me apologise to you for my "bad behaviour" in not understanding your thought process.

He has recently been tentatively diagnosed as a Borderline Personality, and has been extremely abusive towards not only myself but our children.

This similarity between your communication styles is what is setting me off. However, that said, I still do not understand you (I never understood him either) and will do myself (and everyone else) a favour by not trying to anymore. This is for a need to maintain my own precarious balance, and my own focus, this misunderstanding between us has niggled at me and that is not good.

I wish you all the best on here and hope you find what you are looking for.
 
@Olderwoman

It would help me more if you could simply answer the questions I stated very simply in my response, rather than going off on the tangent that I am oviously having difficulty understanding.

That post was a very long yes or no question. If all you want to know is if you understand me correctly, the answer is (apparently and clearly) ....NO.

At the risk of going off on another "passive aggressive tangent" I will summarize or rephrase my answer below:

I do my best to be true to myself and others and hope for the best.

(Communication is not an exact science.)

P.S.
Now I will go meditate and see if I can find the source of my passive aggressive energy.
 
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I am curious though, about how that would go.

"I'm not really sorry, but I do sincerely apologize." (?)
The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry. The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward. Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place. Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive. Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.
 
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The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry. The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward. Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place. Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive. Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.

recently something like this happened to me. i was at a roller derby game and one of the other referees took something i said the wrong way. although i definitely didn't mean it in a bad way, and i definitely thought he was over-reacting, i acknowledged that what i said was unnecessary and APOLOGIZED. However, I was not "sorry" for saying it because I didn't MEAN to offend. I didn't apologize in a hostile, sarcastic way like Olderwoman suggested ("I'm not really sorry, but I sincerely apologize" - that is NOT "sincere"), I simply said "I didn't mean it like that, but you're right, I probably shouldn't have said it at all."

So, Older Woman, THAT is how I apologize without being sorry.
 
This is the post with the yes/no questions I was referring to...

@Olderwoman

So am I now correct then in what I think you are saying?

That you are saying that you would only apologise if:

The offense was intentional (in other words; that 'in the moment' you meant to be offensive) - but you then regretted it later.

AND...

that you would also only apologise if you agree that what you said was offensive (that you, yourself, understand how you offended or were offensive) and you feel an apology is deserved by the other person?

BUT...

That if you didn't mean to offend, or cannot understand how you offended, you don't feel an apology *or at least explanation of your viewpoint* is warranted?

and if I may be heard clearly....

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.
 
The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry.

I guess that does not make a lot of sense to me because my understanding of an apology is the statement "I'm sorry." If you are NOT sorry, then the statement is not true.

The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward.

I understand this type of apology... "for the sake of the relationship" because that is where I found myself in my last marriage. I was constantly apologizing and assuming the blame for all the problems in the relationship (in an attempt to heal or save it.)" But this can be taken to the extreme... which is what happened in my case. It didn't heal anything, it just sucked the joy out of life and the soul out of me. (So here is the source of my trigger.)

The difference here is that I had not really hurt him. He was playing mind games. (Which a lot of people will do, so I don't necessarily or automatically trust people who claim to be "hurt" or "offended." There are too many games being played almost unconsciously.)

Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place.

My healing took place when I got a divorce.:D

Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive.

I tell that to people who wonder why I sometimes stop at green lights and look both directions.:p

Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.

Yes, an apology can keep you alive.:p;) (so can packing two suitcases and getting on a bus..:p; LOL

......But I don't think an apology should be symbolic of anything other than what it actually is. I think it should be true and sincere.

....unless of course your life is at stake. Then you can lie like hell. :D
 
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This is the post with the yes/no questions I was referring to...

Yes I know. I went back and re-read it.

The one word answer that you are requesting is still no.

The better answer is:

I will apologize IF I actually feel sorry.
 
Before my poly adventure began, I was fairly religious and belonged to a church (that turned out to be a crazyyy place, even by evangelical standards) but there is one thing in particular that was "preached" that I took away. On the subject of conflict resolution.
Sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we mean to, sometimes we don't. They may be crazy and overly sensitive. Regardless, if some one comes to us and is hurt by our words or actions, one of the best ways to restore friendship is to simply say, I am sorry I hurt you. or something to that effect. To apologize that your actions caused them some pain. I've found that that alone can do so much that the issue often dissipates. Especially if it was something minor to begin with. Perhaps then if they've hurt you too, you can ask them to apologize to you. I know that was/is a hard mental transition for me because I love to be right. And if I think I'm right then I sure as hell don't want to apologize for something that's probably your fault anyway. But that kind of thinking has never helped me mend any relationship. So I've been working on it.
 
Before my poly adventure began, I was fairly religious and belonged to a church (that turned out to be a crazyyy place, even by evangelical standards) but there is one thing in particular that was "preached" that I took away. On the subject of conflict resolution.
Sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we mean to, sometimes we don't. They may be crazy and overly sensitive. Regardless, if some one comes to us and is hurt by our words or actions, one of the best ways to restore friendship is to simply say, I am sorry I hurt you. or something to that effect. To apologize that your actions caused them some pain. I've found that that alone can do so much that the issue often dissipates. Especially if it was something minor to begin with. Perhaps then if they've hurt you too, you can ask them to apologize to you. I know that was/is a hard mental transition for me because I love to be right. And if I think I'm right then I sure as hell don't want to apologize for something that's probably your fault anyway. But that kind of thinking has never helped me mend any relationship. So I've been working on it.

Ray,

<warning:here is my soapbox philosophy>:p

I don't disagree with what you are saying. It is called politeness or common courtesy. It is considered a good habit when you deal with a group of people. It's like asking a person, "How are you?" and they will automatically respond: "Fine!" Or even like saying "I love you" and expecting them to respond, "I love you too." (And if they don't respond with "I love you too" as expected, someone is very likely to get hurt.)

I am not at all against these kinds of polite social interactions, but I have noticed people unconsciously carrying on lengthy meaningless conversations and greeting people and not truly connecting with them in the slightest.

It is like when the check-out person at the supermarket says "Paper or plastic?" and "Have a nice day" and their eyes never meet yours. Their minds are somewhere else and they don't actually care about your day or your answer. or you... ....and no one really expects them to...

We often walk around like unconscious robots, our brains just running programs (me included).. and we don't actually "see" or listen to people or actually connect with them in the moment. We don't mean half of what we say. We don't wonder who they really are. We are like actors on a stage reading the lines we have rehearsed and have been told (programed) we should say, because it is polite and socially acceptable.

It is not easy to live consciously in the moment. I have discovered that when I try it, and deviate from common programming, some people will often "wake up" for a brief moment, sometimes just long enough to be hurt or offended... or even shocked.

For me, it has nothing to do with "being right." It is an exercise in being conscious and true.(honest) not in being righteous. Following group programming can be easily learned and followed. Eventually you will fit in and become a cog in the wheel of your society and you can spend your time having meaningless interactions with strangers, never really connecting with anyone or getting to know anyone.

I believe that each and every encounter I have with any living thing is meaningful and that moment is all that exists. It is my goal to practice being in the moment. It isn't easy. I can't do it for long or even often.

So I sometime say "how are you? and "I am fine" and "have a nice day." and "Thank you" But I try to remember to look in the person's eyes and see the person behind them and really think about what I am saying. And I do say "I'm sorry" and "I love you" and I try to remember to say it only when I actually feel it. That is how I practice living consciously.

</wow... end of soapbox>:D
 
Originally Posted by Olderwoman
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.


pg 12 post 120. second to last paragraph...

isn't this apologizing without being sorry?

No, Of course not. It is apologizing without assuming blame.
To say "I'm sorry" without really being sorry would clearly be dishonest.

(There is a difference between "I am sorry you were offended" and "I am sorry for being offensive.")

The sorry is in the misunderstanding, not what was said.

Yes, but it was implied that I was "being offensive" and that I should plead guilty, admit it and apologize. I didn't feel that I should own those perceptions,(out of respect for myself) and at the time, I wasn't sure if anyone was really offended, or if they were just playing the game.

I am now thinking that we've just about beat this subject to death. :p

I hope someone is beginning to understand what I am saying. If not, then I have failed.:eek:
Feel free to destroy the evidence....:p:D
 
Originally Posted by Olderwoman
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.




No, Of course not. It is apologizing without assuming blame.
To say "I'm sorry" without really being sorry would clearly be dishonest.

(There is a difference between "I am sorry you were offended" and "I am sorry for being offensive.")



Yes, but it was implied that I was "being offensive" and that I should plead guilty, admit it and apologize. I didn't feel that I should own those perceptions,(out of respect for myself) and at the time, I wasn't sure if anyone was really offended, or if they were just playing the game.

I am now thinking that we've just about beat this subject to death. :p

I hope someone is beginning to understand what I am saying. If not, then I have failed.:eek:
Feel free to destroy the evidence....:p:D

If someone has been offended by what you have said, then you were being offensive to that person. It is not your responsibility to 'take the blame' for 'being offensive'. Acknowledging that perhaps what you said had caused someone to feel offended is different. And actually - looking back over all the posts... no-one actually asked you for an apology... that was your assumption.

You were 'taken to task' as it were for refusing to acknowledge that people HAD been offended, even though it had been pointed out - you refused to understand that they had been, or how.

Personally... you laughed that I found offense with a comment of yours I (and others) found sexist. Prior to which you had directed assumptions regarding my character and how I would direct my life following a question which was seeking other's personal opinions or experiences. After I found offense with the sexist comment you proceeded to call me 'delicate and fragile' because I stated that I was serious that I had found the comment offensive.
In your private responses to me you implied I was playing a game in order to get you to apologise. You also stated I was over-sensitive and dramatic.

All that and I still am not hurt, offended - yes. Expecting an apology - no. (Though I did accept the one you gave as you kept mentioning it and you refused to understand it wasn't an apology I was looking for) I was genuinely trying to understand how someone can have so little regard for what other people are saying... and so little care for how their own words affect the message they are sending.

From my perspective you simply do not care, either how you are perceived, or how you effect people.
 
I am deeply offended that no one has said anything about my example of apologizing without being sorry:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58405&postcount=130

I assume if no one says anything, then no one disagrees with it; but please don't debate about it as though the example was never provided.

that is all.

:D I didn't mention it because I felt it obvious this is exactly the point being put forward...

However :D ... WHAT NEONKAOS SAID... with bells on even :D
 
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