Gaslighting

SourGirl

Member
I am putting this in the 'New to Poly' section, as I think it is valuable to newbies who are struggling with new poly concepts.
If you are wondering on how much to give, or when things are 'normal growing pains' vs. being taken advantage of, this could provide some food for thought.


http://www.polyamorousmisanthrope.com/2011/11/02/on-gasslighting/

If it`s better served in the media section, feel free to move it.
 
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Is this a subtle cry for help? Sure you talk a tough game but now somebody's got into your head and you're just to proud to admit it. If you like why not use the ole ...." I got this friend who's in this relationship and she is thinking . ..." Wink ;) wink

Come on let us help you ....you'll feel better trust me.:D


PS
whats the photo of ....I know you like perverted photos. Am I going to be shocked or amused or both. Better not be related to leprechaun genitalia again ...you really need to let that go.:eek:
 
How`d I know your ears would perk up over the term 'gaslighting' ? You probably thought it was another housing question. :p

Be quiet you, or I`ll tell everyone about 'my friend' who has a band name and lyrics fetish.

and sweetheart,..there isn`t anything subtle about me. :cool:


Now help me, and get over here and fix my freaking water !!! $3000.00 later, and my water still works when it feels like it. Now its the pressure tank control switch they say,...sigh. Plumber blames electrician, electrician blames plumber,...'These are the Days of our Tradesmen Lives.'
 
I have enjoyed reading that blog before but I found this particular post rather tedious to read. I could barely finish it. I think the examples of giving rides to those people were just a bit too heavy-handed in trying to get the point across. I also get irritated when the popular culture has to find a new word for an old concept. Manipulation is manipulation. Now that people are calling it "gaslighting," new articles are being written as if we need new skills we didn't have before. Ugh. Well, at least the freelance writers and bloggers are getting some mileage out of it. Hopefully, they're getting paid.
 
Glad you liked it Opal. :) It is a well-liked site. I thought it to be a refreshing topic that can prove valuable when we seek reminders about the 'truth' about these things.


nycindie - It`s not a new term. It has been around since the 70`s. Not only around, but in useable language. The thread`s intent, is for what I have previously stated to Opal.

..and yes, it is manipulation. The point is that it`s a specific type of manipulation. A type that can be hard to recognize. It`s definitely a tedious talk, but often-seen subject matter. It would be difficult to pull-out the ferris wheel and big lights to 'wow' a viewer without personal stories added in.

dingedheart- You`re late !
 
Actually I'm going to move it to "general discussion" to irritate II (and likely others) and to fit with the eventual renaming of the forums... A few years from now. :p

Great link! :)
 
I started reading the linked article. (Didn't finish because it's now 4am and my alarm clock's set for 8am.) The author also uses the term "creeping concessions", a sort of "give him an inch and he'll take an ell" but in small increments that you have trouble noticing until it's too late.

I think that the example given (being asked to give a friend a lift -> ending up taxying more than one person wherever they want to go) might fit that, but I don't see the case for tying in gaslighting (the title of the article). I don't know the official definition of the term, I'm going by the film of the same title. But I'd say that gaslighting is a calculated and insidious manoeuvre to control somebody else by constantly putting them in the wrong, making them doubt their own judgement or memory, and making them depend on you, making them SOOO grateful that you're there to set them back on the right track whenever they blunder. Calculatedly creating a dysfunctional relationship based on co-dependence and inferiority complex.

In the film (and the original play), the villain's aim is actually to drive his wife completely crazy. The subject has come up on this board (in at least one case) where a wife took some time to realise that her oh-so-perfect husband ("I'm so lucky to have him!") was actually getting his own way in a selfish, spoiled-brat way by making her feel flawed, and lying to her. The realisation and its consequences have been very painful for her. Hence my interest in reading the article.

I can't see the example in the linked article as a case of gaslighting. If it is, it's in a very watered-down variety. No-one's going crazy, no-one's doubting their own memory (just somebody insisting that she said something when she didn't: her listener [supposed victim] knows that the speaker got it wrong). There no insidiousness about it all, no WISH to manipulate.

The article's about a group of people overstepping in asking for ever-increasing favours, and about somebody else who doesn't put their foot down and tell them so (allowing themselves to be taken advantage of). Gaslighting [as I understand it] is a LOT nastier than that. It's messing about with somebody else' sense of self-worth.
 
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to the lovely and talented Sourgirl,

Because I was pressed for time I didn't read the attachment and had no comment on the subject matter. My ears, eyes, and whatever, perked up because YOU started a thread....very rare.

I must admit when I saw the topic and your name attached I did think of actual gaslights ....my favorite hotel in the French quarter uses them for nightscaping....it has a very warm romantic feel....I'd love to see your eyes in that kind of light.

Its perhaps an obsession not a fetish. And for the record you're the one that hears the lyrics.

As for your plumbing problem (related to housing) civilization has its perks. ...pumps, tanks, pressure switches are unnecessary local gov do all that for you. This why you should hire a general contractor ....let him fight with the different trades or equipment manufacturer ...


As for the topic of gaslighting and the article ...the driver( douchebag 1 )was completely at fault ....should have asked on the first call what all the surrounding facts were and who and what type of taxi services he's willing to offer. I would have waved and honked as I drove by on day three....deal with the fallout later.


PS how is the roan ? and seriously whats the photo of ?
 
Hey MrFarFromRight,

Thank you for a insightful response. :)
I enjoy examining things from all angles, so it was great to read your pov.

The movie is from the late 30's or early 40's I believe ? Psychological reference to gaslighting was coined about the 70`s.
A quick sweep of my favourite search engine, tells me :

' A little known, form of abuse. Gaslighting, is an emotional abuse technique in which one individual creates self-doubt in another. ' *

The most complete, and basic explanation (paraphrased)I found was ;
' Letting someone else twist and define your own reality.' **

I think the author in the link, used a simplified story, to explain how confusing gaslighting can be. The fact is, who knows if those people asking for rides were being malicious or not. There is evidence pointing both ways.
And that,..is how gaslighting drives people crazy. There is usually no proof, just a feeling. In fact physical evidence to the contrary, is usually what keeps the victim moving in the direction of the manipulator.

The people in the story, could of been doing this to many folks, to keep getting 'free rides' without ever coughing up gas money. ( no pun intended). There are little clues to that, by how quickly they go from just being 'grateful' to having expectations.
Or they could of been ignorant, and clueless,...who knows ?

The other point I`d like to make, is that like many other forms of manipulation, gaslighting starts off small,..and the 'big things' come later.

How this ties into poly ?..you hit the nail on the head Mr.FFR, with your example.

There are many cases of confusion from both newbies and experienced people, where they cannot tell if what their spouse or partner wants, is a reasonable request, or 'right'. I see many times, people worry about the moral and ethical evaluation, and forget that it could possibly be the manner in which their spouse is going about getting what they want, that is the real problem.
There are many forms of manipulation. Blackmail, passive-aggressive tendencies, gaslighting, etc. If people are to be their own primaries, then this starts with keeping themselves educated and safe.

We just can't sit here and TELL people we think their spouse is wrong, and expect them to do better simply because we said 'We wouldn`t put up with that.' It would be nice if we gave them a bit more information to look into.


______________


* - www.associatedcontent.com

**- Are you being gaslighted ? - Psychology Today.
 
I started reading the linked article. (Didn't finish because it's now 4am and my alarm clock's set for 8am.) The author also uses the term "creeping concessions", a sort of "give him an inch and he'll take an ell" but in small increments that you have trouble noticing until it's too late.

I think that the example given (being asked to give a friend a lift -> ending up taxying more than one person wherever they want to go) might fit that, but I don't see the case for tying in gaslighting (the title of the article). I don't know the official definition of the term, I'm going by the film of the same title. But I'd say that gaslighting is a calculated and insidious manoeuvre to control somebody else by constantly putting them in the wrong, making them doubt their own judgement or memory, and making them depend on you, making them SOOO grateful that you're there to set them back on the right track whenever they blunder. Calculatedly creating a dysfunctional relationship based on co-dependence and inferiority complex.

In the film (and the original play), the villain's aim is actually to drive his wife completely crazy. The subject has come up on this board (in at least one case) where a wife took some time to realise that her oh-so-perfect husband ("I'm so lucky to have him!") was actually getting his own way in a selfish, spoiled-brat way by making her feel flawed, and lying to her. The realisation and its consequences have been very painful for her. Hence my interest in reading the article.

I can't see the example in the linked article as a case of gaslighting. If it is, it's in a very watered-down variety. No-one's going crazy, no-one's doubting their own memory (just somebody insisting that she said something when she didn't: her listener [supposed victim] knows that the speaker got it wrong). There no insidiousness about it all, no WISH to manipulate.

The article's about a group of people overstepping in asking for ever-increasing favours, and about somebody else who doesn't put their foot down and tell them so (allowing themselves to be taken advantage of). Gaslighting [as I understand it] is a LOT nastier than that. It's messing about with somebody else' sense of self-worth.

I think what the author was trying to point out is by his example is how gaslighting can begin as something as simple as that. Generally speaking, manipulator/ gaslighter isn't going to jump right to the hard stuff. They will start off by telling you that you agreed to something you don't remember and do so repeatedly over time until you begin to doubt your own memory. As the man in the example did. So at first you believe it was a simple misunderstanding and don't think it was intentional and by the time that you're thinking your going crazy it is too late.
 
to the lovely and talented Sourgirl,

...matter of opinion. :cool:

Because I was pressed for time I didn't read the attachment and had no comment on the subject matter. My ears, eyes, and whatever, perked up because YOU started a thread....very rare.
I know,..2 in one week ! Whoddathunkit ? Well, I`m rarely in the mood for tangents, babysitting, and politics. This week, I`m inside a lot, and slightly bored to death.

I must admit when I saw the topic and your name attached I did think of actual gaslights ....my favorite hotel in the French quarter uses them for nightscaping....it has a very warm romantic feel....I'd love to see your eyes in that kind of light.

You stole that line from a Old Spice commercial, I just know it. :p

Its perhaps an obsession not a fetish. And for the record you're the one that hears the lyrics.
True. Obsession is more factual. My pervert brain thought 'fetish' while being flippant.
I write the lyrics, you enjoy them, the fetish/obsession is all yours Mister !

As for your plumbing problem (related to housing) civilization has its perks. ...pumps, tanks, pressure switches are unnecessary local gov do all that for you. This why you should hire a general contractor ....let him fight with the different trades or equipment manufacturer ...

HaHa..I`d rather bitch about my stuff, then hand over control to 'The City Man'. Now,..where did I put my shotgun,.....

PS how is the roan ? and seriously whats the photo of ?
She is just fine. :p Photo is a rorschach, I forgot to tell you. ;)

And back on topic :

As for the topic of gaslighting and the article ...the driver( douchebag 1 )was completely at fault ....should have asked on the first call what all the surrounding facts were and who and what type of taxi services he's willing to offer. I would have waved and honked as I drove by on day three....deal with the fallout later.

Agreed. Most times, we have only ourselves to blame. There is a grey area though. If we want to have a society with any 'heart' at all, learning when to be giving, and when to look after yourself seems to be a life-lesson, that somewhere along the lines, has been left in the dust.
If you naturally have that skill-set, rock on. If you don`t, you might end up becoming a burden on society after you`ve been driven nutty, or end up being bitter about love and people, and shutting the world out.
I love a good hermit-session as much as the next guy, but I'm slightly thrown off by the people who go postal and hurt others, because they were wronged in their past.
 
The movie is from the late 30's or early 40's I believe ? Psychological

The movie "Gaslight" came out in 1944 and starred Angela Lansbury as the wife. I have yet to see the movie, but am familiar with the term from a course I took on conflict and violence in families a few years back. We watched actual videos of people who experienced gas lighting; one woman's husband even had the neighbors unknowing co-operation in the process and their kids willing co-operation; including filming the escalation of abuse. It wasn't until he lost his job and she had to go back to work that she found someone who helped her realize that she wasn't crazy. It was very sad, but insightful.
 
The original English version came out in 1940. It is arguably better.

Men deciding sane women are insane, and then doing all they can to drive them insane is the theme of this very interesting and creepy gothic horror short story from 1898, The Yellow Wallpaper, written to discredit the popular "rest cure" of the day, which was not at all restful.

http://www.scaryforkids.com/yellow-wallpaper/

Oh, and good flirting, dinged and Girl. *get a room*
 
The original English version came out in 1940. It is arguably better.

Men deciding sane women are insane, and then doing all they can to drive them insane is the theme of this very interesting and creepy gothic horror short story from 1898, The Yellow Wallpaper, written to discredit the popular "rest cure" of the day, which was not at all restful.

http://www.scaryforkids.com/yellow-wallpaper/

Oh, and good flirting, dinged and Girl. *get a room*

I would, but he is SUCH the exhibitionist. :rolleyes:

All this movie talk, has me curious to see the movies now.
Thanks Brigid and Mags.
 
Reply to BrigidsDaughter and SourGirl
Originally Posted by SourGirl
The movie is from the late 30's or early 40's I believe ? Psychological
The movie "Gaslight" came out in 1944 and starred Angela Lansbury as the wife. I have yet to see the movie, but am familiar with the term from a course I took on conflict and violence in families a few years back. We watched actual videos of people who experienced gas lighting; one woman's husband even had the neighbors unknowing co-operation in the process and their kids willing co-operation; including filming the escalation of abuse. It wasn't until he lost his job and she had to go back to work that she found someone who helped her realize that she wasn't crazy. It was very sad, but insightful.
There have been various versions of this film. Perhaps the most famous one has Charles Boyer as the [gaslighting] husband and Ingrid Bergman as the wife being driven towards madness [towards believing herself to be mad]. Angela Lansbury didn't play the wife, she played the maid with whom the husband flirted and used as a witness to the wife's "madness". In the society in which this all took place, it must have been considered even more degrading to have the servants smirk about your behaviour.
A quick sweep of my favourite search engine, tells me :

' A little known, form of abuse. Gaslighting, is an emotional abuse technique in which one individual creates self-doubt in another. '

The most complete, and basic explanation (paraphrased)I found was ;
' Letting someone else twist and define your own reality.'
We all have known cases of 2 people saying:
"I told you that ---"
"No you didn't. You never told me that."
"Oh yes I did: you've just forgotten."
I suspect that each of of us has been,at some time or another, on both sides of this conversation. People really do forget some things that they're told... and people really do believe that they made some point perfectly clear when they actually did nothing of the kind.

I agree with SourGirl that this is the kind of thing that we polies have to particularly careful about.* Someone on this board has a wonderful quote from G.B. Shaw as part of their signature. [I paraphrase from memory:] "The trouble with communicating is people's assuming that it has taken place."

I don't consider such examples of poor memory to be abuse. And I stand by by conviction that the term "gaslighting" should only be used about the willful and calculated technique to undermine another person's confidence in / belief in themselves. [The fact that it's a technique of abuse doesn't necessarily mean that the abuser is consciously aware of using this technique... or of abusing - healthy, well-adjusted people DON'T abuse.]

I wrote on another thread about a dear mono friend of mine whose husband was cheating on her. When she asked him about it, he denied it (of course). I wouldn't consider that gaslighting. That's just being a lying, cheating scoundrel. It was his telling her that she was imagining it all, that she was paranoid, was going crazy [attempting to turn it into HER problem, not his, and inviting her to question her own sanity] that was the gaslighting [as I understand the term, and using the definitions that SourGirl quotes above - creating self-doubt, twisting reality (but with INTENT to do so)].

* One of the [many] advantages of polyamory is that it's more difficult to gaslight a partner if they've got somebody else who loves them, is intimate with them, and can reassure them that they AREN'T going crazy. [Although there wasn't any (physical) polyamory going on, this was the role of the Joseph Cotten character in the version mentioned above.] It must be really awful to have your "one and only love" telling you that [aside from just joking] that you're a few ants short of a picnic.
 
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I think it's a pretty good article about gaslighting, but the example at the beginning is not a good example of gaslightling.
 
I think I my have just witnessed the concession creep. One of the young guys that works here just asked to use some equipment over the weekend...no problem. I ask him whats the project....new girlfriends place he's been asked or something ... he didn't want to talk about in front everyone...so who knows how this all got started, I'll find out eventually. I do know somebody's getting a new kitchen installed ...loves blind sometimes. We've started a pool to see who he calls for help first.

Oh yeah ..I'm not an exhibitionist I just love the out doors and nature.
 
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Geez dinged, we are trying to critique an article here, not actually look at the topic !

..wait, nm , I`ve been away to long.

Hmm,.. be interesting to see if he gets 'gassed.' :p Though I wonder if he offered in an attempt to 'wow' her ?

Ok, I really need to get back to these xmas decorations. I`m a week behind !
 
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