in over my head

Thanks for the articles Kevin. The Ted talk is a classic and the Labriola article is insightful. Very useful. Now if I could just integrate that info and let it work some magic. She keeps saying that it's not fair that she feels that way, that it's the pot calling the kettle black. Meanwhile, I still want to be friends with R. I don't know if it will ever go anywhere but I have to be free to make friends. I've known R now for more than two months and we haven't even held hands. Sure, she tilted her head that one day as if she expected me to kiss her and under her breath another day breathed out a compliment that made it clear that she finds me attractive. I like that. I'm even flattered. Still, I don't find her as attractive as A and I'm not planning to jump into anything simply because she's inviting. However, I was grocery shopping with my kids today and when we got to the cheese section I said, "Let's get extra cheese so we can invite R over for pizza." We did and then as we were leaving the supermarket, guess who pulled in? R. So I invited her over for pizza. It was pure synchronicity. So now, when I have the most innocent friendly get together, I can't tell A about it lest she be consumed over nothing again. She told me that she should give me space to pursue my other interests but I don't even really have other interests. R is a friend. Is it as hard for you guys to believe that as it is for A?
 
Please don't hide from A that you are seeing R as a friend. You think you are protecting her, but you are thinking for her. You've done nothing wrong. You have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. Tell the woman you love you had a friend over for pizza. Nothing more nothng less. If you want a serious relationship with A, I strongly encourage you to be honest with her.

A.'s jealousy is for her to deal with. The best thing you can do to help her deal with it, is not hide stuff from her. She will find out at some point, and then she will no longer trust you - and rightly so.

I've been reading your blog and rooting for you.
 
Of course Cleo. Honesty first. Thank you. I maybe should have said, "can't easily tell her." That is the real crux of the situation because I'm not hiding anything from her but I would also like to be able to tell her all the details. It's exciting for me to make a friend and I want to share that excitement with the woman I love. I feel slighted because she also still flirts and meets people and confides in me about her experiences. She realizes that her feelings describe a double standard. I'm pretty sure it's taking her by surprise and she doesn't know what to do for feeling that way. Meanwhile, I don't want to add any pressure to the considerable amount that she already goes through. I'm frequently hesitant to "bother" her because I figure that she requires space to maintain her relationships with hubby and children. I don't pry into their relationships. I don't know when they have sex and she does not have to tell me if she's talking to an old boyfriend or meeting someone new. She usually does. I trust her and what I trust is that no matter what she does, she will come back to me because she has genuine deep feelings for me. She appears to not quite trust me like that yet and that's okay with me for now because she does trust me in other ways. What bothers me is that she doesn't recognize that R is not in any way a threat to how I feel about her. Maybe some other woman would be. But not R. Even if I slept with R, I love A. Today is our 3 month anniversary. We're at 17,500 messages in three months too. We're still going strong and this jealousy thing is only a minor bump well worth digging into because I seek a level of understanding that will empower A and I to persevere. Thanks for all the positive energy!
 
Hi pcflvly,

Was wondering if A has had a look at those links, and if so what was her response to them. Hopefully she found them useful as well?

I don't think of jealousy as a feeling one can just dissolve overnight. The best one can do is seek out good coping mechanisms for dealing with the uncomfortable feelings. One coping mechanism is deciding in one's mind whether there's due external cause for feeling jealous (cause sometimes there is). It sounds like A hasn't thought of any external cause as yet but it's still a good idea to analyze the external circumstances carefully. So as to thoroughly rule them out at least.

If they are ruled out, then one knows the objective will be to "push through the feelings" through such mechanisms as diversions, readings, reasonings, venting, journalings, even just plain old endurance (with a dash of fake it til you make it if that helps). Even then it probably won't be an overnight process. Jealousy can be a long dark forest to get through.

Re:
"So now, when I have the most innocent friendly get together, I can't tell A about it lest she be consumed over nothing again."

I wonder if the best thing wouldn't be to repeat the above statement to A -- sometime when she's relatively ready to hear it (no immediate upsets and that).

  • She needs to be aware of the real problems the jealousy causes;
  • She needs to know you'll always tell her the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;
  • She needs practice at hearing R mentioned. Practice at processing her own emotional response.
Of course when I say the whole truth I don't mean every little detail, if for no other reason simply because people generally don't (and don't need to) comb through every detail of their day when talking to each other. But you should at least (at some point) be able to tell A, "Hey, we had R over for pizza," and even be able to share a little of whatever you and R talked about, etc.

You may have to share stuff with A in smaller bites at a time in the beginning. A isn't necessarily emotionally ready to hear every last detail. Give her some time to get used to hearing (all of) the basics first.

Re:
"It's exciting for me to make a friend and I want to share that excitement with the woman I love."

Have a caution here: NRE (and yes you're probably already experiencing that with R) can water down the accuracy of one's judgments, and the thoroughness of one's perspectives. Before getting caught up in your desire to share the excitment with A, remind yourself that A doesn't feel so thrilled about it. What is A getting out of it, is a question to ask yourself. If she's just getting a lot of fear, insecurity, and feelings of rejection from it, then you should exercise empathy and compassion and not hurt her with too many details.

Re:
"I feel slighted because she also still flirts and meets people and confides in me about her experiences."

Ah, but don't even go there. A's jealousy isn't necessarily a rational experience, nor is it necessarily an experience she chooses to have. Jealous feelings aren't fun or comfortable feelings for the jealous person to have. You have to be patient with A while she tries to sort out the root causes of the jealousy. At the moment, most of these root causes are probably buried in her subconscious, so she can't give you an instant explanation. The problem will take quite awhile to unravel.

There do seem to be trust issues on A's part. Something she might want to look into. Journaling could be her friend here.

Can A develop a friendship of her own with R? It might help.

Re:
"What bothers me is that she doesn't recognize that R is not in any way a threat to how I feel about her."

Maybe so but the question is, what is it about R that feels threatening to her? A lot of reflection and analysis is called for here.

I gather that R is quite a nice friend. Not someone you would just kick to the curb. If A can reason that through in her mind, the reasoning can be part of the emotional processing and will help her realize it's something to just push through.

Hence why I wanted to make sure she'd checked out the links. I'd even suggest bookmarking them for re-reading from time to time. Sometimes you need a "collection of mantras" you can repeat to yourself as part of the emotional processing. Something that does make sense to your mind. Again not an overnight process, but something that will gradually yield results.

Re (from the 9th):
"She said that her husband would do R in a minute so I asked her if she would be jealous if he did. She said no. So why do I get the jealousy treatment?"

That would be one of those mantras (and something for her to maybe journal about). A should really do some digging to find out what's at the root of the negative reactions she's having. Is she thinking you're going to dump her and pick R instead? Maybe the fact that A is "taken," whereas R is "available," feels threatening to A. Sure A isn't jealous of her husband but then, she has special (spousal -- i.e., societal pressure) "claim" over her husband. Not something one "should" take comfort in, but let's face it, society programs us a lot to take comfort in it.

And does A have stuff in her past that R somehow stirs up? something else for her to think (and journal) about.

Hopefully you and A both will be able to see a marked improvement in how well A copes with the jealousy in about a year as you look back. But if she's still spinning her wheels by then, then some kind of poly-friendly counseling might be in order.

Re (from today):
"We're still going strong and this jealousy thing is only a minor bump well worth digging into because I seek a level of understanding that will empower A and I to persevere."

That's the spirit.

Think of jealousy as, not a curse and a bane to the relationship, but as an opportunity to dig into that subconscious and recognize issues that A wasn't previously aware of. Only when we see the "emotional toxins" for what they are, can we begin to flush them out.

If I think of more ideas I'll let you know.
 
We talked about it quite a bit last night. What rang the most true was the idea that R was a convenient scapegoat for all the other pressures in her life. There were multiple external causes. Pretty sure that was it because she got an aha look and immediately after that asked me about R. I told her everything... I told her that I'd talked to my stylist, Ashlee, when I got my haircut Wednesday. Ashlee asked me, "Is R prettier than A?" I said no. Ashlee then said, "A doesn't have anything to worry about then." A was somewhat comforted by the anecdote and chill about R. We spent about five or more hours holding each other. A couple hours cuddling and talking. More hours even closer. I can't get enough of touching her. If we're together we are at least holding hands and it always feels like the first time. A spark. We talked about that too. How it feels to touch each other. Our bodies each warmed and excited, talking to each other skin to skin. A deeper wordless communication. Our bodies seem to have a lot to say and it quiets the mind while they talk. Quiets the mind. She had to go but left me in bliss. Thirteen hours later and still in bliss.
 
That sounds most excellent. :) Continue with the communication (of all sorts).
 
She stayed over last night and somewhere in the midst of several hours of lovemaking I whispered in her ear, "Have you ever made love before?" She replied, "Only with you. Only with you." But that was the last over night for now. J is struggling with his feelings about the whole thing and asked her to chill for now. No prohibition on our usual dating, just the overnights.
 
Sorry to hear that, I know the overnights are important and very meaningful. Hopefully this is just a temporary thing.
 
The overnights are nice. I like getting up with her and starting the day, making her breakfast and coffee. I just like that. It's hard for him though to wake up at home alone. It's not hard for me. Mind you, the waking up in the morning part is the only thing that changed. We still go out, come home, and fall asleep in each others arms. The only difference is that she gets up at 2am and goes home. I am every day in disbelief that her and I are still together, still growing stronger, and that it is working out in all our relationships. He dropped her off here the other day. They carpool occasionally and it made more sense that she just get a ride. He knew what neighborhood I live in but he didn't know it was the old polyamory house. That was a bit of a shock for him. Remember, they both had experiences here. He regularly slept with a married woman in my house. (long before I moved here) I knew this but the irony of it all is just hitting me now. It sounded like the irony hit him too when he saw where he was taking his wife.
 
Well, poly is nothing if not ironic. :) It sounds like you guys are making small steps of progress despite the obstacles. I think that's a hopeful sign.
 
She's not just a lover. She's my friend and confidant. She's the fresh flower who brought my inner lover back to life. She's the gift that makes me a present. I don't want to possess her even while we fill each other. I don't want to take her away although we stay so close that we're virtually one. I want her to love and live fulfilled and rewarded. I relish every minute of her that she finds the time to share with me.
 
Ah, if only more people could love in such a sweet way. Carry on, my friend.
 
This really is fucking polyamory. Can someone pinch me please? Is there a real world where I can love my girl then go have a beautiful supper with her and her husband? I never dreamed when I started this blog that this relationship would bloom like it has. That all obstacles in our path would melt away. That I, in love with her, could accept him and that he could accept me. Much less that she could juggle the whole thing and make it work.
 
I don't feel so in over my head anymore. Spending New Years Eve with both A and J was very positive and she often states that J suggested the times that she had for me. She says, "I could come over from 6-9 tomorrow. You can thank J for that." J is super gracious. He accepts me. Her kids are cool with me too. Everything has gone just swimmingly. I'm happy. A is happy. And I don't pry too much into him and her but I assume he is at least happy for her.

However, lately I have been thinking about how she divides her affections, and here I hope that one of my readers is a pivot herself and could lend some insight. A and I have had some profoundly passionate sessions together and ever since the first time, I have told her that it would always get better. It has. Even beyond what I could have imagined. Heart to heart astral plane sex and if you've ever had that then you think that it's the ultimate. It's not. There's also heart to heart astral plane sex level two. And three. And four. It just keeps getting nicer and deeper and then I start to think if we're hitting those heights, how does that affect her relationship with J? It's not my intent to have all of her affection and I feel like she's giving me at least 80% and as I mentioned above, J has been so gracious that it makes me feel like he's getting the short end of the stick here. I feel compersion towards him. I want him to be happy too. That leads me to a couple questions. First, is it any of my business how she divides her time and affections? And next, is there anything I can do to equalize this?

Kevin, what does your girlfriend say. She's a pivot right?
 
Ah. Yes. Well, let me forward your query to her; she hasn't a Polyamory.com account but I figure she'll be willing to respond (and then I can post it here).

From my perspective (from what I understand from her, and from what I've read on various poly forums over the years), there's NRE and there's RRE. You and A are enjoying the depths/heights of NRE, but that can spill over (as RRE) into her marriage with J. So he's not getting the short end of the stick, as long as she's conscientious and remembers and appreciates him.

I don't suppose it would hurt to ask A how she divides her attention, and to just tell her that you hope J is also getting a fair deal. Find out how she feels about those things.

All signs seem to be positive for the moment however.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I don't feel so in over my head anymore. Spending New Years Eve with both A and J was very positive and she often states that J suggested the times that she had for me. She says, "I could come over from 6-9 tomorrow. You can thank J for that." J is super gracious. He accepts me. Her kids are cool with me too. Everything has gone just swimmingly. I'm happy. A is happy. And I don't pry too much into him and her but I assume he is at least happy for her...

... is it any of my business how she divides her time and affections? And next, is there anything I can do to equalize this?


I'm a hinge in a relationship. So is my bf. I think you're in a good place, from the sounds of it. Maybe you're feeling it's too good to be true.


I'd say, if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. If her husband has issues with her dividing her time, and enjoying cosmic NRE sex, assume he'll tell her and she'll deal with it. Assume she'll tell you if things need to be tweaked and there are any changes that need to be made on your end.
 
Yes, I do often feel that it's too good to be true. A and I chatted about this some last night and she understood where I was coming from. She feels somewhat guilty for making things so complicated for J but understands the benefit of guilty pleasures for herself. She feels like she deserves it. She was also able to communicate some of my concern for J's happiness to him.

Ha. I should change the title of this blog to "Too good to be true". It does seem to be the theme.

I would like still more perspectives from other hinge people on how they divide their time and affections.
 
Hi pcflvly,
Here's what Lady Hinge has to say -- Looks like her new handle will be Snowbunny. :)

"Here is my response. Sorry my writing skillz are not anything close to Kevin's. I am much better at writing technical work instructions than in providing social advice.

Re:
'First, is it any of my business how she divides her time and affections?'

Yes, I think it is. Especially if NRE is running rampant you don't want to sabotage her other relationship. And I would be afraid of causing any type of jealousy issues with her other love. No matter what he says. It's still good for them to have their time together! If you are a part of the family, then I think it's in your best interest to encourage her to spend a fair amount of time with her other *and* the one thing that is really hard, spend time for herself.

Another idea may be to spend time together as a threesome if possible. It's going to be hard at first finding the right balance and boundries. I have found it's easier keeping PDA to a minimum in public. It helps us with jealousy issues and my hubby's fear of causing any scenes where people might say something (he has some self esteem issues to start with).

If we are at home, there might be a little PDA or hand holding but not anything too over the top. To me, it's a respect thing. I know hubby had a hard time getting onboard with poly so I don't want to be too in his face about it.

We are much more relaxed now with who gets how much time. It comes down to work schedules and availability. Kevin is available much more often than hubby is, so hubby and I try to spend time together when we can and Kevin and I sort of fill in the blanks. In the beginning though, it was hard; we had an Excel spreadsheet of how many hours I was spending with each person every week. Thank goodness we didn't have to do that for very long.

Re:
'Anything I can do to equalize this?'

Just be aware and respectful of the other guy. Put yourself in his shoes. Make suggestions. Have a heart-to-heart with him if you are comfortable doing so.

It sounds like you are worried about exhausting her sexually. My hubby is a sexual cactus. He can go months without sex and it doesn't bother him. This went on for many years before we were even poly. From all of our discussions and being married almost 20 years, from what I can tell, he just has a very very low sexual appetite. So it may or may not even be a big deal to the other guy.

Good luck with your V. May you have many happy years together. Communicate! It makes a world of difference.
Snowbunny"

Hope that helps.
Kevin
 
Thanks Snowbunny! Well, I know a lot more now than I did earlier and it doesn't make it any easier. Turns out that I get 90% - 100% of the affection. I feel very loved right now too. He did get some RRE but only in the first month or so. She said, "If he could touch me the way you touch me..." He tries too, but she says she just can't get in the mood for him. I didn't know it was like that. She feels guilty about it but I no longer do as that dynamic predates my involvement with her. I emphasized the fact that loving her means I also care deeply about the people she cares about.

Meanwhile, he continues to enable us. Four hours with her this afternoon, his idea. Skipping some details for the sake of privacy here but he invited himself along for a visit and they are both coming over later. I totally agree that the three of us should spend time together. The idea is awkward but in fact, it's just being honest with each other. There's nothing hidden and it's not the first time we've all gotten together (5th or 6th time) but it will be the first time I welcome him into my house.

Thanks again for all the insights! And Kevin, it's all positive. Too good to be true.
 
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