Turnabout

Carma, I sent you a PM. :)

I agree with Mags and NYCINDIE.

this is NRE. It is not love. Not that it couldn't be eventually, but do not mix up hormones and drama and excitement for love.
 
Carma, I feel for you. You so want to believe in the good in people, yet it's so much harder for you to believe in yourself.

You need to find your strength, and stick to it. Don't let Sundance's skillful deceit and Barbie's googly-eyed NRE convince you that they have a purer love, nor that you are any less than someone who has stayed by him and loved him unconditionally all these years. You seem to always second-guess yourself and let others turn you around. This is a time when you need to stand up for what is good for you.
 
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Hon,

Diddlysquat has changed. I want you to consider something.

Barbie is totally irrelevant. She doesn't matter. Why? Because if she wasn't in the picture, there would be some other poor sod of a woman. She's the excuse for the behavior, not the cause. She is not who you need to be talking with. You need to talk with Sundance. And I'm not seeing that happening. Rather, he seems to be putting everything on you - you change and I'll be fine. You do this - give up Butch and I'll be happy. Go back to Butch and I'll be happy. Psych! No I won't be happy.

Don't waste your time and mental energy on Barbie - and not because she's evil or undeserving. She seems like a woman in love with poor boundaries. Please forgive me for poking at old wounds, but who does that remind you of? Talking/texting her gets you nothing. Just distractions from the central problem which is Sundance's apparent inability to grow, to indicate what he really wants and needs and communiate that. You spin off into fantasyland about the two of you being friends. Or Sundance getting whatever it is he wants. He's already got everything he wants and he's stilll fucking miserable.

You can't do a goddamn thing to make him happier. Give him Barbie on a platter. Never see Butch again. Make yourself his slavish loving wife. He will still be a miserable person because he does not seem to 1) have a sense of self or 2) his self is so strong that no one else really exists - i.e. a sociopath. You can do nothing to help. You can only save yourself and protect the kids (not from him, I've heard nothing to indicate he treats them poorly but protect them from this messed up situation while it gets sorted out).

Why spend so much energy on her? Telling her the 'truth' won't do her any good - she won't believe you and she certainly isn't in control of the relationship anyway. And telling her won't do you any good except maybe to get it off your chest to someone. (Telling the intertubes is not the same as telling a real, live person.)

And why again can't he move out? Financial? I know you won't deny him access to the children - he appears to be a good father. I just don't see this 'roommates' thing going well for you, or for him. If he is out of the house, I see you starting to get a mental and emotional handle on things.

And, hugs.
 
And why again can't he move out? Financial? I know you won't deny him access to the children - he appears to be a good father. I just don't see this 'roommates' thing going well for you, or for him. If he is out of the house, I see you starting to get a mental and emotional handle on things.

I second this opinion so strongly. It would be good for you and good for the kids if you would actually separate. Children can tell there's something going on. I don't see forcing a roommate situation when both of you are really emotional and in a total mess being beneficial to them.
 
I think your definition of "roommates" is quite a bit different than mine. I was thinking that it would be more curiosity type contact ....Jr. has a game on Friday night are you planning to make that. That kind of stuff, family info, kid related schedules. Here's your mail. Not what nights he's coming home or good night sleep well calls.

I'm sorry but I find it really funny you can track him by his blow dryer and hair products. I don't think I've used one since high school or college.


It sounded like you had enough and it over as you both had known it. Now you can clearly and cleanly have Butch (Sun no longer cares ) live as roommates and each gets their romantic and sexual needs met with outside partners. Isn't that how he see's it. And the trouble is in breaking old habits like checking in or good night phone calls....or his being a liar. So if that was working on a basic level, you need to tell him the boundaries of this new dynamic. Please don't call to check it, please don't set up expectations of some act or action then not follow through.

Is there any possibility that this started out (for Sun) as pay back. He wanted you to feel the pain that he felt? And with his extensive dating history he really didn't plan on falling for Barbie it just creeped up on him. Have some laughs, some hot sex, heal a few wounds, share some hair care products or lotions and call it a day. Falling in Love was never part of the plan, maybe?

I think the counselor might be able to help you both figure out what is that you both ..REALLY want and what steps you need to take to get there.
 
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I think your definition of "roommates" is quite a bit different than mine. I was thinking that it would be more curiosity type contact ....Jr. has a game on Friday night are you planning to make that. That kind of stuff, family info, kid related schedules. Here's your mail. Not what nights he's coming home or good night sleep well calls.

Yeah, it's not working out too well yet, this roommate idea.


It sounded like you had enough and it over as you both had known it. Now you can clearly and cleanly have Butch (Sun no longer cares )

But what about what Butch thinks? Being with Carma right now is probably just a wee bit stressful...

live as roommates...

Seems like Carma works 3 overnights a week, caring for her grandparents. Sun has a 4 hour daily commute, plus his 8 hour workday. Hard to say how fully separating will work what with 4 young kids at home.
 
Mags,
Sorry, but Butch has been silent on the sideline for so long he's lost his voice now. :p. It very unfair but life's unfair. And really isn't this a time when carma could really use the support, seem kind of fair weather or now that Sun doesn't care he's lost interest? Either way that"s not going to fly....he"s still in like it or not.:D
 
You guys are all so freaking awesome. I have so much to think about. So much to chew on. WOW, I have never felt so much support and love as I am getting from all of you. You can all see so much more clearly than I can, it's AMAZING sometimes (and kinda freaks me out!) I'll be back on later.
 
Carma - everyone can see clearly because we are not mired in emotion and history and children and family and finances.

You are.

But if you go back and read YOUR story - but read it as if it were someone else - what would you tell them? How would you advise them?

Once you've clearly laid out the advice you'd give another - then TAKE IT. Take the advice, and move forward.

You deserve so much better than what you've laid out here.
 
I keep trying to avoid a real separation, even though I think in so many ways it would be A LOT better, much healthier for me. Believe it or not, no, my kids really don't know the "D" word is coming, and the thought of it for the boys devastates me. But if I stay like this they are going to have a crazy dad AND a crazy mom!

FROM Magdlyn:
Quote:
I can tell she will do or say ANYTHING to help Sundance, including begging me to love him!
How pointless and rude. You've tried to love that handsome gym-pumped, hair-gelled lying shallow bastard and what does it get you?

Hahaha Mags! :D
You are so right -- I HAVE tried to love him! I have tried like hell. And it's BEEN hell. Who could ever fawn over someone like that enough, ever???

FROM opalescent:
You can't do a goddamn thing to make him happier. Give him Barbie on a platter. Never see Butch again. Make yourself his slavish loving wife. He will still be a miserable person because he does not seem to 1) have a sense of self or 2) his self is so strong that no one else really exists - i.e. a sociopath. You can do nothing to help.

You said it, sister. But my EGO (or my wanting to see the best in people, like nyc said) keeps telling me I CAN love him enough. And of course, HE gets me to believe everything is my fault, because I wouldn't love him. Well, of course he does. I swear, when I write it down here and I read it back, all in black and white, it's so OBVIOUS (yes, marksbabygirl). But living with him is twisting me up really bad. :(

He keeps saying he hasn't given up hope. Last night he said "There's still a flame here, you know." And I said, "Of course there is, but let's not get burned by it again!"

He is a master at sucking me in. I guess when I want to believe it's possible, I suck him back in, too, without being manipulative or intentionally misleading. I am struggling to keep the TRUTH in the forefront, you know? I have lived a lie for too long -- and you know, even a couple months is too long!!!

Our finances are a fucking nightmare. Credit - in the gutter. I doubt we could sell our house for what it's worth. My job watching my grandparents -- they give me a stipend for gas, etc., but nothing to show on a rental application or anything. So I have to do some freaky shit, guys, and I'm scared! Overhaul my entire life! So yeah, I keep caving in to Sundance, and putting up with his BS, because I don't have a whole lot of options, AND, I think if it really comes down to asking him to leave, he could get REALLY crazy.

I need to do things step by step, but the first step is making the decision, which you are all helping with, immensely. Unfortunately, most of the people in my life are charmed enough with Sundance, AND, they know the turmoil the kids and I are going to be headed into. Most people just hate to see a marriage and a family break up, and i hate to be the one to cause everyone so much sadness. Isn't that goofy?! I know. I felt the same thing when I divorced my first husband. I didn't want people to be sad for me! Even though if they knew the true hell I'd been living, they would have encouraged me to leave years ago. I was good at playing along, and I'm doing it again -- playing "Happy Family." Believe me, it's Sundance's favorite show, too, which I'm sure is no surprise to any of you! Image man. Yes, Dinged, the blowdryer and hair products DO tell all. :mad:

I am trying so hard to detach from him, from his behavior and his lies. Shouldn't I be able to do that??? I know I should. But it's such a quick turnaround, I guess my head is still swimming. This NRE has turned him into a lunatic. But just because it will likely wear off, eventually, doesn't mean he won't just move on to another girl to feed his ego. I think something has snapped in him, and he is totally addicted to the high. (I've mentioned before that Sundance was EXTREMELY promiscuous before he met me. I think that was just in remission, or something).

Oh -- about my conversation with Barbie, you're right , I did get kinda romantic about the things she said, it's true. And that was dumb of me. HOWEVER, it's a good thing -- because if I blow Sundance's cover, DUH, he'll be slinking back to me, and he'll be resentful! I'm not sure I want to be responsible for "torpedoing" his love affair AS HE ALREADY ACCUSED ME OF, after I had the text conversation with her..... (He claimed she was upset about it, and that she told him she is walking away, to give our marriage a chance. Like hell she is!!! I never said ANYTHING to make her feel that way. I know that is total BS). No, no, no -- at this point, I don't want to blow his cover with her -- if she loves his image, and he can keep her believing it, goody for him. They could honestly be a match made in heaven!

I've gotta do this one day at a time. But thanks to ALL of you and your perspective, and your kindness and your time, I can stand my ground for another day and not give in to his sweet lies. I was hoping I could manage to put up with it long enough to go back to school -- he said he'd put me through, so I can get my Masters, get a job at the college, and the kids could get free tuition. That is the only college plan we've got, with our crappy finances.

I think I'm too "nice" to pull this off. "Nice" = easily manipulated, doesn't it? My daughter told me to read, "Why Men Love Bitches." She said it will change my outlook, haha!
 
I'm on my phone so this will be short. In addition to the Tara Brach book and podcasts (which I'm telling you now will be eye openin and may help you find some peace amidst the chaos) I also recommend a book by Michele wiener-Davis called "how to change your life and everyone in it". Its not as manipulative as it sounds. ;-).

Basically it's about creative problem solving based on solution focused brief therapy. Seriously-- get it!!

Much love doll ....
 
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I have always stuffed anger and now I am expressing it more with Sundance. It is so hard living together but "separated." :confused: I am not doing it very gracefully right now.

We are seeing a counselor a week from today. Hopefully that will help -- at least I won't be doing it alone! None of you has been able to see Sundance in action -- ha. It's no wonder he's too scared to come here. I can't imagine what that counselor is going to make of all this! Maybe Sundance thinks he'll be able to use his charm -- good luck, because this time we're seeing a male therapist. ;) Hard to charm with just words on a screen, he is well aware of that. He relies on his looks for practically everything -- even though I've said before, he's really good with words. But this is too much like.... WORK, right??? And it's ongoing. The counseling session lasts, what, an hour???? He probably figures he can shmooze his way through that. With a male therapist all he has to do is cry a little, talk about his father issues, show he is soft inside, etc.

Actually, I'm so mad, the therapist MIGHT see my as a psycho!

But what I'm most mad about is the lies, and if I can point out a few of them to the third party, and he catches him in a few, he will see what I'm dealing with.

Okay, enough writing scripts. :eek: I'm just struggling. :(
 
Hugs to you, Carma. I honestly don't know what to advise in your situation--it's all way over my head.

Sundance exhibits really bizarre lying behaviour. Saying he wasn't going to stay over night, but then packing his stuff to stay over night? It's just... weird. What do you do with that?
 
STOP! STOP anticipating how things MIGHT go in therapy and make a list of items you want to address (give a copy to the therapist). I can guarantee you that you will NOT get to even half the stuff on your list, if you even get past the first thing. Most therapists aren't unfamiliar with dealing with "charming" personalities and know how to get to the real issues. So have some faith and go in with a positive mindset and your list to keep YOU from being distracted.
 
I'd like to second what SN said and add stop worrying about how everyone is going to be perceived. Sun as the liar or charmer you as a psycho. None of that will be constructive unless the purpose is to just look backwards assess blame.

Why can't you find grace for a week? I'm sure you can do that, I'm sure you've done much harder things. Your goal is civility and stability in the house...mission statement. Stay focused and don't let yourself be suckered off point. Good luck ...this tape will self destruct in 30 seconds. Cue match and music....
 
I agree you definitely need to make a list and give it to the therapist ahead of time. Put LYING/TRUST as the #1 issue. As much as other issues are a problem, it all comes back to trust.

I guarantee your therapist is used to having people try to play their games with them, and is going to not take everything either one of you says as absolute truth. It will take time, though for the therapist to get a feel for each of your personalities and listen to you talk enough to start to grasp some of the underlying issues. Not to mention that each person's "truth" is coming from their own perspectives and through their own viewpoints, with all of the crap that comes with that, and that's part of their job, to help figure out what is going on with all of that.

Many people think that if they are "playing" the therapist and they don't call them on it straight up (or on the first visit), that they're somehow fooling them. But any good therapist is #1 going to take time to get to know everyone, and #2 not call someone a liar, even if they think they're not getting the truth. They will, however, ask questions and get people thinking for themselves.

Hopefully a third party will be able to at least get the communication moving about these subjects without all of the recriminations, accusations and the gaslighting. He's definitely trying to make you second guess yourself to take the heat off himself-- and it's mostly likely worked well all of these years so he's probably confused as to why it's not working anymore.
 
Sundance stayed the night with Barbie last night, I stayed home with the kids and it was a GREAT night! I felt more peace than I've felt in a long time. He called at 8:00 to check that everything was ok at home, I said we're all doing fine. He tried his usual tact, "Well, I'm not sure I'm fine, I miss being home...." but I cheerfully cut him off and said, "It's only one night, don't worry, you'll be here tomorrow." We said goodbye and I focused on the kids all night and never once swirled like I did LAST Wednesday. :) (Last Wednesday he had all kinds of schemes running, as you recall, saying he's not staying, when all the while he had his stuff packed; and saying he was staying at a hotel, and saying she was only going to be with him til 10:00....) My head was swirling with his lies, and this week there weren't any! Except the "I miss you....." one, but he may miss what he wished were possible, anyway. The same way I do sometimes. But I don't miss the reality of what our marriage had become. (And I'm sure he wasn't missing home too much when Barbie put it all down, DUH! :p)

I have seen Butch a few times, but we've kept it platonic and friendly, and that has been terrific too. His heart is still very weak, and he's been feeling strange. So aside from the fact that he doesn't really want to get tangled up in my marital drama again, we are both respecting the limitations of his heart, i.e. sex could KILL him! He is such an incredible man. You wouldn't even believe the shit he's gone through, and he still holds his head up. I would be curled up in a ball if I were him.

I'm so glad I had so much support through this process. I wish we could all meet in person so I could give you each a big hug. Please accept a cyber squeeze as the best I can do. :D
 
I really like how you focused on you while he was at Barbie's and didn't let him draw you into his stuff when he called. Sounds like it's working for you to figure out what you want and need and let him be doing his own figuring. Just keep that attitude when you're at the counselor's and you should reap a lot more benefit from the session!
 
That's good to hear Carma. :)

I'm glad you're finding some peace and some time to think about yourself and your kidlets.

Virtual hugs back!
 
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