What to expect with poly relationship that none of us sought out

blytheandbonny

New member
First: This is almost unforgivably long. And I edited out a lot!

I discovered this forum a couple of days ago after the realization 4 days ago that my boyfriend, while completely committing to our relationship, is also still in love with his soon-to-be ex-wife. He will continue to enjoy a physically intimate relationship with her. At the same time, he tells me with complete sincerity that this in no way diminishes his feelings for or partnership with me.

I was sort of stunned at first. He is absolutely the most ethical person I know - perhaps that I've ever known. He would never, ever manipulate anyone for his benefit at their loss. I know that he would not tell me what I wanted to hear just so he could keep sleeping with me. The value he places on the emotional content of our intensely passionate sex life is tremendous.

Some background: I met my guy in late November last year. He was up front about being recently separated. He told me that he and his wife had had an issue that had plagued them the whole time and that in the last year had discovered that it was truly unsolvable. They would remain close friends, co-parents, and co-workers. Eventually he opened up about the nature of the problem: she is asexual, and he is decidedly sexual.

My first reaction was curiosity. I'd never considered asexuality as an orientation before. Sure I'd heard the word used, but not having had a reason to explore what that was all about before, was completely ignorant of what it really meant, what the spectrum looked like, and what life would be like for someone whose orientation was represented by less than a percentage of the population.

He made it clear that there was no intimate contact between them any longer. That once things had been decided, the small affections like kisses, hugs, and I love yous ceased. I asked all kinds of probing questions. I avidly read the asexuality forums. I was worried that she didn't want the divorce and that by getting involved with her husband before papers had even been filed, that I was passively victimizing her.

He assured me many times that this was not the case. That she was not only aware of me, but was on board. That she was relieved not to have to engage in sex or feel like she was depriving him of it, either. I relaxed somewhat.

Our relationship bloomed.

Fast forward to an unexpected catalyst.

She met up with an old friend from her hometown and had sex with him. My guy was floored - not so much that she made the choice to reach out to someone, but at all the circumstances around it and at what her thought process around it revealed.

Disclaimer: it's not really awesome of me to describe how she felt - but it's the keystone of this whole thing, so though I am probably missing some nuance and it's obnoxious of me to put her feelings into my words, I am going describe what I understood her to have reported she felt. If she reads this, I hope she'll accept my apologies for this presumption and for not quite getting it right if I miss the mark.

As with many asexual folks, while she is generally disinterested in sex, she still needs that human loving contact. She still needs to feel valued, cherished, attractive, and wanted. She needs affection. When my guy cut her off of from this last year, thinking it was the right, noble, society-expected thing to do, she keenly felt that loss. It fomented a growing sense of loneliness and eroded her sense of womanliness, her worthiness.

This was devastating to my guy. He was gobsmacked that he had missed this. He'd read plenty in the forums as well and intellectually knew that a lack of sexual desire does not equate a lack of need for affection. He felt responsible. This is a woman who he'd vowed to love and to take care of for a lifetime and who is still very much in his heart. He knows in his heart of hearts that it was his actions that sent her into that evening with the hometown friend needlessly.

Which brings us to where we are today. He presented his newly crystallized boundaries to me this week. He doesn't ever want her to feel that way again. He will provide her the physical affection and the words she needs.

Though they are still divorcing, he will in effect remain a loving husband to her in the ways that she wants, when she wants without the burden that comes with sexual pressure. We're talking kisses, caresses, embraces. And when those times roll around when what she does want want sex or more overtly sexual contact, he is unambiguous that he will be thrilled and honored to provide it.

Meanwhile, he maintains that he loves me dearly. That his feelings for me and relationship with me is completely unconnected to what's going on with his wife. That he sees a potential for a fantastic future with me. That love is not a finite scarce resource.

And I believe him.

So. I have no idea what my boundaries are. What it's acceptable to negotiate. When it's OK to express discomfort. What level of transparency would be best for me and for the relationship, and if those are the same. Any ideas about that from those who have come before would be very much appreciated.

I've asked tons of questions as I've probed how I feel about this. Been busy gathering data. Still pondering what this would look like and examining what my thresholds truly are. I've surprised myself at my easy acceptance of the idea of being on one side of a poly V. Of course, that's the abstract. Don't know what tomorrow holds. Hopefully not heartbreak.

Onward with the unexpected journey.
 
Off the top of my head:

- It's always OK to express your discomfort. Hopefully a constructive, non-accusatory way can be found BEFORE you reach a breaking point and snap in a completely inappropriate time or damaging way. Express yourself even if you're not sure that what you're feeling IS discomfort, maybe not sure what it is at all, just make sure to explain that confusion/uncertainty is part of what you're feeling.

- It's always acceptable to ask for something you want (though timing can be important!), as long as you're prepared for compromise and possibly even to be told, "No." Communicating about your needs is different. While compromise may be necessary and even valuable in the short-term, in the long-term you can't compromise on getting your needs met.

- As far as the level of transparency goes, only you and the others involved can decide this. There's nothing wrong with trial periods: "Let's try it *this way* for 2 weeks (or 2 months or whatever, depending on the question) and then revisit the question, see how it went and how we all feel about moving forward." Especially in a first poly relationship, you may not know what you are and are not comfortable with right off the bat, and that's okay. You may not discover a problem until after it happens, but hopefully you can keep in mind that no one is purposefully trying to hurt you. Time is your friend. Going slowly is your friend. A little patience, a little benefit of the doubt, and a LOT of communication are your friends.

From what you've written it sounds like all of you are dealing with a very complex situation amazingly well. I wish you all the best of luck!
 
Hello and welcome! I personally don't mind reading long posts if they are as well articulated and thought of as yours is.

Do you have a specific thing you'd like to ask? From a quick read, it seems you are just rewording how you feel. I don't mean to belittle anything when I use "just" -it's a huge accomplishment to become so self-aware as you are now.

Couple of questions:

1) Have you talked with your metamour, or is all of your knowledge of the situation second-hand?
2) Do you have or imagine having any other relationships? How about your bf? How about your metamour?
3) How would you feel if they called off the divorce and staid married? How would you feel if they resumed an occasionally-sexual relationship, instead of just keeping it as a possibility?

You've probably read a ton of similar stuff, but I just want to quote this months issue of DIVA, which ran an article on asexuality:

"However, just when we thought we had asexuality down, Kayleigh throws us a curveball by telling us she enjoys kissing, has the ability to fall in love and has sex with her girlfriends occasionally. This begs the question, if person partakes in what most people perceive as sexual acts, can they really be asexual? Kayleigh explains that her reason for occasionally having sex with her girlfriends is because she knows it pleases them. However, she clarifies that it's never something she is coerced into doing. 'I don't think it's fair that I get most of what I need from the relationship and they don't, to which they said they'd rather not have sex than make me uncomfortable,' she tells me.

She also enjoys kissing, but unlike most of us, never sees it as a prelude to sex: 'Kissing feels good, like hugging or holding hands. I could spend an hour just kissing someone in bed, naked, and it would never cross my mind that it would lead to sex.'" (DIVA magazine May 2012, p. 55)
 
Off the top of my head:

- It's always OK to express your discomfort. Hopefully a constructive, non-accusatory way can be found BEFORE you reach a breaking point and snap in a completely inappropriate time or damaging way. Express yourself even if you're not sure that what you're feeling IS discomfort, maybe not sure what it is at all, just make sure to explain that confusion/uncertainty is part of what you're feeling.

- It's always acceptable to ask for something you want (though timing can be important!), as long as you're prepared for compromise and possibly even to be told, "No." Communicating about your needs is different. While compromise may be necessary and even valuable in the short-term, in the long-term you can't compromise on getting your needs met.

- As far as the level of transparency goes, only you and the others involved can decide this. There's nothing wrong with trial periods: "Let's try it *this way* for 2 weeks (or 2 months or whatever, depending on the question) and then revisit the question, see how it went and how we all feel about moving forward." Especially in a first poly relationship, you may not know what you are and are not comfortable with right off the bat, and that's okay. You may not discover a problem until after it happens, but hopefully you can keep in mind that no one is purposefully trying to hurt you. Time is your friend. Going slowly is your friend. A little patience, a little benefit of the doubt, and a LOT of communication are your friends.

From what you've written it sounds like all of you are dealing with a very complex situation amazingly well. I wish you all the best of luck!

Thank you for these excellent recommendations. I think I will tend to err on the side of over communicating. My failed marriage had dearth of communication, so it's possible that I'm overcompensating in the other direction.

I've stuck my toe in the water by being very open to his expressing to me verbally and in written word how he feels about her, and to my shock it didn't sting as much as I thought it would. It was mild discomfort, and that seems to be fading. Then, unexpectedly (well, all of this is unexpected, so that should be the new norm, right?) my heart welled up at the beauty of their love. What's that all about? Weird.

I particularly like this suggestion of having pre-arranged time-boxed thresholds with scheduled check-ins. Will definitely use that.
 
Hello and welcome! I personally don't mind reading long posts if they are as well articulated and thought of as yours is.

Do you have a specific thing you'd like to ask? From a quick read, it seems you are just rewording how you feel. I don't mean to belittle anything when I use "just" -it's a huge accomplishment to become so self-aware as you are now.

Couple of questions:

1) Have you talked with your metamour, or is all of your knowledge of the situation second-hand?
2) Do you have or imagine having any other relationships? How about your bf? How about your metamour?
3) How would you feel if they called off the divorce and staid married? How would you feel if they resumed an occasionally-sexual relationship, instead of just keeping it as a possibility?

Yeah, I guess this was mostly an essay and an exercise in self-articulation - though I am in fact very eager to leverage the lessons that those who have come before me have learned. Hoping for tips and suggestions for carefully and thoughtfully entering into a type of relationship with which I have no experience.

I have not talked to her directly - we've only seen each other once for about 90 seconds. Until yesterday, this was all filtered through him...but now, we've both posted things on the Internet in our own words, so there's that. She's on a different forum.

I do not imagine having other relationships. I want this one relationship exclusively.

Wow, I don't know about how I would handle if they called off the divorce and stayed married. I wish I wasn't sensitive to social pressure/norms as far as the outside world is concerned. But I am. I need for my relationship with him to be something I'm open about to my peer group and family, and if they stayed married that would be very awkward. Also, given his career, I don't think it would be feasible for him to have an extra love openly. Yeah, the more I think about it, the less chance of success for our relationship there is should they remain married.

As for how I would feel if the dynamic became occasional v. a possibility...hm. I would like to think that everyone would tread carefully and that we could work out parameters around that. I would need an annoying amount of assurances that my side of the V was still intact and unaffected. Beyond that, I have no idea.

I do think that there will be nights they choose to spend the night together over at her place. Not sure it's any of my business what they choose to do or not do on those nights. Not sure that not knowing what they choose to do or not do won't make me crazy though. I suspect it will just have to be a trial and error situation. I'd hate to think that either of them worrying about my feelings would dampen anything between them though. They deserve to treasure what they have between them without outside influence.
 
I do not imagine having other relationships. I want this one relationship exclusively.
That's perfectly normal. Several people here are mono themselves but part of a poly relationship. :)

I wish I wasn't sensitive to social pressure/norms as far as the outside world is concerned. But I am. I need for my relationship with him to be something I'm open about to my peer group and family, and if they stayed married that would be very awkward. Also, given his career, I don't think it would be feasible for him to have an extra love openly. Yeah, the more I think about it, the less chance of success for our relationship there is should they remain married.
This struck a chord with me. I completely understand wanting to be able to be open and honest about your relationship. It's very hard sometimes for TGIB and I to hide our relationship (from certain family members and in the workplace), and we both wish at times we didn't need to. I wonder, if for some reason they did decide to stay married, could it be presented as, "They're still good friends and for financial and other reasons decided to not get divorced, but no longer have a traditional marriage. She's aware of his relationship with me and is fine with it." Reasonable explanation AND true! The rest of it is no one's business.

I would need an annoying amount of assurances that my side of the V was still intact and unaffected. Beyond that, I have no idea.

I do think that there will be nights they choose to spend the night together over at her place. Not sure it's any of my business what they choose to do or not do on those nights. Not sure that not knowing what they choose to do or not do won't make me crazy though. I suspect it will just have to be a trial and error situation. I'd hate to think that either of them worrying about my feelings would dampen anything between them though.
Totally know what you're talking about here! In the past two months my V has gone through the first time I've slept with someone besides my husband (yes, TGIB waited a LONG time!) as well as the first time TGIB has slept with someone else while in a relationship with me. Figuring out how much information is the "right" amount between each couple is a tough path to navigate. Luckily we're all fairly laid back, and ultimately discovered that MC (hubby) doesn't need or even want to know details, but he's fine with hearing about it if I need or want to talk about my physical relationship with TGIB, while for myself I don't need to hear details from TGIB about his other experiences but I like and enjoy hearing about them if he wants to share. The three of us have reached an understanding that it's okay to ask if you're curious about something, but, "Well, I'm not really comfortable telling you about that" is an acceptable response and not meant to leave anyone out or hurt anyone's feelings. Sometimes it's just not possible to know where the limits are until you reach them, so there's nothing wrong with asking as long as you're comfortable with not being able to dictate the answer.
They deserve to treasure what they have between them without outside influence.
This is why I think you'll be fine. Though this may be new, unusual, and a surprise to you, your attitude already seems extremely mature and emotionally stable. You'll likely be able to handle any bumps you run into, as you seem to have done so far!
 
She met up with an old friend from her hometown and had sex with him. My guy was floored - not so much that she made the choice to reach out to someone, but at all the circumstances around it and at what her thought process around it revealed.

This was devastating to my guy. He was gobsmacked that he had missed this. He'd read plenty in the forums as well and intellectually knew that a lack of sexual desire does not equate a lack of need for affection. He felt responsible. This is a woman who he'd vowed to love and to take care of for a lifetime and who is still very much in his heart. He knows in his heart of hearts that it was his actions that sent her into that evening with the hometown friend needlessly.

Maybe I'm missing something.....

Why is it bad that she had sex with someone else? Was she traumatized? Was she coerced? Is she emotionally damaged and seriously regretful over it? Is she trying to place responsibility for her actions on your guy? I mean, she is a grown adult right? He has had for a while now the ability to be intimate with people other than her so why is it a big bad thing if she decides to do so too?
 
Maybe I'm missing something.....

Why is it bad that she had sex with someone else? Was she traumatized? Was she coerced? Is she emotionally damaged and seriously regretful over it? Is she trying to place responsibility for her actions on your guy? I mean, she is a grown adult right? He has had for a while now the ability to be intimate with people other than her so why is it a big bad thing if she decides to do so too?

The soon-to-be-ex wife IDs as asexual. As I understood the story, she was so low on feeling loved and appreciated that she sought out this sexual relationship, which she didn't really want (being asexual) to get some of the feelings back.

And the soon-to-be-ex hubs felt that if he hadn't withdrawn from all affectionate contact out of misunderstanding (since some asexual people do not like to be touched at all, while his ex obviously does), she wouldn't have had to seek out this one-night-stand out of desperation.
 
The soon-to-be-ex wife IDs as asexual. As I understood the story, she was so low on feeling loved and appreciated that she sought out this sexual relationship, which she didn't really want (being asexual) to get some of the feelings back.

And the soon-to-be-ex hubs felt that if he hadn't withdrawn from all affectionate contact out of misunderstanding (since some asexual people do not like to be touched at all, while his ex obviously does), she wouldn't have had to seek out this one-night-stand out of desperation.

No no, I get that part. But being asexual doesn't mean someone has to choose to never have sex with anyone. And she has stated she does want and desire affection, has had it with her soon to be ex, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility that she might choose to be intimate with someone else at some point.
Seeing as I saw nothing mentioned about her being coerced or distraught over it, not even a mention that it was something she did only out of "desperation", I'm confused as to why the soon to be ex is feeling so responsible or that her being intimate with someone was indeed a completely bad thing. Even if she is regretful after the fact, her soon to be ex didn't MAKE her choose to sleep with the fella. If she feels that way, that would indicate a pretty strong lack of accountability on her part unless she was coerced.
 
Seeing as I saw nothing mentioned about her being coerced or distraught over it, not even a mention that it was something she did only out of "desperation", I'm confused as to why the soon to be ex is feeling so responsible or that her being intimate with someone was indeed a completely bad thing. Even if she is regretful after the fact, her soon to be ex didn't MAKE her choose to sleep with the fella. If she feels that way, that would indicate a pretty strong lack of accountability on her part unless she was coerced.

Sorry, I should clarify. I was trying to be economical with words (not my strong suit) and left out some detail.

His feelings / sense of responsibility about the situation here are not identical to hers. Now, it's sort of sketchy of me to describe for them what they're feeling/thinking, but this is my understanding of it.

Her take on it: She was nostalgic, pleasantly inebriated, sort of lonely, and curious. She does not regret it. It wasn't unpleasant and it confirmed for her internally that she's just not that into sex - as opposed to the possibility that she in fact does want it, just not with hubs. Shaking off the dude she did the deed with's demand for a repeat has been a bit of a chore and dealing with the aftermath of hub's reaction hasn't been peaches and cream, but I don't think that it would be on her radar to suggest that anyone made her do anything she didn't want to do.

If anything, it's given her the vocabulary to express to hubs where she is and what her needs are. This is all a plus.

His take on it: She placed herself at risk with someone who's motives / methods he doesn't trust because he deprived her of the sort of affection and tokens of love that she does crave (and he still feels.) Therefore, he feels like he forced this situation to happen and that the responsibility is his. Also, he's extremely non-plussed that he broke up their otherwise strong and mutually highly valued marriage to protect her from the demands of sexual pressure...only to have her chose to go off with someone she hasn't seen in years and have a casual thing and share something that he considers sacred between them (my words, not his) with this other guy. He says, "I didn't seek sex and intimacy from someone else because I wanted it from someone else — I sought it from someone else because it was the only option." And then beats himself up because he believes that he himself was the catalyst that set that evening in motion.

Now, at the same time, he freely says that he's supportive of her having an experience that clarified for her information about herself that she couldn't have attained otherwise.

My take on it is pretty irrelevant. But I do feel like I have to listen to what he says his feelings are and treat those with respect.
 
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If I may, as the hubby in question:

We're all mono people — we're accustomed to one set of rules and social norms that we've all adhered to for all of our lives. That being said, if you can understand that the following intellectual and emotional positions emerge from a place firmly established with those set of starting assumptions, it may make this a little clearer. Hopefully.

The sexual experience bothered me because I explicitly exited the marriage because she didn't want sex. And understand, my primary motivation for exit wasn't that I had to have sex — it was that I didn't want her to have to have sex. It wasn't that she didn't want sex with me, it was that she didn't want sex.

She says her action was a combination of loneliness, nostalgia, alcohol and also pure intellectual curiosity which reinforced in her mind that her asexuality was universal. All of those things are independent of me with the exception of loneliness — so I don't feel any shame in owning my part of that situation that she may not view negatively, but that certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

To be fair, the aftermath has clearly been viewed negatively by her — both in the manner that it has complicated a friendship that she valued and was a situation that created a temporary rift between us as I worked through my valid emotions while still respecting the intellectual insights she gained.

So, let me go ahead and throw out something I've been struggling with. The idea that I can have intimate emotional and physical relationships with multiple people and yet would not be comfortable with those people having intimate emotional and physical relationships with other people is something that's real and deep rooted. I'm just not.

I understand the imbalance and I loathe imbalance, but I feel like I'm in this situation because of a set of specific circumstances and coincidence buttressed by my sense of ethics and responsibility to my previous partner and my current girlfriend. The idea of monogamy is in direct conflict with my desire to love, cherish and respect the two people I want to.

tl;dnr = it's freaking messy and confusing and I'm doing the best I can, flawed creature that I am.

That felt good. Glad to have a place where I can talk like that...:)
 
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Re (from blytheandbonny, Post #1):
"So. I have no idea what my boundaries are. What's acceptable to negotiate. When it's okay to express discomfort."

It's okay to express discomfort whenever you feel discomfort. It's just that simple. (Although like ThatGirlInGray said, hopefully you can express it in a nice way.)

Re (from blytheandbonny, Post #1):
"I've asked tons of questions as I've probed how I feel about this. Been busy gathering data. Still pondering what this would look like and examining what my thresholds truly are. I've surprised myself at my easy acceptance of the idea of being on one side of a poly V. Of course, that's the abstract. Don't know what tomorrow holds."

Ah, but who among us knows what tomorrow holds? You've done your homework; now for the scary part of living the reality. Remember that every relationship is unique (as unique as the people in it), so you'll have to learn (by experience) what works for you (versus what theoretically works for everyone).

Re (from blytheandbonny, Post #4):
"I think I will tend to err on the side of over-communicating."

There you go, that's the ticket.

Re (from blytheandbonny, Post #4):
"I've stuck my toe in the water by being very open to his expressing to me verbally and in written word how he feels about her, and to my shock it didn't sting as much as I thought it would. It was mild discomfort, and that seems to be fading. Then, unexpectedly, my heart welled up at the beauty of their love. What's that all about? Weird."

That's called compersion. :)

Re (from blytheandbonny, Post #5):
"I do think that there will be nights they choose to spend the night together over at her place. Not sure it's any of my business what they choose to do or not do on those nights."

Well yeah, I think it's kind of your business, if it's something you'd want to hear about. There's probably a happy medium in here somewhere between knowing "every little detail" and "knowing nothing" (which lets some folks's imaginations run wild).

Re (from blytheandbonny, Post #5):
"I'd hate to think that either of them worrying about my feelings would dampen anything between them though. They deserve to treasure what they have between them without outside influence."

Ah, but you guys have a poly relationship with each other now. Nothing happens in a vacuum. You are an "inside influence."

Each of you will have your tricky feelings to contend with. This is a new reality for the three of you. You'll all have to get used to it (in your own various ways).

Re (from ThatGirlInGray, Post #6):
"Sometimes it's just not possible to know where the limits are until you reach them, so there's nothing wrong with asking as long as you're comfortable with not being able to dictate the answer."

Well said, well said.

Re (from FigNewtonian, Post #11):
"So, let me go ahead and throw out something I've been struggling with. The idea that I can have intimate emotional and physical relationships with multiple people, and yet would not be comfortable with those people having intimate emotional and physical relationships with other people, is something that's real and deep rooted. I'm just not."

That's actually okay, as long as all three of you are good with it and it works for (all of) you.

Re (from FigNewtonian, Post #11):
"I understand the imbalance and I loathe imbalance, but I feel like I'm in this situation because of a set of specific circumstances and coincidence buttressed by my sense of ethics and responsibility to my previous partner and my current girlfriend. The idea of monogamy is in direct conflict with my desire to love, cherish and respect the two people I want to."

If it's any comfort, you're not alone in having "stumbled into polyamory." Many people have, including yours truly here. Probably has something to do with the media's/society's innundation with monogamous visuals and ideals, but perhaps the point of the matter is you do what's best for you and your loved ones, not basing the decision on "expectations" from the poly community or the "outside world." It doesn't even matter if you call yourself polyamorous (or monogamous, or sort-of-monogamous, or whatever). It just matters that the three of you are happy.
 
If I may, as the hubby in question:

Thank you for joining the conversation! I think B&B was uncomfortable speaking for others (even though it would seem that the two of you have been very clear in your discussions with each other) so it is helpful to hear your thoughts directly.

(clipped very good summation of intellectual and emotional responses - confirms a lot of what B&B thought/felt was going on)


The idea that I can have intimate emotional and physical relationships with multiple people and yet would not be comfortable with those people having intimate emotional and physical relationships with other people is something that's real and deep rooted. I'm just not.

I understand the imbalance and I loathe imbalance, but I feel like I'm in this situation because of a set of specific circumstances and coincidence buttressed by my sense of ethics and responsibility to my previous partner and my current girlfriend.

With you guys coming from a place of monogamy I find this not at all surprising - I have read a number of people here post about this. Since neither of the woman in question seem to be pushing for equal (sexual/romantic) freedom at this point (unless I missed it) I don't know that you have to push yourself to go there just yet. I would add a caveat that even "real and deep rooted" feelings CAN change over time for some people (not saying that they WILL of course).

For years and years MrS felt that he could not take me being with another man (I'm bi and, for him, me being with girls was not as threatening) and it was not an issue for a long long time. When the time came that it needed to be addressed again his initial response was almost a reflexive "NO!!!!"...and then, after some chaos and turbulence...and a lot of consideration...the answer changed to YES. He found that in the intervening decades, something had changed for him - he just hadn't realized it.

In the meantime this is still very new. My advice (FWIW) Be gentle with yourselves. Work with what you have and come to peace with where you are before moving further along some sort of "poly continuum" (if indeed you all feel the need to do so at some point - no reason that you have to if everyone is on board with how things are).

The idea of monogamy is in direct conflict with my desire to love, cherish and respect the two people I want to.

tl;dnr = it's freaking messy and confusing and I'm doing the best I can, flawed creature that I am.

This, I think is the crux of it. And why I think you all have a chance of making it work. I think that you have all learned valuable (and perhaps surprising) things about yourselves and each other during this part of your journey. I'm impressed with how thoughtful you are being toward each other while still, it seems, making your needs (and fears and hopes) known.

That felt good. Glad to have a place where I can talk like that...:)

Excellent! I have found that posting here can be quite therapeutic - just getting the words out seems to help clarify my thinking. As an added bonus, being able to talk to people who may have been through similar struggles (as well as people that can sometimes ask tough questions) may help give you some helping hands along the road.

Good luck to you!

JaneQ
 
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If I may, as the hubby in question:

We're all mono people — we're accustomed to one set of rules and social norms that we've all adhered to for all of our lives. That being said, if you can understand that the following intellectual and emotional positions emerge from a place firmly established with those set of starting assumptions, it may make this a little clearer. Hopefully.

The sexual experience bothered me because I explicitly exited the marriage because she didn't want sex. And understand, my primary motivation for exit wasn't that I had to have sex — it was that I didn't want her to have to have sex. It wasn't that she didn't want sex with me, it was that she didn't want sex.

She says her action was a combination of loneliness, nostalgia, alcohol and also pure intellectual curiosity which reinforced in her mind that her asexuality was universal. All of those things are independent of me with the exception of loneliness — so I don't feel any shame in owning my part of that situation that she may not view negatively, but that certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

To be fair, the aftermath has clearly been viewed negatively by her — both in the manner that it has complicated a friendship that she valued and was a situation that created a temporary rift between us as I worked through my valid emotions while still respecting the intellectual insights she gained.

So, let me go ahead and throw out something I've been struggling with. The idea that I can have intimate emotional and physical relationships with multiple people and yet would not be comfortable with those people having intimate emotional and physical relationships with other people is something that's real and deep rooted. I'm just not.

I understand the imbalance and I loathe imbalance, but I feel like I'm in this situation because of a set of specific circumstances and coincidence buttressed by my sense of ethics and responsibility to my previous partner and my current girlfriend. The idea of monogamy is in direct conflict with my desire to love, cherish and respect the two people I want to.

tl;dnr = it's freaking messy and confusing and I'm doing the best I can, flawed creature that I am.

That felt good. Glad to have a place where I can talk like that...:)

In my past relationships where someone had different expectations for me than they held themselves, felt my actions were more reactions to them than they were choices I made, my desire for them died.
 
The idea that I can have intimate emotional and physical relationships with multiple people and yet would not be comfortable with those people having intimate emotional and physical relationships with other people is something that's real and deep rooted. I'm just not.
Hmmmm, this could become a real issue. I think this would be a really good thing to work on. Check out threads on One Penis Policies (OPP) and see what others have said. You can do a tag search for that.

Generally it just doesn't work for the long run to expect that those you are dating stay monogamous to you. You can't really expect that. Sure, they might want to do that, and be happy to, but the imbalance of them knowing that you would object seeps in with time for most and relationships with imbalances such as an OPP are not healthy ones in my opinion. It might be time to face why you feel the way you do.
 
The one penis policy thought does run common with a few destructive themes.
That sex is something men do to women, not something they have with a woman and certainly never the other way around (heterosexually speaking of course). And through this it either is regrettable for the woman as if she stands less to gain from it like he does.Or regrettable to the man because his needs being so much greater he must use her in such a fashion. It implies he has power in the relationship she doesn't. It implies that a woman's desire should be lower by nature than any man's desire. This can cause sex to seem a bad/dirty thing to the woman over time and the one of the ways she can avoid feeling powerless is to say no to intimacy.

Now, I'm not trying to accuse Fig of being a bad person here. This mentality is born of echos from a male dominated history that gets reduced with every new generation. Trying to shame you over it would be, to me anyway, like shaming someone from that fight/flight feeling one gets when they realize a snake is near them in the woods. It can feel instinctual.

But it is the words used in BaB and Fig's posts that stuck out to me and drew my attention. He notices the imbalance but words it as something that just is - making me wonder if the women in his life have to do more adjusting for him than he does for them. I don't think it is malicious but it can cause a lack of care for his needs as a passive payback on their part. I'd even go so far as to wonder if his soon to be ex wife might not be so asexual as it would seem. She tells him she regrets it, but seeing as his feeling on the matter "just are", she might not feel any other answer on the matter would be well received by him. They are already divorcing. Upsetting him more might feel a further risk for rejection to her.
I took note that one of the motivations she had for sleeping with the fella was curiosity. Curiosity about sex is healthy and she should feel like she can act on her curiosities without angering Fig. He feels wife put herself at risk? - Does Fig also feel he is at risk when he chooses to be with someone else? Are the motivations of women something he should be on guard for too? Or is it just a risk for women? Are the motivations of men always bad? All this can make sex seem scary and sinister.
Shouldn't she be angry with him for his actions with BaB? Or not so because its different for him being a man? She may be seeking a way to identify with his behavior and heal herself. I also notice that she was curious and acted on it but once the fella wanted to have sex again, she shut it down proving she is still the one in control of what happens to her body. The first time SHE CHOSE. His request could have been seen by her as taking her power to choose.
Also to the assumption that she did this because Fig deprived her of tokens and affection. I get why he would assume this as it is why he sought out someone else when he felt deprived of intimacy. It still implies she can't have wanted intimacy with someone new too. She also followed it up with "and all it did was reinforce that I don't want to have sex". So she is still safe from feeling like she has to now have sex with Fig again at his request.

I guess what I'm saying is dealing with this mentality regarding sex and woman's role within it could have put a damper on the soon to be ex wife's sexual desire for Fig. Causing a lack of intimacy between them. Causing Fig to look elsewhere while still not being able to accept it from the two women in his life. Just some possibilities to chew on and discuss.
 
The one penis policy thought does run common with a few destructive themes.
That sex is something men do to women, not something they have with a woman and certainly never the other way around (heterosexually speaking of course). And through this it either is regrettable for the woman as if she stands less to gain from it like he does.Or regrettable to the man because his needs being so much greater he must use her in such a fashion. It implies he has power in the relationship she doesn't. It implies that a woman's desire should be lower by nature than any man's desire. This can cause sex to seem a bad/dirty thing to the woman over time and the one of the ways she can avoid feeling powerless is to say no to intimacy.

Now, I'm not trying to accuse Fig of being a bad person here. This mentality is born of echos from a male dominated history that gets reduced with every new generation. Trying to shame you over it would be, to me anyway, like shaming someone from that fight/flight feeling one gets when they realize a snake is near them in the woods. It can feel instinctual.

But it is the words used in BaB and Fig's posts that stuck out to me and drew my attention. He notices the imbalance but words it as something that just is - making me wonder if the women in his life have to do more adjusting for him than he does for them. I don't think it is malicious but it can cause a lack of care for his needs as a passive payback on their part. I'd even go so far as to wonder if his soon to be ex wife might not be so asexual as it would seem. She tells him she regrets it, but seeing as his feeling on the matter "just are", she might not feel any other answer on the matter would be well received by him. They are already divorcing. Upsetting him more might feel a further risk for rejection to her.
I took note that one of the motivations she had for sleeping with the fella was curiosity. Curiosity about sex is healthy and she should feel like she can act on her curiosities without angering Fig. He feels wife put herself at risk? - Does Fig also feel he is at risk when he chooses to be with someone else? Are the motivations of women something he should be on guard for too? Or is it just a risk for women? Are the motivations of men always bad? All this can make sex seem scary and sinister.
Shouldn't she be angry with him for his actions with BaB? Or not so because its different for him being a man? She may be seeking a way to identify with his behavior and heal herself. I also notice that she was curious and acted on it but once the fella wanted to have sex again, she shut it down proving she is still the one in control of what happens to her body. The first time SHE CHOSE. His request could have been seen by her as taking her power to choose.
Also to the assumption that she did this because Fig deprived her of tokens and affection. I get why he would assume this as it is why he sought out someone else when he felt deprived of intimacy. It still implies she can't have wanted intimacy with someone new too. She also followed it up with "and all it did was reinforce that I don't want to have sex". So she is still safe from feeling like she has to now have sex with Fig again at his request.

I guess what I'm saying is dealing with this mentality regarding sex and woman's role within it could have put a damper on the soon to be ex wife's sexual desire for Fig. Causing a lack of intimacy between them. Causing Fig to look elsewhere while still not being able to accept it from the two women in his life. Just some possibilities to chew on and discuss.

Just checked in here before walking out of the door in a few minutes, and wanted to post a quick reply, though I intend to come back later with a more thorough one. No promises though.

First few thoughts - as someone with a degree in Women's Studies, I totally get this line of thinking.

However.

It seems to me that for this analysis to work here, the three of us would have to be unaware of and therefore unconsciously embrace this very patriarchal construct. The first premise: that sex is something men do to women is the underlier of the whole argument, and though I may not always be the most self-aware and insightful person, I am very confident that none of us in this arrangement feels that way.

But really, my biggest problem with this whole argument is the part where it assumes that Fig's wife feels like she has no agency and is (perhaps unconsciously) using her sexuality to exert otherwise absent control in the face of insidious oppression.

She has and exerts her own agency all of the time. Her asexuality is a real thing and not derivative of some roiling internal unresolved psychological state. She does not have and never has had a subversive agenda.

She's amazing, in control of her own life, and we should not insult her - or him - by pretending otherwise. Sure, she's got some self-discovery to do given that until not that long ago she'd never considered that she was asexual, but that doesn't mean that we should not listen to her words and respect her self-assertions.
 
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I feel this discussion could well benefit from a more sympathetic view of asexuality.

Sexual therapists and sexologists have, since the inception of the discipline in the early 1900's, operated from a very sex-normative worldview. This is not how most people perhaps ever have viewed sex, in our culture or elsewhere. However, sexology succeeded in asserting itself as THE view on the reality of sex.

Most basic premises of sexology are:
1) Sexuality is an inborn need, operating according to an instinct model (libido).
2) If sexuality is not expressed via genital, orgasmic sex, it builds up and finds other outlets, possibly perverse, repressed or channeled (subliminated) modes of expression.
3) Sexuality is something everyone has, and it holds the ultimate truth of who and what we are.

The general critique of needs and instinct theories in psychology has not really affected the mainstream sexological discipline. Despite the abysmal failure of both psychoanalysis and its sub-discipline sexology to prove that genital orgasmic sexual expression is vital for human mental health and homeostasis (the balance of our bodily needs that allows us to survive), the school operates much like a religion: unbelievers are declared abnormal. They are repressing their true desires, which follow the religion's doctrine.

According to mainstream sexology, asexuality is sexual dysfunction, not a real, independent phenomenon. Asexual people have to deal with people judging them and devaluing their experience every day. Much like non-straight folks, they have to constantly face questions like "Are you sure this is not a phase?", "Maybe you just haven't met the right partner yet", or "So you occasionally enjoy the thought or actuality of straight sex, so YOU MUST BE STRAIGHT ALL ALONG".

Much like the majority of sexual people do not need to have actual genital contact with someone to determine that they, indeed, have sexual interest towards others, the majority of asexual people do not need to try sexuality on for size, while many do because societal pressure, curiosity and/or because they believe the sexological dogma that tells them they cannot be.

If you want to know more about asexuality, I suggest checking out the resources on asexuality.org and especially their forum.
 
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Viccenzo: Isn't there a possibility that everything I've said is accurate? That you can take my words as they're presented? That she's asexual. That there's no hidden — intentional or otherwise — agenda at play. That we're three people trying to muddle along as best we can in a new and entirely unfamiliar world?

The wife's response when reading your post?
*groan* ... Oh look, someone else who feels the need to read imaginary stuff between the lines.

One of the worst parts for her of discovering and dealing with her asexuality is the social view that she's somehow wrong. That she just hasn't met the right guy. That she had some deep-seated trauma that made her this way. The guy that she slept with has tried to make the argument that "He knows she wants it because she's a woman" and there's always some jerk out there who thinks he can plow into a woman hard enough to "fix her."

I love my wife deeply. We've spent more than a decade together and we were each other's first — and on our wedding night no less. I hope that shines a brighter light on where we're both coming from as people, why we have viewed sex the way we have and the need for other experiences to eliminate any ambiguous variables.

It was hard, reading your post, not to take it as a cross between dime store analysis and a conspiracy theory that paints both myself and my wife in a quite unflattering light.

I don't mind critical analysis — I'm INTJ, I dig it — but I would also hope in the future that some weight could be given to the words of the people who come here looking for help, support and answers.

BlackUnicorn: I kind of want to give you a hug. AVEN has been a safe haven for both of us since we discovered it last year. We're both on the forums and active. I thank you very, very much for your post. Aces should have the right to be who they are without being judged by a normative standard — something that I would think would be second nature coming from a community of people who don't exactly subscribe to the normative standard themselves.
 
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