Need Advice - Very... very weird situation

BillNIndy

Member
I am in a V with a married woman. Prior to engaging in a relationship with Boo (37), I asked her husband Thinker (54) for his blessing to begin dating his wife. D was very accepting and eager for me to date her.

Thinker & Boo had discussed their desire to live life poly. (As it turns out, Boo is poly, Thinker is more "swinger" -- really can't handle the emotional attachments)

Boo and I began dating and quickly found that we were amazingly compatible and had so much in common that we connected emotionally extremely quickly. (Soon followed by a physical connection after we both were tested for STIs, etc.)

After our feelings for each other began to turn from "wow" to "love", Thinker began to feel very threatened by Boo's love for me. He asked me to "bow out" because I was starting to cause problems with their marriage. Boo and I discussed this because I felt that she should have a say in this decision since it's her life and our relationship was not his to control (Boo and Thinker neither have VETO power).

After talking to Boo, we decided that what we have is too significant to toss aside and we both really want to see where our relationship will take us. Boo believes in not having "primary" and "secondary" relationships. She and I both believe that labeling relationships can make one seem more valuable than the other, which is not the point for us. Each relationship, while unique, has equal value to our lives.

So, since Boo and I decided not to stop seeing each other, Thinker kind of .... well, no not kind of... REALLY went off the deep end. Thinker is a psycho-therapist and is very cerebral.

He began getting increasingly manic.. He started by being very manipulative then turned to blaming Boo for his downward spiraling mental health. He became verbally and emotionally abusive towards her. He took her daughter to a hotel (without Boo's knowledge and consent) because he said that Boo's decision to continue seeing me was poor judgment and was tired of Boo's daughter being exposed to it and to her being "absent" even when she was home. He "diagnosed" me after only meeting me a few times for a few minutes and began spouting out how I have some major psychological issues and trying to convince Boo that I really didn't love her because I am "a sociopath" and that I am unable to have real emotions, etc.... (very, very weird stuff -- You should see the e-mails...)

He would do things like be in the car with Boo and they would start talking about the issues and about our relationship and he would lliterally stop the car, get out and RUN down the street, leaving Boo in the passenger seat of the car.

He dropped to the floor in Wal-Mart like a 2 year old, lying on his stomach, hitting the ground with his fists and kicking and screaming because Boo would not quit seeing me...... (this is a 54 year old man we are talking about....) People from aisles all around were coming to see what was going on and if this man was ok, which infuriated and embarrassed Boo to no end.

Thinker had finally decided that since we would not stop, we were now having an "illicit affair".

Boo kept trying to work on things with Thinker. Thinker eventually stayed at a friend's house for 3-4 weeks, and Boo would go over there almost daily to visit with him and try and work on these issues and get him to realize that she IS NOT going to stop seeing me and that she DOES NOT want to lose him, but she can't/won't NOT live Poly.

It never really got better from here. Boo & I were spending the weekend last weekend at a friend of her &thinkerD's house celebrating her daughter's birthday party. (with Thinker's knowledge that I was there --- although he wasn't thrilled about it, but Boo's daughter really wanted me there) Thinker was very upset/manic on Sunday morning and tracked down Boo and I at the grocery store simply to say he was "done" and he wanted a divorce. He said that he would move the rest of his stuff from their apartment, he no longer considered her his wife, he took 1/2 of their joint savings, etc. That's the end of it. Boo was very sad to hear this, but after all that he had put her through over the past few weeks, she was almost numb to this news... it was a "relief" in many ways.

He called us up after that interaction and told us that he told the home owners (where we were staying for the weekend) about our "affair" and that how I was there disrespecting their house and how I had these mental illnesses, etc. and that the home owners wanted me to leave their house IMMEDIATELY and that they wanted T and her daughter to leave as soon as they got the place clean.

Boo was devastated/pissed off about all of this. She felt that Thinker was out telling lies on her and sharing her personal business with people that had no reason to know. We left and that was that......

The next day (Monday), Thinker asked to meet Boo for breakfast to discuss some things concerning the end of their marriage. Boo agreed to go see him yet again. When they met, Thinker was (as Boo put it) "back to normal" and very calm. He said that he "releases her" from her wifely responsibilities, no longer considers them a couple, but wants to keep her in his life (he'd rather have something with her than nothing).

So, he has proposed: He will be her 'sugar daddy'... For companionship and sex, he will pay her bills. They will remain legally married until one or the other decides that they don't want it anymore. Boo & Thinker will go to relationship counseling together to learn how to better communicate with each other (at Thinker's expense)

Boo's agreed to this at this point because Thinker is acting "like his old self". I am SOOOOO hesitant about this whole thing.

I feel like Thinker screwed up his chance with Boo. If for no other reason, the manipulation, verbal and emotional abuse that she has had to endure from him. I understand that Boo is a very loving, compassionate and forgiving woman.... But I don't understand her willingness... idk. Not to mention the complete disrespect for/towards me.

If I ever dated someone that treated a partner of mine with the contempt/disrespect that I felt from him.... That'd be the end of that. All of my partners in my eyes are equals. You don't have to be friends, but you sure as hell aren't going to disrespect each other and put me in an emotional tight spot and try to FORCE me to pick YOUR side, which is exactly what Thinker had done to Boo.

So, I had spent yesterday/last night with Boo and I am spending tonight at her house as well. Before I came to work, it was important that all of my stuff was put up because Thinker was coming over... She didn't want it out for him to see. (For her own reasons)

Although their marriage is "over" according to them both, they are spending every day together (at least in some portion - she spent about an hour at his house yesterday while I sat at her apartment alone) since they decided it was "over".

So, these are my thoughts/concerns/questions:
1. He still has her ear on a daily basis to "plant seeds" of his contempt for me. (Boo says she doesn't allow him to speak ill of me and I believe it... But that doesn't make me feel better.)

2. If their marriage is over, why do they continue to be around each other daily?

3. Why/How can she forgive him for putting her through what he didn't her, her daughter or for treating me the way he did?

4. They're staying "legally married" .... which would prevent us from ever taking that step if we wanted to in the future.

5. Why do I feel like I am still playing "second fiddle" to him? I mean, he knows I'm there... why hide my stuff in the closet so he doesn't see it? Why walk on eggshells? I feel like she's hiding our relationship just so she can keep hi from "dealing" with it.

6. How can I convey this all to her.... all my thoughts on the situation... without sounding like I'm telling her WHAT to do. She's a grown woman. I'm not JEALOUS -- I've processed that much. I am upset with him. I dislike the person he is. I feel he's been horrible towards my girlfriend. He doesn't deserve to spend time with such an amazing woman. But, it's her choice.


ANYHOW... Sorry this was sooooo long, but I've been bottling this up kinda.. I've talked to Boo about it some, but not completely. I don't want her to think that I'm trying to control her or convince her to make a decision to cut him out... Please --- any help/advice would be GREATLY appreciated. :confused:
 
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You can not control either of them... can you live with / accept the situation as is or not? If others behavior is harmful to you, you have to withdraw. Any person who wants to be with you, must take the action needed to do so.

You just don't have any control over what they choose to do.

Its a really sad situation:(
 
Run, don't walk yourself out of this situation. He's definitely not stable and I have my doubts about her state of mind as well. Until their marriage issues are fixed or she's out of that situation it doesn't seem like its a safe thing for you to be involved in.
 
Have you communicated all of this to her? If not, I'd let her read it. It's organized, thought out, and shows how/what you're thinking. If you haven't made it perfectly clear to her how it makes you feel to hide your things or know she's spending time with someone who is so disrespectful, then you need to.

If you have, then maybe you need to consider the fact that she used to LOVE this man. Hell, she probably still does. People do crazy things for love, and putting up with his bad behaviour for a bit may be the crazy thing she is willing to do to keep him in her life. You're upset that he's disrespecting you and discounting your relationship, yet you seem to have no respect at all for the love, affection, and relationship that they have built for (... I don't know how long...). Am I justifying his behaviour? No, but you're judging a man based on things he said and did during an incredibly difficult time of emotional upheaval for him. If this situation works for the two of them, then leave it be. If it doesn't work for you, explain why and let her make a decision. After she does that, you can decide whether to stay or go. That's it.
 
(It's easier for us to follow if you use nicknames instead of initials)

Old habits die hard. People who are married for a long time share huge parts of their life together. They're parenting a child together. Those aren't things to be thrown away casually. It sounds like you took their blow-out as your chance to move in and set yourself up. That might come back to bite you. Choosing to keep you is not the same as choosing to leave him.

She can only forgive him for what he's done to her, not what he's done to you. Forgiving him for what he did to you is your role, or not, as you choose.

Harboring hate and anger only hurts yourself. I can fully appreciate T's willingness to forgive him and try to continue having an amicable relationship. Holding grudges never does anyone a bit of good.

I can appreciate that having your stuff hidden out of the way doesn't meet your need for acceptance. But you know what he's like. Can you really blame her for taking steps to avoid dealing with his anger if it can be avoided with a bit of housekeeping? I don't know the time scale all this happened on, but it doesn't sound like you wasted much time taking advantage of his absence. For whatever reason, they've chosen to remain married. They might even choose to get back together and resume their full marital relationship. Respecting her autonomy means accepting that choice.

So you have choices. You can forgive him yourself and try to heal from the damage he caused you mentally. You can refuse to forgive him and continue holding on to your anger. You can stay with her and accept that putting up with his behaviour might be "the price of admission." You can choose not to put up with his behaviour and avoid any and all contact with him. You can choose to take that a step further by ending your relationship with her.

I don't disagree that there are some potential signs of abuse. However, the thing about abusive situations is the receiver has to be the one to see it for themselves, and pushing them towards a specific action is more likely to alienate them than help them. The best thing you can do is stand by her side, support her choices, and help her deal with any issues as they arise. If she's already got an abusive husband, the last thing she needs is another boyfriend telling her what to do.

It's reasonable to be upset with him. But your anger is your own, the result of your thought patterns. You can choose to be angry or you can choose to forgive. Staying angry is unlikely to help the situation. Involving her in your anger is unlikely to improve things either, and it places an unfair burden on her. She's not the one who behaved that way, she was caught in the middle of it. I would be wary of bringing it up as it would be difficult not to present it as a guilt-trip.
 
If I were you I would walk away. If and when she chooses to leave her abusive relationship, divorce and get herself daughter safe I would stay away for her benefit. This guy sounds dangerous and your presence in her life sounds like it's causing her a lot of trouble. I would never be in a situation where I had to tiptoe around and hide my things. Either we are out ad proud or there is no relationship
 
I am so sorry. This does not sound healthy. I would walk away. :(

If you decide you stay involved in someone degree perhaps these help you. An abused person sometimes goes through various stages before making a permanent break. Scroll down the stages links. There is info at the end of each stage article for friends and family of the abused person.

http://www.speakoutloud.net/contact-me/questions/

This also might help you/ her identify some of these behaviors into categories.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5674111/Tactics Clare Murphy PhD 8 March 2014.pdf

This might help explain the cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse

If she has been living with this a long time and it has been her "normal" she may not label it abusive.

Where you are getting first looks at it so it is clearly over the top to you.

You might seek counseling for yourself to help you think out your next steps because to me this goes beyond the scope of internet strangers' advice. If you decide to stay you also will need support of your own because you cannot ask your GF at this time. One kvetches out, and comforts in. She is handling one loopy dude, she does not need to have you bearing down on her also adding to her burden. Maybe she wants to attend counseling herself solo or with you.

Remember she may not be fully healthy herself. I have friends who have been in those shoes. One told me that when she was in it, she was not able to see how bad it was. It was not until she left and had time to heal that she could see how bad it had been.

Hang in there. I hope you are all safe. He does not sound stable. :(

Galagirl
 
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Can you expand on what the timeframes for all of this were/are?

It may not matter.
But it seems to me that it would effect my suggestions.
 
Thank you ALL for your helpful input! I appreciate it greatly. In all fairness to everyone involved (Thinker, Boo and myself) - there are other details to the story that are not in the OP. some good... some bad... it's just a lot to try and write in a story that would keep people's attention without making a novel. What was listed were the "key highlights" that led to where we are today.

jayt said:
can you live with / accept the situation as is or not?
That is exactly what I'm working out at the moment. I am pretty sure I can.. It's just something I have to wrap my mind around.

AlwaysGrowing said:
Have you communicated all of this to her?
I did this evening when I got back to her place from work and before she went out. We talked about it and she understands how I feel the way I feel and she also understands that I am not trying to control her or tell her what to do/how to feel. - She still wants to read this post when she gets back home.

AlwaysGrowing said:
If you have, then maybe you need to consider the fact that she used to LOVE this man. Hell, she probably still does. People do crazy things for love, and putting up with his bad behaviour for a bit may be the crazy thing she is willing to do to keep him in her life. You're upset that he's disrespecting you and discounting your relationship, yet you seem to have no respect at all for the love, affection, and relationship that they have built for (... I don't know how long...). Am I justifying his behaviour? No, but you're judging a man based on things he said and did during an incredibly difficult time of emotional upheaval for him. If this situation works for the two of them, then leave it be. If it doesn't work for you, explain why and let her make a decision. After she does that, you can decide whether to stay or go. That's it.
She does love him, you can't turn that off. I understand that very well. Especially with her personality. We are very similar in that way, but where we differ is when I'm "done wrong", I am "done". She is very compassionate and forgiving -- even of people who have done her worse than this. I do have respect for the love they have. It does make sense, though that this is not the "norm" for him. This is something traumatic in his life and he's not himself.

SchrodingersCat said:
It sounds like you took their blow-out as your chance to move in and set yourself up. That might come back to bite you. Choosing to keep you is not the same as choosing to leave him.
I don't feel that I have. Things for us have not changed much since the beginning with the exception that we recently took a trip out of state together and spent nearly a week together (this was before the "final straw" for Thinker). I don't WANT her to feel like she needs to make a choice. I just want to understand her thoughts and feelings better. Fortunately, we are pretty good at communicating with each other.


SchrodingersCat said:
She can only forgive him for what he's done to her, not what he's done to you.

Can you really blame her for taking steps to avoid dealing with his anger if it can be avoided with a bit of housekeeping?
Agreed... and no.. I see your point, perhaps that thought/feeling was/is a bit petty.

SchrodingersCat said:
it doesn't sound like you wasted much time taking advantage of his absence

However, the thing about abusive situations is the receiver has to be the one to see it for themselves, and pushing them towards a specific action is more likely to alienate them than help them. The best thing you can do is stand by her side, support her choices, and help her deal with any issues as they arise. If she's already got an abusive husband, the last thing she needs is another boyfriend telling her what to do.
I don't feel this is the case, not much has changed. We do spend a little more time together at the moment, but we grab what we can since we live an hour away from each other and are both parents with kids at home.

Agreed - She classifies it as abusive herself. (Albeit mental/emotional, not physical -- thank goodness) I want to stand by her side and support whatever choices she makes in life, but the protector in me feels strongly that she deserves better. But, ultimately, it is her choice.

SchrodingersCat said:
Involving her in your anger is unlikely to improve things either, and it places an unfair burden on her. She's not the one who behaved that way, she was caught in the middle of it. I would be wary of bringing it up as it would be difficult not to present it as a guilt-trip.
This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want her to feel bad about it, but the feelings I have are inadvertantly carried over in my demeanor from time to time when something triggers them. She is extremely intuitive and picks up on these quickly. So, when she asks what is wrong, it's not an option to say, "nothing" -- she knows better.

Inyourendo said:
If and when she chooses to leave her abusive relationship, divorce and get herself daughter safe
I have to state that only the past 6 weeks or so have been mentally/emotionally abusive and her daughter is always physically safe (I don't think he'd ever intentionally hurt her, although he's drug her into the middle of the "adult" problems of their marriage and her polyamory)

GalaGirl said:
If she has been living with this a long time and it has been her "normal" she may not label it abusive. Where you are getting first looks at it so it is clearly over the top to you.

You might seek counseling for yourself to help you think out your next steps because to me this goes beyond the scope of internet strangers' advice. If you decide to stay you also will need support of your own because you cannot ask your GF at this time. One kvetches out, and comforts in. She is handling one loopy dude, she does not need to have you bearing down on her also.
GalaGirl -- this site would be completely different without you (and not in a good way... haha) - She has been in mentally abusive relationships previously and has vowed never to let that happen again, but as her nature is to forgive, she has forgiven those men and has even continued friendships with them. As far as this relationship is concerned, it's only been about 6 weeks of "crazy" stuff.

I mentioned to her the other day about possibly her and I going to couples counseling as a preventative measure. While I think overall we are in a good place, I think that people tend to go to counseling as a reactive measure instead of a proactive measure. She's on board with the counseling idea. There are a couple of poly-friendly counselors in our area, so I am checking into that. I hadn't really considered going to a counselor individually for myself, but that may not be a bad idea either.

You make a good point. I don't want to burden her with my feelings because I don't want to come off as being bossy/manipulative/controlling, etc. But, I do still need to be able to communicate with her about my feelings. I worry that (and this is why it is hard to talk about it with her) if I tell her how I feel but maybe use the wrong words it could really push her into a bad place emotionally. I want to make sure that when I do communicate with her that she knows that where I am coming from is ALWAYS a place of love and supprot and not a place of control or demand. Having someone I could talk to professionally may allow me to figure out exactly how to phrase things (or maybe counseling as a couple would help that as well)

I even suggested (but I don't know if it is even possible) that somehow, someway, we could all use the same counselor for some therapy so that the therapist has a "complete picture" of the entire situation. I thought it would be nice for say... Boo and I to go on Monday and maybe Thinker and Boo go on Wednesday... But, I think there are ethics issues with professional counselors that would prevent that and Thinker is not in a place where he even would want to be in the same room as I am (so all at 1 time is wayyy out of the question).

Anyhow --- thank you all! I truly appreciate all of the feedback, even if it is stuff that is hard to hear. I appreciate this forum to have a place to come and use you guys as a sounding board and being able to have people chime in and offer a different way of looking at things than I have. You all are great people and I love being here!
 
I am glad my post was helpful to you and glad to hear you are looking at counseling.

You do need to be able to talk to her about your POV. But yes, get help in counseling to help you from the words.

When I was supporting the last friend, we both read the "stages" stuff. I would ask her what number she was on today and I would respond with the range of stuff suggested in the "friends and family" tips for that number. She would jiggle up and down but slowly moving toward leaving and that daily check in a made it possible for me to express my concern at the right "volume." I also had other people for my own support. It is scary and stressful... Please get your support in place.

My only other comment is be careful.

This is something traumatic in his life and he's not himself.

Do not excuse bad behavior and be leery of minimizing what you have on your hands.

We cannot help the things that happen to us in life. We can help how we respond to it and how we chose to behave.

He chooses to participate in an open marriage as poly sexual while wife is polyamorous. What is so traumatic or surprising she finds a partner to love? When you choose to participate in this that is within the bucket of possibilities.

An adult flinging himself onto the floor is waaaaay over the top. So is jumping out of car. So is kidnapping the child. Taking child without her knowledge or consent is kidnapping. This is not what I would call "not himself" like he is in a bad mood. Be careful. Are these things documented? Does she need to apply for involuntary commitment for him to get a hospital check up? Get an injunction? Find your local resources. They would know better what to do.

Abuse is abuse, they all count as damaging. Not just physical abuse "counts." . A kid watching growing up with this as their normal becomes easy prey for abuse in their own relationships later ... Or worse... The abusers.

The cycle over time escalates too. Encourage her to keep a diary, emails, whatever to document the incidents. Share her story with other people. Silence is not helpful.

http://en.copian.ca/library/research/domestic/12.htm

This is serious business. He does not sound stable to me. If he gets it into his head that "if I cannot have her then nobody can!" Then what? The last thing you two need is for him to get a gun. :(

The leaving time is a dangerous time. She might choose to stay til she can better leave SAFELY. You can look up domestic violence sites as well as safety plans. Get educated on what to expect here with counselor or local women's shelter or other local resources. They might have classes.

Please tell your GF you are concerned and not to take her personal safety lightly or minimize it. You are not under normal conditions right now.

It is good to forgive, to be able to move on and cultivate inner peace. But one does not have to keep associating with past abusers. If your gf has this habit, def some counseling. Because her people become your people... And you both need to be safe and not worry some past ghost of hers is going to come after YOU and hurt her by hurting you. :(

I am not trying to alarm you but urging you to keep it real over there.

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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Run..

Why would any sane person invite this kind of drama in their life
 
It is one thing to invite drama in your life...I have for very personal reasons...but please don't discount the level of psychosis displayed.

My friend DID have a woman pull a gun on her once. In a public building. Because of a poly situation.

So, don't think that's a crazy suggestion, please!
 
I am NOT NOT NOT sayin his behavior is acceptable and I agree with GG's advice.
But-I would add, as this isn't a long term "normal" behavior for him AND
it is sudden onset AND
the age AND
the stress factor

He needs to see a medical doctor not just a counselor.
It coukd be a combination of things and the emotional distress being just the straw that broke the camels back.
The things you describe could be "bs temper tantrum"
However; for a person that age whose never behaved that way prior they could also be signs of interactions of medications, brain tumors, mini seizures and a host of other medical situations that woukdnt necessarily show up so siluddenly barring the addition of some sort of stressor.

I woukdnt "write off" your relationship with her or hers with him before that is all checked out.
 
So, these are my thoughts/concerns/questions:
1. He still has her ear on a daily basis to "plant seeds" of his contempt for me. (Boo says she doesn't allow him to speak ill of me and I believe it... But that doesn't make me feel better.)
Based on the behaviors you expressed, I would personally be very concerned with this arrangement. I was in the exact same situation with Fancie. She was married, he was okay with us when it was just sexual, he wanted to end when it became love, he was extremely emotionally and verbally abusive during the following months leading to their eventual divorce. He was awful, but one difference is that he did NOT exhibit those manic behaviors.

If what you described is something that has happened before or often, I would be highly concerned. I would already be absolutely uncomfortable with Fancie's ex being in our lives and having to have my things hidden, and allowing him access to be manipulative in who knows what way. But, what makes your situation even scarier in my mind is that he has exhibited manic behaviors as a response to these relationship triggers. I am bipolar, and I can say that manic can very easily equal dangerous and certainly can equal manipulative. Before I was officially diagnosed and medicated, I was awful and have no idea how Fancie and Pickle stayed with me during that time.

Fancie had me on one end going crazy and her ex on the other tormenting her about the relationship changes. She is an extremely patient and compassionate person.

If at all possible, I would discuss finding Thinker some help.


2. If their marriage is over, why do they continue to be around each other daily?

If he's serious about going to counseling, I think that could be a good idea, but if I were in your shoes, I would like that to be the majority of their interaction. I would like to see them doing this so that when they do interact it can be in a friendly and safe way. They have a child together, so that makes it even more important.

As far as taking care of all of her needs, it could be very tempting to have someone take care of you in that way. I do not know you or them, but from what you said happened, it feels like a bid for control to me. This man has taken care of Boo and their child up until this point. That would be hard to give up when offered what he has offered. For him, I'm sure having control as he provides the money is better than simply having to pay child support and alimony through the court system where he does not have a position of power.
He could also be afraid to move on and be seeking the safety of what he knows despite wanting to be out of a marriage that was not meeting his emotional needs (for him that meant that he was her only love) - this is of course just a shot in the dark.

She sounds inclined to genuinely want him to be happy.


3. Why/How can she forgive him for putting her through what he didn't her, her daughter or for treating me the way he did?

I would save for the same reasons I guessed in the question above.

4. They're staying "legally married" .... which would prevent us from ever taking that step if we wanted to in the future.
And therefore, I personally, would want to see that end. If it were me, I would not absolutely get involved in influencing her with ANY of this (what I am sharing is more of my opinions of how I'd like to see things happen if it were me). Again, if it were me, I would let things play out a while, and then if there were still things that bothered me or hadn't been solved, I would express my feelings... that I want to be the one married to her, that I want that commitment, that I didn't think it was fair for someone who didn't want that with her was taking that option from me. Again... I have to reiterate that these are just my own, very colored opinions and feelings.

5. Why do I feel like I am still playing "second fiddle" to him? I mean, he knows I'm there... why hide my stuff in the closet so he doesn't see it? Why walk on eggshells? I feel like she's hiding our relationship just so she can keep hi from "dealing" with it.

I think I talked about quite a bit of this above, but at this point you are probably playing 'second fiddle' to him because she is still processing major life changes and decisions. This transition for us involved a lot of pain on everyone's part. I worked very hard the entire time to never influence her choices or decisions involving how she would proceed, and it was excruciating. It took months for all of the pieces to fall, so it might be that you are just in for a period of time where a lot is changing and happening, and a lot feels painful and unfair. Hopefully things will fall out happily for you as it did for me, but I know that I spend the entire transition petrified that he would stay involved, they would stay married, she would dismiss me, etc. This was mostly due to my own fear, more than to things she said and did. The only actual thing that she did to give me a reason to think it wasn't going to get better for us was to break it off with me when he initially asked (but like you, she and I realized very quickly that wasn't an option... and then the months of awful indecision and the unknown began.

It does sound like she isn't quite ready to deal with a big change, especially when he's offering to give her a small change (despite the fact that it keeps him in control). I would give her space, time, and encouragement to seek happiness and take care of her emotional needs first and foremost. I would also express my own needs and feelings about my things being hidden, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking that you not be swept under the rug when he comes over - avoiding influencing her choices is good right now, but when it comes to it hurting you, that isn't okay.


6. How can I convey this all to her.... all my thoughts on the situation... without sounding like I'm telling her WHAT to do. She's a grown woman. I'm not JEALOUS -- I've processed that much. I am upset with him. I dislike the person he is. I feel he's been horrible towards my girlfriend. He doesn't deserve to spend time with such an amazing woman. But, it's her choice.


Again, I think I touched on this above, but a few other thoughts. I would personally avoid sharing my thoughts about him or what I want her to do at this point. She likely needs time.

But, you need to convey your needs and feelings to her in a fair and non-pushy way. What we had to do when things got highly emotional in the height of the relationship changes was to have meetings. We had them as often as needed, but at least once a week. We had a procedure and rules to keep them a safe place to express our needs and feelings (I have the list of rules somewhere if you are interested). We no longer have meetings very often, but we do have them still - now they are just more household business and bill type meetings. :) One of the rules that I think are worth noting now is that nobody is allowed to leave the meeting until all parties have felt like their concerns and issues have been heard and adequately addressed. This meant that we had some 3-4 hour meetings when things were really bad.

For you, if she intends to pursue the course of him being involved, he really needs to take part in meetings like this. Or, you could be part of the counseling if you all are not comfortable having a meeting without a neutral party. If it is just a need between she and you, I would ask her to have regular meetings (again, or counseling) in order to work through both of your needs.




If you can stand it, and you can bring them in on it, I think it would be most beneficial to have all of you able to discuss these things. Whether they stay married or not, boundaries have to be established since he will always be there because they have a child.
 
AJoy,

Thanks for the insight. One thing that is important to note is that they don't have a child together. The child is Boo's biological child and Thinker's bonus (step) daughter.

I would absolutely love if things were different and we could all get along. As stressful as it is for me, I know it is 10 fold as stressful on Boo and she doesn't need that kind of stress level.

This week is going to be kind of a break for all of us, which may be a good thing. Boo has a family friend in another state that is in an extremely critical health condition. Thinker stayed behind to stay with Boo's daughter and I couldn't go with her because of work commitments. So, with her being gone this week and neither myself nor thinker being around her, maybe it will give some time for things to cool off and for calmer heads to prevail.

I do feel horrible about not being able to be there to support her in this troubling time... But maybe it is not a bad thing to step back for a couple days. (Although it feels terrible to not be with her)
 
The most interesting thought here is what LovingRadiance said about this maybe being more of a medical problem (with Thinker) than a psychological problem. The brain and body have a delicate chemical balance with each other and it doesn't take much to throw that balance off. Given the seemingly sudden change in Thinker's demeanor the physical possibilities come to mind before the psychological possibilities.

Since Boo is in such a difficult spot I would try to trust her judgment and see if this two-month freak-out can't by some means be turned around. There's not much you can do about it directly but you can express support towards Boo (and offer suggestions if she asks). Don't ask her to dispose of her marriage; a marriage isn't something one should give up on easily. Let her try to save it. Remember that in polyamory, multiple romances can exist but only one of those romances can be allowed to be a legal marriage. There's nothing anyone can do about that. I say give Thinker some time and opportunities to pull himself together. Hopefully Boo (and/or a counselor) can convince him to get the help he needs.

I don't see a problem with telling Boo that you are concerned, but like you said be careful that you aren't trying to maneuver her into a spot where she'll do what you'd choose if you were her. Let her be herself and make choices that are in concert with who she is. That's the woman you fell in love with, after all. You didn't fall in love with someone who was a clone of yourself. If things get too far out of control with Thinker, she'll be able to make that call.

Good luck working it all out,
Kevin T.
 
communication with all parties...

Look...I am new to his Poly site, but have years of experience with multi-partner relationships and all I can say is, communication is key! It sounds like you and Thinker have not sat down and openly discussed his feelings. Being that he is very cerebral, as you origjnally described him, it seems that he needs to get his feelings about you out on the table. If I were him and felt that my relationship was threatened, and yet nobody sat down with me to discuss it- I would be rightfully upset. I need to have openness and honesty in a healthy Poly relationship or it just isn't going to work. When my husband goes out with the woman on our lives, he shows me text messages, discusses their conversations and explicitly explains their sensual encounters. I appreciate his honesty and it makes me feel more comfortable. I know everyone is not the same, but it helps me know he is not leaving our family unit.
 
6. How can I convey this all to her.... all my thoughts on the situation... without sounding like I'm telling her WHAT to do. She's a grown woman. I'm not JEALOUS -- I've processed that much. I am upset with him. I dislike the person he is. I feel he's been horrible towards my girlfriend. He doesn't deserve to spend time with such an amazing woman. But, it's her choice.[/I]

She is giving him power because she seems to think that's what is best for her. Regardless of your intention to not tell her what to do, I personally recommend against getting involved in this dangerous situation. I call it "dangerous" hesitantly, as most people are excited to call their personal situation "abusive" and the like... but her husband has overtly displayed behaviors which would make any sane person step WAY.... WAY WAY BACK. I'm no doctor, but I do have a fully functional brain, and this gentleman has pretty clearly had some sort of psychotic break and needs to seek medical attention immediately before he does something that makes the news.

If this reality doesn't make HER step back, that's her decision.
If this reality doesn't make YOU step back, that's your decision.

Personally I think you need to step away for a moment and look at this situation with a rational mind, but only regarding YOUR decisions... not HERS. Are you comfortable continuing to involve yourself in an arrangement which she continues to enable?
 
Marcus and othrrs have hit the nail on the head.

I know it's going to be impossible for you to stop your relationship with her, so I wont even advise that. It's unrealistic for anyone to expect you to do that, despite it being (in a lot of people's perspective) the "best" thing to do.

I will say this though. No matter how much youre doing it for the right reasons, the root of the issue is you want her to do something. At most all you can do is express an opinion and step back. Anything else is coercive.

You love her and are wiling to weather the drama because of that love? That's on you. If you think about it...that'sthe same thing she's doing for him.

[Legal note: if Thought is a custodial parent, legally he can take the child pretty much anywhere without notification and it would still be legal. Still a crapoy thing to do.]
 
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