Cheating vs. Polyamory: Merged Threads, General Discussion

It's difficult for some STIs to live in a vaginal cuff as they do their survival and damage is mostly done to the cervix, uterus, fallopian tubes such as PID, Chlamydia and other infections and bacteria like that. My risk for those types of problems are lower than a person who does have a cervix, uterus and tubes. I have a vaginal cuff with no area for some of those things to latch onto and do their damage. Does this make me invincible, not in the least.

This is statistical mathematical risk taking. Some things cause the numbers to rise against them or work in their favor. Let's not derail an entire topic on STIs. But, I see the point you are trying to make. I use condoms and I get tested like I should if i am going to be in a non-mono situation.

But for someone else who carries the risk of getting pregnant by a married man (even with condom use) and other issues that could be far more damaging to take that sort of risk, well, that woman also has more to consider than I do. That was simply the point I was trying to make. Weighing heavily the options and which risks are worth it.

Also, as mentioned earlier. I wouldn't dream of cheating on my spouse, not the one I have. He is quite open, honest and communicative. I am treated well. He would admit to feeling the same way. So it's not something I worry myself about.

And as for counseling that others should do, sure, that's ideal too. I wouldn't be afraid of talking to a counselor but I know there are people like my Dad who will not approve of my mom seeing a counselor or them seeing one together. It is against all of his beliefs he was raised with to keep problems under the rug. It's also against the type of religious belief he has that God will provide you with the answers and if he doesn't then he will grant you the "grace" to get through it. My mom is seeing a therapist without his knowledge just to deal with her issues because she knows she needs to do it. I will be discreet about that information between my parents also. So there are spouses that wouldn't dream of going to share their problems with a 3rd person. And the problems will just continue to exist. If i happen to choose to be with a person who is with someone who refuses to get help or even acknowledge their pre-existing issues, that is my business. If i fall out of respect with some people for knowing this, so be it.

But I know there are a handful that are not burdened constantly with the feelings of others the same way that you might be compelled to do so. Maybe our conscience is tuned a little differently. Where as something like not putting your basket in the receptacle in the parking lot at the store would be grounds for me to examine a person because maybe they will be cutting a lot of corners in our relationship when no one is looking. Right? The truth is we all have something we won't tolerate or stand for at all. I happen to not be on the same page as some of you about it.

And as for the wife of the guy I was talking to who wanted to pair up with me and my husband or me at the very least with her alone or with her and her husband, well she would not consider my talking to her husband about sexual fantasies on their facebook to have been cheating. It was a red flag for her to bring up with her husband since he was living on the couch at that point due to existing circumstances. He was promptly allowed back in their bed after a long talk about both of their feelings about where their marriage was going. I didn't set out to do that. It managed to work out that way. I stepped out of the picture once I saw their motivation to work things out. I don't need her husband in my life to be happy. But we connected on a level that would be considered cheating to some sure.
 
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As a general rule I wont enter into a relationship with someone who is actively cheating.

That being said; for a brief period a few years ago I was involved with a long time friend who was cheating on their long-term significant other. (also a long time friend of mine)

Tragically her long term partner had become a drug addled waste of air that was half a step away from outright psychotic lunacy and as a result was an ongoing drain on her emotionally and spiritually (as well and financially.)

One of the major issues he had developed was a major phobia of physical contact, especially any kind of contact of an intimate nature.

As a result, she had become starved for even a small measure of touch.
This is what really made the relationship unbearable for her.

Her significant other had long ago stopped being a life-partner and had become something more akin to a parasitic man-child that she had to look after. Their relationship had become essentially loveless, and toxic for her.
She still loved the guy to death though and couldn't bring herself to do much more than look after him and stay with him out of habit no matter how much of a toll it was taking on her.

Thing between us kind of just fell into place. At first she needed to cuddle and just be able to verbally vent to someone that could listen and that wasn't convinced bugs were crawling over the walls in the dark. Things quickly escalated into sex, I think in hindsight; as mostly a method for her to feel some physical validation and release. There wasn't much romance per-say. Intimacy yes, but not much romance.

She was in a one sided relationship and was lonely to death. I was a convenient friend that could provide some benefits under the guise of discretion.

After a while things had to come to an end, we were both beginning to feel very guilty about our behaviour, and she really had to begin to move her life forward and what we had going on was proving to be too much of an exercise in escaping from reality.

Really that was that. We went back to being six-pack buddies again without the fucking and cuddling, She had decided to begin the process of separating from him and taking the steps to move him into a long-term care situation and moving on.

Kind of lost touch with her unfortunately, last I knew she had hooked up with someone else, ended up following a job opportunity and moved to another city.


Was it cheating? yes.

we were both lying by omission about what exactly we were doing, at least to her partner (mine were aware).

Was it for a positive or healthy cause or reason?

I'd like to think so.

Does that justify everything that went on?

Maybe. I'm not entirely sure.
 
For me it is. I acknowledge the lots of gray in this area and that an ethical cheating situation is possible. But it's not a place I would go knowingly. And if it was unknowingly I would be seriously pissed off.
 
After some research on the traditional views of poly, I am not sure what the future holds for me but it's really hard to stay in one mindset when you are filling your head with knowledge about a particular subject. I feel like a hybrid to a degree and I believe I've been in the swinging arena more times than I've been in the poly arena but I have indeed been gaining some ground in t hat area as well. I like both but ultimately I would prefer to have full disclosure for all parties involved and I have no doubt we can find that. I suppose due to the exploration period we are in, we have been apt to believe that you can somehow avoid excluding potentials based on their disclosure status. In the end I am not sure if this is something we could continue to do under the same belief that we are headed in the right direction towards ultimate polyamorousness with someone long term. I believe it would prevent us from getting what we eventually want.

Note that the community here has helped me gain more knowledge on what poly can mean to different people and I've had to open up my mind to more possibilities and at the same time close my mind to possibilities. It's pretty emotional and exhausting but I know there are some answers to my questions. I just need to lurk through old posts and do some searches on the internet and read some blogs.

My husband and I are to the point where we are having to come to the crossroads about what "we" want. Not just what I want or he wants. We can't say "You are going to California and I am going to New York, let's go together!" it makes no sense not to be on the same page. Be patient with me as I work through these questions of traditional poly ethical behavior and determine if I'm even in the right community for what I am ultimately trying to accomplish.
 
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I'm just curious where others stand on this topic? Would this be a deal breaker for you when determining if you get involved with someone or not?

If they'll cheat on others, they'll eventually cheat on you. The corollary there is, if you accept them cheating on others, or on you,...then don't call me at 2 in the morning with a tale of woe about all that when it snakes around and fangs your glutes.

I prefer my relationships like whiskey: straight up, not on the rocks, and of the highest quality I can afford. Life is already too complicated and full of surprises. In my view, cheating is lying, and lying is the way people dynamite short cuts through the mountainous terrain of another person's personality/reality. It's a sort of selfishness that can be exciting...but not very sustaining.

IME, at the end of the day, micro-honesty is an even riskier and more exciting journey than lying.
 
I do think that suffering is built into strict monogamy, though, because it's the natural desire of humans to want to make intimate connections with people around them. When that desire arises, strict monogamy reduces your choices to betraying your partner by acting on it, or betraying yourself by suppressing the desire.

This assumes that everyone has a desire pattern such as--apparently--yours is.

I've known many people--and was one for 15 years--who never looked at another person besides their partner and was as happy with that as I was at other times when I had intimate connections with other people.

I will note however that a lot of monogamous people DO have "intimate connections" of various sorts. They just may not look like sex.

Then again, I detest generalizations such as "it's the natural desire of humans to want Thing X." Case in point: I know a lot of introverts who are absolutely at their happiest and most creative when they don't have to deal with other people at all.
 
I acknowledge the lots of gray in this area and that an ethical cheating situation is possible.
I just can not for the life of me imagine a situation where the term "ethical cheating" could be used. I hear that and it sounds like "legally illegal". none of the examples I have read in this or any other thread could even remotely be called "ethical" in my books.

But those are my ethics... YMMV, of course.
 
Not at all. Even when we were mono (in practice) he knew there was no ownership and continues to know. I belong to me. He belongs to him. It has always been that way and will continue to be that way.

I hate overblown statements like that. Like you gotta be kidding me.
 
I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.
 
I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.

I am not sure if you have ever experienced chronic and/or severe illness as described. I am sure that during my own long haul, in those horrible days before we knew what was going on and family members were dying on me (stress upon stress!), I would damn well have preferred to hear him say, "Honey, it's not enough. I need a fuckbuddy." At which point I would have told him, "Choose well, darling," and helped him work out time to get his needs fulfilled. Dyads with nobody extra have even more time in their schedules to accomplish this, and when one is, say, sedated and undergoing treatment, one's partner does not need to sit there and watch. So really, if this is going to be an issue should one partner ever become that seriously ill, maybe it should be discussed while everyone's healthy.

It is NOT better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission in this case. Especially with sharp or blunt objects within easy reach.
 
I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.
A friend of mine made me came to this conclusion. His wife has an illness that makes it impossible for her to not only hike like they used to and do other physical activities together (sex), but unable to discuss complicated emotions and theories such as poly. He tried. She became distraught and confused and could not respond. I got him to do at least tell her what he is missing in his life and bring up poly, but it didn't work out.

He cheated on her for sex and got caught up, both times, in each woman's break up of their marriage. It was hurtful and sad for him. I tried to introduce him to the poly community to see if someone would accept his situation, but no one is interested. Very sad. I suggested he at least pick more wisely who he cheats with. *cringe. Can't believe that came out of my mouth! A DADT is what he and I decided he should call it, just to make him feel better :(
 
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I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.

Dan's also known for saying racist, transphobic crap and blaming rape victims.

He's not precisely a fountain of wisdom.

If your partner has cancer, skip the Savage Love column and try a support group. It's nothing new.

ETA: Tonberry, I wasn't snipping at you; I just REALLY don't like Dan's "consider others' feelings" when he's trying to be "edgy" by complaining about how bigoted black people are, how trans people need to wait until a kid is at a "stable" period to transition (Isn't college more of a transition than high school? When's it okay to transition, Danno?), and that rape victims would just have sex whenever to satisfy partners. I like Dan, but he needs to decide whether or not he's going to be the Queen of Shock or an advice columnist.

But your advice has its merits. Far more than Dan's, and I never meant to imply otherwise. Sorry.
 
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I just can not for the life of me imagine a situation where the term "ethical cheating" could be used. I hear that and it sounds like "legally illegal". none of the examples I have read in this or any other thread could even remotely be called "ethical" in my books.

It's not a great term and I find using it makes me uncomfortable. But I do believe there are some situations where it applies. Often they are like the ones listed in this thread where physical or mental illness is involved. I once chatted on OKC with a gentleman whose wife had had a stroke. She was incapable of sex and probably was not capable of consenting to a DADT, an open relationship or anything else intellectually complicated. And they are relatively young - early 40s or so. So cheating is his only choice if he wanted any sexual interactions at all for the next 20, 30, or 40 years. I did not go there with him because I wasn't attracted and I don't give pity fucks. (Horrible things, pity fucks IMO.) Still I could not condemn him.
 
The case has been put forward in this thread of the poor guy whose wife is an evil bitch, makes him miserable, and is going to make his life even worse and take his children away from him if he divorces, etc and so forth. And he's just trying to find a little happiness in life. And he can't tell her he's sleeping with someone else because she'd react so badly, but she's so horrible and awful she really drove him to it.

I'm on an infidelity forum and I think I can safely say that close to 100% of cheating men and women paint this picture of their spouses. Usually the truth is that there's a spouse at home who is none of the things being portrayed, who thinks they have a wonderful marriage, or alternatively, is desperately doing anything they can think of to make the spouse happy and the marriage better again, totally clueless as to what's really going on.

I have a great deal of respect for the (poly, married) man I'm currently seeing in that he knew roughly what was going on in my marriage for probably two years--my ex-husband lying to me about money and other women and backstabbing and betraying and badmouthing me; he knew when I filed; he knew during the whole 8 months of the divorce process that it was happening. (We didn't talk about it a lot, I only mentioned the overall picture at work.)

He knew and he still said and did nothing until three months after the divorce was final--he didn't so much as flirt with me or hint in any way that he'd like to go out with me--because he had some respect for me, for not wanting to complicate the situation for me, not asking me or tempting me to lie; I believe he had respect for the institution of marriage even if he and his wife have a different view of it than most of socierty; he had respect for my children who would only be hurt more by me getting involved with someone else while still married.

I have a great deal of respect for him that he stood back and didn't get involved until I was 100% single and available, till nobody could claim I cheated, till my children could never wonder if I was the one who broke the marriage.

In truth, I was more the one in the difficult position, knowing my husband was lying about money and women, and twisting stories till people who had never met me believed horrible (untrue) things about me; I was the one looking at trying to raise a bunch of kids on my part time income. And like millions of others in that situation, I didn't justify cheating. I filed for divorce and did everything above board and honestly.
 
close to 100%...Usually

So, by your own words it's possible for there to be exceptions, and for the situation to actually be as presented. Here's the thing- each of us can only make decisions based on how much we trust another person, how well we feel we know them, and how confident we are in the situation. In the case I posted about to which you're referring, I had met her, talked to her, and even tried to be friends with her when I first became friends with him, so I had a decent level of confidence in the situation, having seen some of it first-hand. If I hadn't had that knowledge and experience, maybe my choices would have been different. I know that if I didn't feel like I knew a person well and trusted them, I wouldn't be having any kind of FWB or romantic relationship with them anyway.

I'm trying to decide if using an infidelity forum to make generalizations about cheaters makes sense or not. On one hand it makes total sense- get the information from the source, right? But on the other hand it seems like the results could be greatly skewed because it's the furthest thing from a random, unbiased cross-section. I don't feel conclusions about poly based on this forum, for instance, would work either (with the possible exceptions of "it can work" and "honest communication is a must").

On a different note, I think statements like, "once a cheater, always a cheater" and "if he'll cheat on them, he'll cheat on you" are so disrespectful to people who have cheated in the past but worked on their shit and came to a place where they didn't feel like they had to or needed to anymore. If those statements are true, what's the point of anyone trying to work on themselves or their relationships? However you acted, whatever decisions or choices you made 5, 10, 20 years ago are what you're going to do in the future anyway by that logic, right? So why bother?
 
It's not a great term and I find using it makes me uncomfortable. But I do believe there are some situations where it applies. Often they are like the ones listed in this thread where physical or mental illness is involved. I once chatted on OKC with a gentleman whose wife had had a stroke. She was incapable of sex and probably was not capable of consenting to a DADT, an open relationship or anything else intellectually complicated. And they are relatively young - early 40s or so. So cheating is his only choice if he wanted any sexual interactions at all for the next 20, 30, or 40 years. I did not go there with him because I wasn't attracted and I don't give pity fucks. (Horrible things, pity fucks IMO.) Still I could not condemn him.
Right, because having sex is more important than any promise you make, right? :confused:

Sorry, don't buy it.

Most of these people made a solemn vow along the lines of "to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; and I promise to be faithful to you until death parts us."

So those promises suddenly stop meaning anything when sickness comes along? How does THAT work?

Sorry, ethics to me means keeping the promises you made, and what you are describing is most definitely NOT keeping them. You can't single-handedly abandon those promises for whatever reason and then claim to be ethical. The sickness of a partner is almost the worst, least-ethical reason I can think of.
 
Not at all. Even when we were mono (in practice) he knew there was no ownership and continues to know. I belong to me. He belongs to him. It has always been that way and will continue to be that way.

I hate overblown statements like that. Like you gotta be kidding me.

Thats how I see it as well. in the forum this was originally brought up on there was a huge debate over this topic.
 
It's funny how people presume cheating can only take place without the cheater's SO's knowledge.

What if a sanctioned, blessed upon poly arrangement with limits is taken beyond those limits by one of the parties involved? Say there's a "no overnights" rule and, tada, the sun rises and one of the primary partners isn't home yet? Or if the SO sees their partner going too deep into NRE (or beyond) with a new person?

The spectrum for cheating is pretty broad. I have one guy friend that I've never even so much as kissed and hanging out with him as a pal during my engaged days and his single days sure as heck felt a lot like cheating.

Having been on both sides of the equation, I'll likely steer clear of such a situation but that's just personal preference.
 
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