Sharing Details of Relationships/Sex

I think treating others the way you want to be treated works in terms of the broader things like respect and honesty. If you want people to be honest with you and respect you and listen to you, then you should do those things to/for them.

When it comes to specifics, I think treating them the way you want to be treated can be problematic. I know that it's taken me a while to realize that I need to treat my husband very differently than I want him to treat me with regards to specific items because he doesn't feel the same way I do about those things. For a long time I thought I was being respectful and thoughtful because I was treating him the same way I wanted him to treat me-- and in the end it was causing problems because he does not see things the same way as me, and I was in fact making things worse. :-/

Now we just have to talk it out... I have to actually ask him what he'd like in certain situations and though sometimes it mystifies me because it's so completely opposite of what I'd do, I'm taking his word that he knows himself better than I do (at least at that particular moment).
 
When it comes to specifics, I think treating them the way you want to be treated can be problematic. I know that it's taken me a while to realize that I need to treat my husband very differently than I want him to treat me with regards to specific items because he doesn't feel the same way I do about those things. For a long time I thought I was being respectful and thoughtful because I was treating him the same way I wanted him to treat me-- and in the end it was causing problems because he does not see things the same way as me, and I was in fact making things worse. :-/

Yes, that's what I was referring to. I don't doubt that Neon is a smart person, but I think giving that advice can be problematic as some people will just follow it without thinking instead of communicating and figuring out what their partners want.
I think advice such as "treat others you want to be treated" just contribute to people thinking everyone works the same and it's already a too common misconception, so point out that people don't all work the same way is always good to do.
That's why I'm careful to say, communicate, figure out how people want to be treated, and treat them that way. Sure, it's more complicated than treating them the way you'd want to be treated, there are more steps and more effort required, but that's usually a better rule of thumb as far as I'm concerned.
 
I think giving that advice can be problematic as some people will just follow it without thinking instead of communicating and figuring out what their partners want.
I think you're really onto something here. So many people take a manipulative attitude toward interacting with others. They think they have to come up with a secret recipe for how to act and then follow that program and if it doesn't work they have to go back, change the program, and start again. Why are people afraid of communicating and negotiating their actions as they're happening? I think it may be because many people have been abused/bullied in a way that makes them feel like they have to remain closed or they will be dominated. It's sad because they can end up dominating others by remaining so closed.
 
Um, no. It doesn't. It's rather silly to think that it does.

Why? I don't get what's silly about it. If I want people to make chocolate cake for me, I make chocolate cake for everyone. If I want people to hug me, I hug everyone. If I want people not to share naked pictures of me, I share naked pictures of nobody. I'm a single person, if I need to treat everyone the way I want to be treated, well there is only one way I want to be treated.
That's why I think it should be dependent on the other person and not on yourself.
 
No, it means, if I want to feel respected and heard, and for my wishes to be considered, I respect and listen to others and consider their wishes. It doesn't mean I treat everyone the same because everyone is different but if I tune into them and listen to them, treating them the way I want to be treated, then I relate accordingly.

It is adjustable to the people I'm relating to. It doesn't necessarily have to do with specific tasks. Let's say, for example, someone wants me to do something sexually that for me would feel degrading. I'm not into degradation or humiliation at all. So, if I did it, I would be giving them what they want, but it would be something I couldn't bear to have done to me. However, if I listen and respect them, in the way I want to be listened to and respected, and saw that this fulfilled them in a way that something else would fulfill me, I might be comfortable with that. I would consider their wishes just as I would want my wishes considered. I wouldn't have to go along with it or do it if I was totally against it or it made me uncomfortable, but I would communicate honestly with that person, just as I would want honest communication. THAT is treating someone the way I want to be treated.
 
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I understand your explanation, but it seems to me, you're treating them the way THEY want to be treated, not you. Unless the only thing that sentence means is "respect people, don't be a jerk", but then just saying that is faster. Or "try to put yourself in people's shoes" but that goes with acting depending on what THEY would want, not you.

Although, "what want if I was in this situation" is still the wrong question to ask yourself. "What do they want, in this situation", is the right question, and the only way to know is ask them.

I understand the principle, but hearing that sentence over and over, I'm afraid it contributes to people's idea that people want the same things and work the same way. Like, someone thinks something isn't cheating, they do it, and to their partner it was cheating. If they didn't think of it in terms of what they'd want, or what they'd be fine with, and instead asked their partner to establish rules, they could avoid things like that.

I think you need to consider each new person like someone who requires a new manual. There really isn't much, if anything, that's the same from one person to the next. Every time you meet someone you need to relearn to interact socially, and they might be completely different from anyone else you've interacted with. So of course you start from a few things you learned from past experiences, but only to check how the new person works.
So I think a sentence like that, focused on yourself rather than other people, can just ingrain that message even more. People aren't consciously deciding not to talk to their spouse about what's okay or not. They just don't imagine people might not all have the same boundaries. And really, I have yet to have two partners who had the same ones.

If "treat others the way you'd want to be treated" is supposed to be code for "respect people and communicate", I'd rather say "respect people and communicate". Otherwise, it seems either too vague to really mean anything, or specific and literal but completely untrue.
 
It's looking more and more to me like we all agree on the concept, but the phrase "treat others like you wish to be treated" is being interpreted differently by everybody.

Some of us are seeing that as "if you would like massages, then you should offer massages to others". Which in my case doesn't work because hubs doesn't like massages, but I do. So he won't accept my massages and to get one I need to ask.

And some of us are seeing it as a broader sense of treat others with respect and honesty like you wish to be treated. Which I'm thinking we all agree with.


So instead of arguing semantics of a phrase that can be interpreted either way, how about we talk about what we seem to be agreeing on:

Act in good faith, with good intentions, honesty, respect and love, in order to receive same back. Communicate with your partner(s) about what they want and need, so that you know how to treat them specifically in the manner they wish to be treated, even though that may be completely opposite of how you wish to be treated. (And respect the differences.)
 
If "treat others the way you'd want to be treated" is supposed to be code for "respect people and communicate", I'd rather say "respect people and communicate". Otherwise, it seems either too vague to really mean anything, or specific and literal but completely untrue.
Well, it's more than just that, really.
It's looking more and more to me like we all agree on the concept, but the phrase "treat others like you wish to be treated" is being interpreted differently by everybody.

Some of us are seeing that as "if you would like massages, then you should offer massages to others". Which in my case doesn't work because hubs doesn't like massages, but I do. So he won't accept my massages and to get one I need to ask.

And some of us are seeing it as a broader sense of treat others with respect and honesty like you wish to be treated. Which I'm thinking we all agree with.

So instead of arguing semantics of a phrase that can be interpreted either way, how about we talk about what we seem to be agreeing on:

Act in good faith, with good intentions, honesty, respect and love, in order to receive same back. Communicate with your partner(s) about what they want and need, so that you know how to treat them specifically in the manner they wish to be treated, even though that may be completely opposite of how you wish to be treated. (And respect the differences.)
Here is a nice little description of how the The Golden Rule works in life, written by a Humanist and relating it to empathy:

"Sometimes people argue that the Golden Rule is imperfect because it makes the assumption that everyone has the same tastes and opinions and wants to be treated the same in every situation. But the Golden Rule is a general moral principle, not a hard and fast rule to be applied to every detail of life. Treating other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves does not mean making the assumption that others feel exactly as we do about everything. The treatment we all want is recognition that we are individuals, each with our own opinions and feelings and for these opinions and feelings to be afforded respect and consideration. The Golden Rule is not an injunction to impose one’s will on someone else!

Trying to live according to the Golden Rule means trying to empathise with other people, including those who may be very different from us. Empathy is at the root of kindness, compassion, understanding and respect – qualities that we all appreciate being shown, whoever we are, whatever we think and wherever we come from. And although it isn’t possible to know what it really feels like to be a different person or live in different circumstances and have different life experiences, it isn’t difficult for most of us to imagine what would cause us suffering and to try to avoid causing suffering to others. For this reason many people find the Golden Rule’s corollary – “do not treat people in a way you would not wish to be treated yourself” – more pragmatic.

The Golden Rule cannot be claimed for any one philosophy or religion; indeed, the successful evolution of communities has depended on its use as a standard through which conflict can be resolved. Throughout the ages, many individual thinkers and spiritual traditions have promoted one or other version of it. Here are some examples of the different ways it has been expressed:
  • Do not to your neighbour what you would take ill from him. (Pittacus, 650 BCE)
  • Do not unto another that you would not have him do unto you. Thou needest this law alone. It is the foundation of all the rest. (Confucius, 500 BCE)
  • Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing. (Thales, 464 BCE)
  • What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them. (Sextus the Pythagorean, 406 BCE)
  • We should conduct ourselves toward others as we would have them act toward us. (Aristotle, 384 BCE)
  • Cherish reciprocal benevolence, which will make you as anxious for another’s welfare as your own. (Aristippus of Cyrene, 365 BCE)
  • Act toward others as you desire them to act toward you. ( Isocrates, 338 BCE)
  • This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you. (From the Mahabharata (5:1517), 300 BCE)
  • What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. ( Rabbi Hillel 50 BCE)
  • Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (From the Bible, Leviticus 19:18 1440 BCE)
  • Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them. (Jesus of Nazareth, circa 30 CE)"
The above is from http://www.thinkhumanism.com/the-golden-rule.html
 
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thank you NYCindie, I was waiting for someone to use the word "empathy"... I would add "compassion" and "consideration" to that... Mono likes to use "extended consideration" when it comes to poly dynamics as metamour love is sometimes the make or break of a dynamic...

To me, "empathy" is a bit different than doing "unto others as you would have them do unto you." It revolves around thinking how you would feel in the situation rather than doing what YOU would like or do in the situation. It takes the "I" "me" and "self" out of it for me and looks at it from "they" "we" and "us" instead. This to me is what builds strong community, strengthens communication, builds trust and quite frankly is what I think will be the only way to end wars, create peace and save our planet... :) just saying.
 
I liked that humanistic version NYCINDIE... thanks. :)

I agree empathy is totally important. But I'm realizing that different people have differing abilities to be empathetic. My hubs is not empathetic. At all. He can listen to what I say, and see how I'm feeling, but he doesn't "get" why, doesn't really understand, and cannot put himself in my position. I spent 10 years not understanding that. So for him, it's important for him to communicate with me and for me to lay it down exactly what's going on and what I need. I don't (can't) expect him to understand me, or know how I feel. But I can expect him to respect that I do feel that way, and for us to do things to correct whatever situation's going on.

If you take the I and me out of it, then you risk treating someone in a specific manner because that to you is respectful and empathetic and helpful, and having that be NOT what they want or need. Maybe that's just my specific experience in life (very possible), but what I want and need is not anything like what hubs wants and needs, and until we sat down and talked and communicated that we didn't know. We both thought we were treating the other one well-- and it was OUR definition of well, not the other person's-- and so we both felt not taken care of and misunderstood a lot of the time. Very frustrating experience.

What I learned from that was not to treat hubs like I would want... but to ask him what he would like in any given situation. I learned not to expect him to "understand" my feelings, but to listen and to work with me (if needed-- sometimes it's all me I just need him to hear it).

I'm really empathetic so it took me... um... 43 years to figure out not everybody is! Hubs and I had an argument (minor) the other night because he doesn't think it is possible to really "understand' someone's feelings unless you've experienced the very exact same thing. :-/ I had to explain to him that I got it that HE can't do that, but many people can. Just because he doesn't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But he really really doesn't understand that ability at all. Even his GF agreed with him that he doesn't have empathy. What he does have is the ability to accept people for who they are, listen to what they're saying, and to adjust to what they need. But you have to tell him straight up what that is.
 
Hubs and I had an argument (minor) the other night because he doesn't think it is possible to really "understand' someone's feelings unless you've experienced the very exact same thing. :-/ I had to explain to him that I got it that HE can't do that, but many people can. Just because he doesn't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But he really really doesn't understand that ability at all. Even his GF agreed with him that he doesn't have empathy. What he does have is the ability to accept people for who they are, listen to what they're saying, and to adjust to what they need. But you have to tell him straight up what that is.

People learn to block various kinds of empathy for different reasons. The kinds of empathy that your hubs blocks may be something whose emotional effects you have learned to manage but he hasn't. Likewise, he may be able to empathize with some other kind of experience that you would resist. Personally, I have found that some women have trouble empathizing with the fatherly feelings of male authority figures. I think this is because they have devoted so much energy to liberating themselves from the feelings of oppression they get from dealing with such men that they develop a resistance to understanding such men's positions and what they're feeling when they are pursuing paternalistic goals. The same woman could easily identify with a mother's struggle with her children or with a partner but when it comes to understanding/empathizing with a paternalistic man, she'll shoot into opposition or just glaze over. Please note, I am not generalizing but just talking about something I've noticed in a few people.
 
should i know or not?

Brief description, I have been with my girlfriend for 1 1/2 years who is polyamorous. She became involved with a man about 7 months ago.

Since then I have been going back and forth if I want to know what happens between them. I don't think she tells him what happens between us so I go back and forth if I want to know if I have a right to know. So looking for some advice.

Do I have a right to know? If so if anyone can answer should I know? As in is it helpful or hurtful? I think I want to know because of my jealousy but I am trying so hard to control that feeling. I am confused please help.
 
Do you want to know? It's not a matter of SHOULD. I like to know when my partners start a sexual relationship with someone new but outside that I have very little desire to know details. For me it feels like I'm intruding on something personal between them.

Also is he comfortable with having his sex life shared with you? Although you share a partner there might be some things he wishes to keep private and his wishes should be respected. If these are things that he would tell you directly then there's probably no concern in your shared partner sharing the details with you.
 
Since then I have been going back and forth if I want to know what happens between them.

What, specifically, do you mean by this? "What happens between them" is too broad of an idea; you need to be specific about what you mean so there isn't any confusion when you discuss it with your gf. Do you mean knowing about where they go on dates, whether they hold hands, who ate what for dinner, how often they say the word 'camel'? Do you mean knowing what deep, dark secrets they share, how many times they kiss, what color socks he wears for her, whether or not they take tapdancing classes? Do you mean how and how often they have sex? How fulfilling it is? What position he prefers? How much she likes what he does?

Some (much) of what they do is, frankly, not even your buisiness, unless EVERYBODY agrees that it should be. You're not talking only about HER privacy, but HIS, too.

There are some things that are your right to know and her obligation to disclose - those things are anything that may have a direct impact on your life. For example, you are entitled to know about anything that involves your health - if they are sexually active, you should know that, and what their safer sex practices are (condoms, other barriers, etc.). This is important and deserves some negotiation. If she has sex with both of you with no barrier protection, that increases the risk both of you are exposed to, and is important for you to know so you can make educated decisions about your health.

But things like how often they have sex, what he likes to do during sex, how small or how big his body parts are, even how often they cuddle or kiss, just aren't your business. That involves his privacy. If HE is okay with her telling you how he likes to have sex, fine, but that's his privacy and he should have the right to decide who he shares it with.

I don't think she tells him what happens between us

You have a right to your privacy, too. He deserves to know his safer sex risks, just like you do, so he should know if you guys have sex and what your safer sex practices are. But he shouldn't get to know things like what color underwear you wear or how many orgasms you had last week unless you're okay with her telling him that. This is something you should discuss with your gf, you shouldn't have to guess what she tells others about your privacy.

so I go back and forth if I want to know if I have a right to know.

If you WANT to know if he has a mole on his left buttock, or if he kisses her dimples, or if you feel you REQUIRE her to tell you these things, then she needs to know that so she can either agree to tell you and risk losing her bf because he might not date someone who shares private info about his sex life, or she can refuse and risk you ending the relationship because you can't handle her not telling you his private stuff. That's for you and her to hammer out together, and set boundaries and expectations about.

Do I have a right to know?

Anything that DIRECTLY IMPACTS YOUR LIFE, you have a right to know. Other stuff, boils down to what you feel you NEED or WANT to know, and whether she and he are okay sharing it with you. He probably doesn't mind you knowing how the tap dancing class went, but he might not want you to know how many hours he spent crying with her about his cat passing away. Some stuff is just private.

If so if anyone can answer should I know? As in is it helpful or hurtful? I think I want to know because of my jealousy but I am trying so hard to control that feeling. I am confused please help.

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "What BENEFIT will our relationship have when she tells me about _____?" Safer sex stuff, big benefit. Whether he has a cute freckle on the end of his dick, probably not beneficial. But this is stuff you need to determine with her and, to a lesser degree, with him (or her with him).
 
If you... feel you REQUIRE her to tell you these things, then she needs to know that so she can either agree... or she can refuse and risk you ending the relationship...
OR, instead of you breaking it off because neither she nor he wants you to be privy to the intimate moments or details of their relationship, re-assess the level of knowledge you feel you need and find a compromise. Maybe you don't actually need any details, but simply want to be told if sex took place (as an example,if that's the kind of thing you're talking about).

What I think is more important is that you say you want to know because of your jealousy. Usually any actions motivated by jealousy end badly. Look at what's underneath the jealousy and work on taking responsibility for those feelings -- like asking yourself, "What am I afraid of?" and doing some inner work to resolve the basis of those fears, for example -- without requiring her to divulge information that isn't any of your business. The only thing I think you need to know about is their safe sex practices. He is not an add-on to your relationship, and owes you nothing. She is in two relationships and they each deserve their own space and privacy.
 
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This is an awesome thread! Good info to think on.

He is not an add-on to your relationship, and owes you nothing. She is in two relationships and they each deserve their own space and privacy.

My two men are best friends. One is excessively private about everything, the other is private about almost nothing. I did ask Current bf, 'do you want to know and how much?' He knows First bf, and how much FBF values his privacy. CBF actually said 'whatever works for you.' FBF would like to pretend that I am not still CBF's girlfriend, I think. Although we do still talk about him.

So, even though there is not sex in all four relationships (in this emotional triad, sexual vee), there definitely are four relationships. [me with FBF, me with CBF, CBF and FBF, and the three of us]

I love this forum for working my brain and my heart.
 
Everyone is with everyone in varying degrees in our situation. I know I can talk to E about most anything physical between him and T and him and me. With T, he's told me that he'll let me know if I'm telling him too much about things between E and me.

I second the idea of curiosity and perhaps hidden motives. However, the last thing you want is for your life to turn into Pandora's living room on Christmas morning. Never ask questions you don't really want to know the answers to.
 
Knowledge can affect jealousy in two ways (probably more, but two that I can think of).

One: finding out that things aren't as bad as your worst imagination made them out to be is reassuring. They had sex, and she still came back to you, she still loves you, the world didn't end. That's the good way.

Two: finding out fuels your insecurity, makes you hate the arrangement, and shut down or want to end the poly aspect. That's the bad way.

I'm a very open person. I talk about my husband sometimes on dates, not like... in your face or making a big deal of it... just in the sense that we share a life together and there are parts of me that are related to him and affect my behaviour. This seems to feel more comfortable when the person I'm on a date with is also in a serious relationship. I find myself doing it less when I'm on a date with a single person.

I also tell my husband about my dates. He's my best friend, and you always tell your best friend when you have an awesome date! It hasn't happened yet, but if I get intimate with someone, I'm definitely going to tell him that it happened, but I don't intend to give him all the "kiss & tell" details. As far as I'm concerned, that's between me and the other person, and I respect his or her privacy.
 
Clear thinking

..............
Since then I have been going back and forth if I want to know what happens between them. I don't think she tells him what happens between us so I go back and forth if I want to know if I have a right to know. So looking for some advice.

Do I have a right to know? If so if anyone can answer should I know? As in is it helpful or hurtful? I think I want to know because of my jealousy but I am trying so hard to control that feeling. I am confused please help.

My friend, you seem to have been into a lot of "deep thinking based on assumptions". As you think "deep into the matter" you will hold backlog of assumptions.

You might consider replacing few assumptions with facts that your gf would like to disclose.

Then you myt get more thoughts that can ease the relationship further.

B cool. B sweet.
 
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