Veto Arrangements - Merged Threads, General Discussion

Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.

So he doesn't want to hurt his SO.
And he did act out of free will to end it with this new girl.
Yes.

But it doesn't mean that he didn't want to date her, end of story. That's rather dismissive.

When you read the entire thread, you will probably see it differently. He wanted to date her, but was told not to, twice. Not saying that I agree with even having a Veto power to begin with but if you do, what's the point of a Veto power if he's not going to abide by it? Denying his SO's request would probably mean losing her which he wasn't prepared to do. Hence the compromise.

In poly, I thought the idea was that one didn't have to choose?

Just my thoughts..... :D
 
Yeah, he did want to date me. He was very excited about me in the beginning, and excited when I came back as well. The night that I went to his place (it was one time when we were all in talks), he kept hugging me to him. I had just stood in front of him with normal 2-3 feet of space between us, intending to talk like regular people who were talking, but he kept pulling me into an embrace that was simultaneously sexual and loving. He held my hand as we walked a bit of a way and then pulled me to him to embrace me even more.

He chose me in the first place, remember. He talked to me on OkCupid, and even after I said "uhhh, I don't know" (about open relationships), he talked me into it.

He loves his girlfriend. I know that. He also wanted to date me. He also is highly attracted to me. He doesn't want to hurt her. It's all of it.
 
It sucks that her needs currently mean not being able to work on a shared relationship with you but that is where she is mentally at right now. It is neither right or wrong. Just like it was neither right or wrong for you to have originally left after 7 weeks for your own mental health.

Also, I would agree with what you said above more if it were the case that they decided to close up their relationship or to change their stance to "see people casually but not develop emotional relationships with them" because that would reflect a backtrack from the situation with me that accommodates "what she can handle right now."

But it is not the case that they changed things. Their structure is EXACTLY the same. Date people and love people.

She *is* in a place, mentally and emotionally, where she can accept a woman in his life who means something to him. That is, any rate, their protocol / what they are trying to make happen. It just can't be me in particular.

The thing about it is...I'm not sure what exactly it is that she wants for him. Any woman he dates and enjoys dating is someone he's going to be excited about and very attracted to. It's going to be the same thing with any other woman. And if she only wants him to date people he's lukewarm about, how fair is that to him?

It's not that I think she's denying him "the only woman who would ever be exciting to him" (me). I think A LOT of women could make him very happy and excited. I mean, over time. As we all know, that sort of thing isn't just a dime a dozen. But sure, other women besides me could quite easily be very attractive and exciting to him.

The point is...surely she must know that all women he's excited about are going to feel threatening. It doesn't make sense to say "don't date this woman" when the thing that bothered you about that woman ("she feels threatening to me") is VERY LIKELY going to be true of subsequent women as well.
 
Wait a minute. He said on his profile they are open? That is vastly different than poly for some people. Its about sex and casualness not about love and commitment. Perhaps this is something to ponder. Perhaps you were to close for comfort.
 
Wait a minute. He said on his profile they are open? That is vastly different than poly for some people. Its about sex and casualness not about love and commitment. Perhaps this is something to ponder. Perhaps you were to close for comfort.

They used the "open relationship" wording, but they mean polyamory. Believe me, I know. They use the word polyamory just as often. They use the words interchangeably, but their meaning is love relationships that are equal.

I know and you know open relationship and polyamory are different, but there are just some people that use them interchangeably and mean one thing over the other. But since I know them and talked to them, believe me...they are polyamorous. Or that's what their goal is.

Not to sound snippy, (and I don't expect you to read the whole thread), but...the whole thread explains things.
 
Apologies for the previous misunderstanding. Since you contacted him, then if he were going to need her agreement to date you he should, imo, have tempered his reaction to you a little. Been a little more cautious, a little less, "Yes, I want to date you" and more, "This is something worth considering, let's all talk about it."

I've been "vetoed", from your point of view, by everyone from new girlfriends to parents to church elders. And not even from a romantic relationship, but just a friendship. Yes, it sucks when someone doesn't care about you ENOUGH to choose you when they're being told, "I'm not comfortable with you dating her/being friends with her" or "She's not someone you should be dating/friends with" but that's life.

You got a few pages of sympathy, but now you seem determined to keep arguing your side until EVERYONE agrees with you. Not gonna happen. You didn't put this in the Blog section, so people are going to voice their opinions. You're not going to get a consensus that You Were Right and She Was Wrong. You suggested something. She declined. Good for you for doing some learning about yourself, but she's not obligated to agree to try anything. She doesn't NEED an excuse to say, "No thanks, not interested." Then it was up to him to decide if he wanted to date her or you, which he did. You say it was her choice, but it was his too. Funny how you keep being understanding of his choice but not so much of hers. Perhaps because his is less of a rejection of you personally? Let me ask you this: if you could do it over again, would you rather he just tell you that after thinking about he wasn't interested? Or would you rather know the truth about why he decided not to date you? That's one thing I've been wondering about the "complete honesty" of poly- does it help to know he wants to date you but won't because of her? Or is it easier to move on from him if you're under the impression that it was completely his choice and decision with no influence from her?

Anyway, back on the subject, neither of them sound ready for poly, so if they keep going with trying to have an open or poly relationship I really hope they work on their own shit, because to KEEP hurting people they try to have relationships with WOULD be irresponsible and cruel.
 
Apologies for the previous misunderstanding. Since you contacted him, then if he were going to need her agreement to date you he should, imo, have tempered his reaction to you a little. Been a little more cautious, a little less, "Yes, I want to date you" and more, "This is something worth considering, let's all talk about it."

I've been "vetoed", from your point of view, by everyone from new girlfriends to parents to church elders. And not even from a romantic relationship, but just a friendship. Yes, it sucks when someone doesn't care about you ENOUGH to choose you when they're being told, "I'm not comfortable with you dating her/being friends with her" or "She's not someone you should be dating/friends with" but that's life.

You got a few pages of sympathy, but now you seem determined to keep arguing your side until EVERYONE agrees with you. Not gonna happen. You didn't put this in the Blog section, so people are going to voice their opinions. You're not going to get a consensus that You Were Right and She Was Wrong. You suggested something. She declined. Good for you for doing some learning about yourself, but she's not obligated to agree to try anything. She doesn't NEED an excuse to say, "No thanks, not interested." Then it was up to him to decide if he wanted to date her or you, which he did. You say it was her choice, but it was his too. Funny how you keep being understanding of his choice but not so much of hers. Perhaps because his is less of a rejection of you personally? Let me ask you this: if you could do it over again, would you rather he just tell you that after thinking about he wasn't interested? Or would you rather know the truth about why he decided not to date you? That's one thing I've been wondering about the "complete honesty" of poly- does it help to know he wants to date you but won't because of her? Or is it easier to move on from him if you're under the impression that it was completely his choice and decision with no influence from her?

Anyway, back on the subject, neither of them sound ready for poly, so if they keep going with trying to have an open or poly relationship I really hope they work on their own shit, because to KEEP hurting people they try to have relationships with WOULD be irresponsible and cruel.

I'm not trying to make everyone agree with me, but if someone says "you should have done such and such," (and I did do such and such), I'll let them know that I did.

The thing is, I know how it works. Secondaries will sympathize, primaries will justify the girl's actions. We all have our biases, and I don't blame anyone for them. Just interacting with people and showing (when asked) that I did do everything I could.

About me sympathizing with him. I've said a number of times that I don't. I just put much more of the onus on her. But if people really want to hear me attribute it more to him...I'll repeat the statement that yeah, I blame him too. It wasn't al her.

I did already say that though.

That's one thing I've been wondering about the "complete honesty" of poly- does it help to know he wants to date you but won't because of her? Or is it easier to move on from him if you're under the impression that it was completely his choice and decision with no influence from her?

I think it's pretty equal as far as how easy it makes it for me to move on. Because even if I wanted to hang on to the former (he wants to date me but she won't him), it still falls into the category of he chose to respect her wishes instead of be with me). Either way is hurtful to me. But well, yeah, obviously, it's A LITTLE less hurtful because he did want to (date me). I mean, most people would feel way shittier if the guy said (without any other influence): "Sorry, not interested in you."
 
I'm not trying to make everyone agree with me, but if someone says "you should have done such and such," (and I did do such and such), I'll let them know that I did.

The thing is, I know how it works. Secondaries will sympathize, primaries will justify the girl's actions. We all have our biases, and I don't blame anyone for them. Just interacting with people and showing (when asked) that I did do everything I could.

About me sympathizing with him. I've said a number of times that I don't. I just put much more of the onus on her. But if people really want to hear me attribute it more to him...I'll repeat the statement that yeah, I blame him too. It wasn't al her.

I did already say that though.



I think it's pretty equal as far as how easy it makes it for me to move on. Because even if I wanted to hang on to the former (he wants to date me but she won't him), it still falls into the category of he chose to respect her wishes instead of be with me). Either way is hurtful to me. But well, yeah, obviously, it's A LITTLE less hurtful because he did want to (date me). I mean, most people would feel way shittier if the guy said (without any other influence): "Sorry, not interested in you."

Oh, and what i said about "secondaries will sympathize, primaries will justify the girl's actions..." -- obviously I'm generalizing. Nobody needs to take offense. I know people can be objective about things, regardless of their stand point or position. Regardless, I think the generalization GENERALLY holds true.
 
I've been "vetoed", from your point of view, by everyone from new girlfriends to parents to church elders. And not even from a romantic relationship, but just a friendship. Yes, it sucks when someone doesn't care about you ENOUGH to choose you when they're being told, "I'm not comfortable with you dating her/being friends with her" or "She's not someone you should be dating/friends with" but that's life.

And never did I say that those other contexts aren't also vetoes. I'd find it just as immature to tell a platonic female friend not to be friends with another female.

I see what you're saying about "vetoes" being a part of life, and I agree that they are (in subtle ways in all different types of relationships). But equating "well everybody does it" to "it's right" -- I don't agree with.
 
I don't see it as a wrong to tell someone that you aren't comfortable with certain things. Whether those things are habits like smoking, drinking, texting while in a conversation, all the way to having a relationship(s) with certain people.

If she hadn't told him she couldn't handle you dating her, and then her insecurities caused issues for all of you, you'd be judging her for not being honest. Which would you rather have? Honesty that creates a veto or hidden issues that create drama? I'd go with the veto to save myself long-term issues.

I don't consider vetoes inherently right or wrong. I don't consider telling someone that I am not comfortable with them being friends with someone wrong if I have a good reason for it. I don't consider it wrong to tell my husband that I am not comfortable with him dating someone who is also struggling with some of the same issues I am struggling with if he only has the time/energy/ability to deal with one person with those issues.
 
K, I read. Well. Skimmed. Its kinda long. ;)

I get that he wants to date her. I guess now I think that he just doesn't want to so much that he will push it with his girlfriend. Actually, I think there hasn't been enough time for things to unfold.

You are all so new to poly and open relationships. It doesn't all just happen over night. People don't just snap their fingers and bingo it all works for everyone. It takes time to process and is about the journey, not the destination. Just because things seems all tied up in a nice bow because you are dating him and he has her does not mean that the drama ends there. It goes on and on and on. Its just how it is with multi level relationship dynamics. Its exhausting some times and just letting it go is often all that can be done.

My advice would be to see it as is. It is what it is. Likely they are processing it if he is that interested in doing so and likely there will be something else come up that you can't even possibly imagine right now. Pace yourself Mercury. Save your energy. You have pages and pages here of this now and really, there is nothing I can see that you could possibly do to change how THEY do things. You've done what you think is best and good for you. That's all you can do.
 
I don't see it as a wrong to tell someone that you aren't comfortable with certain things. Whether those things are habits like smoking, drinking, texting while in a conversation, all the way to having a relationship(s) with certain people.

If she hadn't told him she couldn't handle you dating her, and then her insecurities caused issues for all of you, you'd be judging her for not being honest. Which would you rather have? Honesty that creates a veto or hidden issues that create drama? I'd go with the veto to save myself long-term issues.

I don't consider vetoes inherently right or wrong. I don't consider telling someone that I am not comfortable with them being friends with someone wrong if I have a good reason for it. I don't consider it wrong to tell my husband that I am not comfortable with him dating someone who is also struggling with some of the same issues I am struggling with if he only has the time/energy/ability to deal with one person with those issues.
As mentioned on another thread, this wouldn't be considered vetoing. Vetoing is demanding another not do certain things or else. Its a form of ultimatum. What you are expressing as the meaning of veto is actually about expressing concerns and requesting certain boundaries be met. That is honest and open communicating and is to be respected I think.

Perhaps this girlfriend has done that and he has framed it as "she said I can't. " Not surprising and not uncommon. Its a cowardly way of saying, "ya, I don't want it be with you because I want to be with her more." (Which is what I was trying to get at in one of my previous posts)

If he isn't dating you it wouldn't be a veto at all actually. Its an agreement they have to start fresh and not look back at where they have been. New boundaries and new beginnings. I see nothing wrong with that. I think you threw a wrench on that Mercury. I think they did everything right in negotiating new boundaries and moving forward to try dating again.. Again. I would suggest you sit and wait. I don't see any indication that time has past and you seem hasty to get moving on this to show her out as wrong and bad. I doubt it will put you in a good standing if you carry that attitude into negotiations if you find yourself in a position to be welcomed to negotiate with at all.
 
K, I read. Well. Skimmed. Its kinda long. ;)

I get that he wants to date her. I guess now I think that he just doesn't want to so much that he will push it with his girlfriend. Actually, I think there hasn't been enough time for things to unfold.

You are all so new to poly and open relationships. It doesn't all just happen over night. People don't just snap their fingers and bingo it all works for everyone. It takes time to process and is about the journey, not the destination. Just because things seems all tied up in a nice bow because you are dating him and he has her does not mean that the drama ends there. It goes on and on and on. Its just how it is with multi level relationship dynamics. Its exhausting some times and just letting it go is often all that can be done.

My advice would be to see it as is. It is what it is. Likely they are processing it if he is that interested in doing so and likely there will be something else come up that you can't even possibly imagine right now. Pace yourself Mercury. Save your energy. You have pages and pages here of this now and really, there is nothing I can see that you could possibly do to change how THEY do things. You've done what you think is best and good for you. That's all you can do.

Thanks for your thoughts. And I agree that it was a learning experience for all.

I actually didn't mean for the thread to become this detailed. I'm not so much trying to be pushy and demand that I'm right. (Initially, I was just writing a general "pity me, people, please!" post. But I'm sort of an analytical person (and a writer), so when people start weighing things, I weigh in as well in that way that is defending myself and my attempts.

I'm actually more okay with the whole situation than it may seem. It's not all that recent. The whole "reconnect attempt" happened in late March and first few weeks of April. And he and I traded a few emails into May about it and various other light topics. I've been really preoccupied with something else since then, actually, but I browse this board every so often and felt a sudden inclination to share about the veto. And then, like I said, I react to the things people say.

I'm actually pretty okay. It's just that I haven't met anybody new. And the guy ("Derek" -- funny, his name is sooo far from Derek) was an appealing guy.
 
As mentioned on another thread, this wouldn't be considered vetoing. Vetoing is demanding another not do certain things or else. Its a form of ultimatum. What you are expressing as the meaning of veto is actually about expressing concerns and requesting certain boundaries be met. That is honest and open communicating and is to be respected I think.

Perhaps this girlfriend has done that and he has framed it as "she said I can't. " Not surprising and not uncommon. Its a cowardly way of saying, "ya, I don't want it be with you because I want to be with her more." (Which is what I was trying to get at in one of my previous posts)

If he isn't dating you it wouldn't be a veto at all actually. Its an agreement they have to start fresh and not look back at where they have been. New boundaries and new beginnings. I see nothing wrong with that. I think you threw a wrench on that Mercury. I think they did everything right in negotiating new boundaries and moving forward to try dating again.. Again. I would suggest you sit and wait. I don't see any indication that time has past and you seem hasty to get moving on this to show her out as wrong and bad. I doubt it will put you in a good standing if you carry that attitude into negotiations if you find yourself in a position to be welcomed to negotiate with at all.

We can go back and forth about whether it is a veto or not. Some people would consider it a veto and others wouldn't. No one's going to change their mind.

Hasty to get moving on what?

I'm just talking on a message board; I'm not speaking to them.

I guess you're referring to "if they decide to negotiate about you seeing him again, you (as in me, mercury) would need to lose the bad attitude"?

Is that what you're saying?

Because yeah, of course, I would be kind and considerate if I talked with her/him/them again.

I don't think that will happen though.
 
As mentioned on another thread, this wouldn't be considered vetoing. Vetoing is demanding another not do certain things or else. Its a form of ultimatum. What you are expressing as the meaning of veto is actually about expressing concerns and requesting certain boundaries be met. That is honest and open communicating and is to be respected I think.

If I say I'm not comfortable with something, then am I not saying "Don't do it or else I'm not going to stick around?" It's one and the same to me. I guess the way I would phrase it would be more of a take-it-or-leave-it your choice, not mine kind of thing, though? I don't know. I don't really see the difference if the idea is the same.
 
To add: I don't see myself getting involved with him or them again unless the dynamic was vastly different, where she seemed really open and truly ready for polyamory. And him too. Or really willing to try.

I wouldn't get re-involved in a situation with them where it was very clear that she/he/they wanted me to know my place, etc., where it was just "negotiating" in such a way that I make sure I don't overstep her bounds, and everything was more about her and/or them than about me.

It was a huge mistake to get involved with them at all.

In essence, it doesn't matter how I "sound" or if I "appear to be making her the bad guy." It's not as if I'm anticipating a reunion and need to prepare myself by displaying the right attitude for a reunion...lol...definitely not.
 
Km34- the difference between veto and asking for a partner to respect your opinion is a matter of ultimatum. A veto is an ultimatum. Its like saying, "I will not stay with you if you do not do as I tell you to do." Sometimes partners give each other the right to veto others. An act I find cruel to anyone they date btw. In that situation its meant to be a sign of honour toward a partner (usually primary) but really its a sign of allowing them to own your heart. Foolish and just not realistic I have discovered.

I am not referring to anything you have done, said or think and feel in your relationship. It comes down to basic descriptions of a veto. Try doing a tag search and you will see the thread on this topic that has been discussed already. Sorry, I don't have time right now to find it for you :(
 
Yep. Talk about it on the Internet. To strangers. With an anonymous nickname. That always hurts people in one's real life.
 
Well, good luck. It fucking sucks and I feel for you, having been the one dumped because of someone elses fear and threat and because they didn't want me that close to their man. Yup. You have my sympathy. ;)
 
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