New to it all

Taxes

Well to claim the kids on your guys' return isn't as straight forward as you think. There are 7 tests that need to be met. And in those tests she could also be claimed as your dependent. I can't say yes or no if it's possible without more information (tax accounting is my career). You could pm me and we could go over all the facts.
 
Well to claim the kids on your guys' return isn't as straight forward as you think. There are 7 tests that need to be met. And in those tests she could also be claimed as your dependent. I can't say yes or no if it's possible without more information (tax accounting is my career). You could pm me and we could go over all the facts.

That would be great to know before hand. We have been taking care of the kids all of this year (my hubby and I) financially, don't know if that will help. But yes, I can pm you.
 
This situation is so complicated.

You and your husband want a triad. (Defined as all 3 people loving, lusting for, touching and fucking each other equally.) From what you're saying here, if not his ex-wife, some other hot bi babe will do. First off, this is a red flag. Do a tag search here on unicorns and triads. Trying to force a triad almost never works. You all have the classic signs of a failed triad. It's kind of shocking that your h has to force himself to "go in unto her" as the Bible says. And she has sadly low self esteem if she is willing to put up with getting a few reluctant crumbs of his affection a few times a year.

Shes a former Fundamentalist Mormon? Raised in one of those communities where older men marry multiple teen girls and start breeding them right away? No wonder she has a "chemical imbalance." Did she run away from that sect? Is her mom still in it?

If she has that background, no wonder she's messed up. No wonder she will put up with sex once every 5-11 weeks, and reluctant sex at that. Yikes. Her expectations for a MF relationship must be very low.

You know that having your husband away for a month or 3 , with only one week home in between trips, is highly unusual. Yet, he's doing it and trying to maintain a relationship with 2 wives at home. I don't know when you'd even have time for him to do any counseling with you or her... once a week is ideal. Once every month or 3 probably wouldn't do much good.

And if he makes his ex feel really uncomfortable (how can she stand being told that if you leave, she does, etc?) and she does move out, you and your h think you will find a unicorn willing and able to live with you and only see the guy once every 5-11 weeks?

Is she aware he avoids being with her even as infrequently as he is? Can she see he is sitting up late with you to avoid going into her bedroom to fuck her? Yuck.

You can't force a triad to work. You seem to want to make him love her again, desire her again. I don't see this working. If I were him I'd spend the $ and move her to a house nearby. You and she get along, great. You can go to her place, have her come over, the kids can see each other a lot, but she's got her own place and no one is forcing themselves to have sex with her when he comes home every month or three.

By the way, is your husband celibate for those 5-11 weeks he is away from you?
 
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He has no choice but to be away from home for that length of time, it's his job. He has been trying to get them to let him come home every 3 weeks or at least to give him an extra week off for every 3 weeks he works....no luck so far. He DOES usually, on good days, get to come home every 4 or 5 weeks.

I can handle his being gone for 3 to 9 weeks, but past 3 months I can't do. My grandpa was a truck driver and my uncle is a driver so I'm used to the long hours and weeks away from home.


Yes, he is celibate out there. I'm on the phone with him frequently, besides he works 16 to 18 hours a day and sometimes 20 hours a day. He has no energy for anything except to fall into bed and sleep for whatever little sleep he can get.

We've talked about that, her getting a place nearby, but she wants to stay at the house with me. We've told her that she can if she wants to she does not have to stay if she doesn't want, but she insists she wants to be with me in the same house.

She came from the Mormon that had multiple wives, not so sure about the younger girls with older men thing.

I guess that's possibly a little of why he does the bare minimum to keep her around. He wants me to be able to have a relationship I want with a female. He knows it's hard to find those who are able to deal with his being gone so much, and she deals with it as well as I do. So he is able to be a part of the triad as well with her here and she is willing to be with both.

Yes, I know this situation is complicated. That's why I ask for advice to hopefully get it smoothed out so it will be waaayyyyy less complicated. I know we can have a successful poly relat or even a triad, as long as we are able to find the right person who is willing to be a part of it. (We both have same tastes in women).

I have been a part of triads as the secondary. I was the one to leave both because I wanted to be in different places(I was young, wanted to see the world and traveled a lot, you know how it goes), my feelings for the people were not sufficient enough for me to stay and lead them on, so I left so that feelings would not be hurt worse than they were with my choosing to leave. They were not bad experiences, but not for me at a time in my life where I was unable to sit still in one place for long.


Hell, I never wanted to settle down and get married...then I met my husband lol. He shares a lot of my opinions, beliefs, and openness to try different things that others consider "taboo" or just wont do. He communicates with me like no one else ever has and we are equal on the same wavelengths and same page so to speak, and he is able to fulfill my hunger for intellectual stimulation. This is rare to find in someone, especially to find someone who understands me so well. So, lo-and-behold, I ended up changing my mind about marriage and losing my fear of commitment.
 
I'm curious so I hope it's okay if I ask, what type of work does your husband do? Is he a trucker (18-wheeler type)?

Magdlyn does make some good points and I think the one that sticks with me most is how difficult his work schedule is. Heck, even if he was single with nothing to do at home. 16-20 hours a day with no days off for 3-9 weeks? I'm surprised he doesn't just sleep for the whole week he has off. I guess that does make counseling tough to benefit from, heck it makes it hard for him to maintain (let alone improve) any relationships at all by any means, and yet he's (essentially) got two wives to husband and five kids to father. I guess it's no wonder he doesn't bother putting much work into improving things with his ex. All his energy is pouring into his work. Even his emotional energy must be a sorely depleted.

It seems to me that the main thing you'd like to see improved is that you'd like him to have more desire for his ex, also for the whole family to be happier but for that we need the specifics of what's making everyone unhappy. I sense unhappiness coming from his ex because she'd like him to desire her more, and I sense unhappiness coming from him because to him it's a hassle to have any romantic (or even platonic?) relationship with her at all. And maybe you're (somewhat) unhappy because you see that dynamic between him and her and it disappoints you that they're not happier. (Are the kids happy enough in your opinion?)

As I said, the main problem seems to boil down to the unease in the relationship between your husband and his ex. We have determined that her chemistry needs medication (for her emotional well-being and so she can be nice to her loved ones), and she is now on medication. How helpful is the medication so far? Does it need any tinkering (with perscription type and dosage)? Is she doing better for her kids? Is she doing better for your husband? Are these improvements sufficient to make the kids happy? Are they sufficient to put your husband's trust issues on the mend? Is everyone's happiness improved enough to grant you contentment? If not, is it continuing to improve?

Is there anything amiss besides her chemistry/medication issues? Are there specific things she ever did to wound your husband that she could make right? Do the children need any specific kind of restitution from her?

We can certainly advise you on this thread; I believe we have, and I believe we'll continue to do so as long as you still desire some added advice from us. Let's just say that the more specific information we have, the better (and more helpful) our advice can become. Which is why I ask the questions I ask, and in general I encourage you to share as much information as you feel you can, even if it means lengthy posts and you feel like it's overshare. You never know when some detail on your end could germinate an idea on our end. Plus just talking about the problems may give you some more ideas.

I have to perceive your situation as challenging to say the least, but that doesn't mean I think you should just throw up your hands and quit. Some situations that would suck for one person work just fine for another person. I guess my objective is to see you get to a place where you feel contented with your family relationships and where they're headed. If by any means that can be accomplished, then let's put our heads together and figure out how to do it.

Just as an aside, how well are you and "the ex" getting along? Are the two of you happy/contented with each other at least? If not, what needs to improve?

It sounds to me like on average, both of you are okay with your husband's long absences. (Are the kids also okay with it?) If so, then I'll not even worry about it. Is the hard work schedule doing him under? Is he frustrated with the family time it costs him? Does he need a job/career change for his own sake, or can he (continue to) cope with it? I know he's tried to get off once every three weeks, but for now let's assume that'll never happen and confirm that everyone in the family can at least live with it. I know you said you've found it to be a bit much lately. Do you think things will settle back to a 4-5 week work block soon? Do you need your husband to seek a new line of work?

Bottom line: what's the minimum of things that need to improve before everyone in your family can be satisfactorily happy? Let's draw up a description of that (perhaps in list format), and go from there.
 
I'm curious so I hope it's okay if I ask, what type of work does your husband do? Is he a trucker (18-wheeler type)?

Kevin,

I don't mind questions, feel free to ask them. If they can help with gaining insight for advice and help me to gain insight by reading over and seeing different ideas, then by all means I am for it. My ultimate goal is to make this a successful triad. I will do my utmost best to answer every question you may have.

My hubby works in the oilfields of North Dakota. Which is over 1800 miles away. He does drive 18 wheelers, but also drives other trucks for delivery to different well sites. Sand, water, oil, etc...He also has a part time job out there hauling acid for a company for his times he is unable to come home, but needs something to do of the downtime (such as days they have their 24 hour restarts). Yes, he does put a lot of energy into work, but he does it because he feels it is his duty as a man to provide for and take care of his family and make sure all gets anything they want or need. So, he tends to overly spoil us lol. Just the way he is.

Magdlyn does make some good points and I think the one that sticks with me most is how difficult his work schedule is. Heck, even if he was single with nothing to do at home. 16-20 hours a day with no days off for 3-9 weeks? I'm surprised he doesn't just sleep for the whole week he has off. I guess that does make counseling tough to benefit from, heck it makes it hard for him to maintain (let alone improve) any relationships at all by any means, and yet he's (essentially) got two wives to husband and five kids to father. I guess it's no wonder he doesn't bother putting much work into improving things with his ex. All his energy is pouring into his work. Even his emotional energy must be a sorely depleted.

He puts a lot of effort towards his and my relationship and efforts to ensure we communicate on all levels and efforts when he is home to ensure he and I have a strong relationship and bond. (Hence why I get confused why he doesn't extend more energy towards doing a little more towards her). He does attempt to TRY to keep things even between her and I when it comes to him, for example when he takes me on a cruise he also does the same for her (but he says it is so she won't have a blow out over it if he doesn't do the same for her). And we do rotate nights with alone time and sleeping arrangements. Though I must say I am the biggest part in trying to make sure everyone is treated equally and fairly....it just doesn't always work out that way lol. Mainly due to his own actions, as should be obvious from posts.

It seems to me that the main thing you'd like to see improved is that you'd like him to have more desire for his ex, also for the whole family to be happier but for that we need the specifics of what's making everyone unhappy. I sense unhappiness coming from his ex because she'd like him to desire her more, and I sense unhappiness coming from him because to him it's a hassle to have any romantic (or even platonic?) relationship with her at all. And maybe you're (somewhat) unhappy because you see that dynamic between him and her and it disappoints you that they're not happier. (Are the kids happy enough in your opinion?)

You are right with the unhappiness from her due to wanting him to desire her more, unhappiness from him because it is a hassle to deal with her, and from me because I see the dynamics between them and it does bother me. I think I had this image in my head when we all 3 finally went from "POSSIBILITY" to actuality, that it would be no different than building a relationship otherwise, such as it was between him and I, and so on. Like, I had an image in my head that it would be all happy, happy, rainbows with the usual bickers or small hardships thrown in which are normal. A happy, functional family unit. I was not expecting this stuff.

The kids are happy enough as I can see. They have been doing much, much, better since she has been on her medications and has not flipped out on them and everyone else nearly as much.

They have not thrown the outrageous temper tantrums they used to out there when it was just her and them. They have not threatened to beat her to a pulp with cast iron skillets or to run away. Since being here they have gained respect and actually say "yes, ma'am" and so on. At the beginning I had to come down hard on them to not disrespect their mom as they were doing because when they were first here they would lash out at her and hit, kick, scream, bite, and everything at her whenever she would try to get onto them or tell them "no" or anything they did not like...that is not okay with me. They have never treated me or their dad that way and only her...Since then there have been no more issues with that because I always stress the whole respect for people thing. Oh, man, it was horrid! I have never seen kids disrespect their moms to that extent. So, yes, as magdlyn asked in a previous post about her being an ineffectual mom whereas I am better, I will let you ponder that one when you read over what I just stated above lol.

They do chores now, homework, and all without complaining. They asked her at one time "how come you never let us have dessert after dinner when we were out there, but we can have it here?" so, yep. Kids are happier.
 
As I said, the main problem seems to boil down to the unease in the relationship between your husband and his ex. We have determined that her chemistry needs medication (for her emotional well-being and so she can be nice to her loved ones), and she is now on medication. How helpful is the medication so far? Does it need any tinkering (with perscription type and dosage)? Is she doing better for her kids? Is she doing better for your husband? Are these improvements sufficient to make the kids happy? Are they sufficient to put your husband's trust issues on the mend? Is everyone's happiness improved enough to grant you contentment? If not, is it continuing to improve?

We have gotten her meds tweaked and she has done significantly better. She still has issues with getting "twitchy" as she calls it....where she gets on the verge of feeling like she is going to have an explosion. Usually she does great until the kids come home from school and then she gets on edge, but the meds keep her from having an actual explosion. She does try to do better for the kids and does sit with them t help with homework, but she can only handle it for brief spurts of time. Doing better for my husband, somewhat. She says that he for some reason triggers her explosions when he is around. No one else has ever quite triggered her that way, but she says that her dad was like that because he has the disorder too. So even when my hubby is doing nothing wrong she explodes on him...If she is missing time with me, she explodes on him and finds anything and everything she can to fuss at him for doing or not doing or anything. Like when he was home a few weeks ago (he and I both smoke) she exploded on him for going outside to smoke and sitting with me while smoking, then for talking to me while he was in bathroom (something he and I have done since day 1), then for something he did 8 years ago (not taking her to a party to a friends house even though she didn't want to go), then from there to whatever the hell else she came up with......He has stated that she makes it hard to even want to try to work things out with her. I can understand that because there are quite a few times I have had to step in and defend him because he was doing nothing wrong at all and she went off on him.

An example, one night he was telling me about her interest in trying to start a tie-dye business and beading business because she loves that stuff.....she has told me the exact same thing a few days prior....he was telling me about it so we could figure out something nice to do for her that would incorporate her hobby and dreams into something. She went off on him for telling me anything they talked about in private....but it wasn't private and she had just told me about it a few days prior...he and I were just trying to take it to do something nice for her. but in her head he "broke her trust" by talking to me about something that was a private convo between those two about her interest in the business.

Is there anything amiss besides her chemistry/medication issues? Are there specific things she ever did to wound your husband that she could make right? Do the children need any specific kind of restitution from her?

Well, let's see.... specific things she has done to my hubby to make him reluctant to trust her....
She had a fling with her boss but claimed that she never had sex with him....yet she got pregnant with her and my hubby's daughter like a week before they met back up together for their time off (he worked in a different town than she did). So, according to my hubby's family they are not sure their daughter is his and he even questioned it at one point because he was going to get dna test when filing for divorce, until he decided it would be best to not know because she was his regardless of blood...so we are still not sure if she is his or not....

she has taken off on him 3 times with no warnings and took the kids and some of his stuff he bought.

The final time she left she claimed he abused her and sought shelter at a women's shelter and so on....she got proven that was bullshit in court because she lived with his mom and he was working in another town and was at work when the abuse supposedly took place.
(I can vouch that he is not abusive at all because he has never done anything even slightly abusive. He actually finds people who abuse are despicable people.) So, she has lied about him and his character.

One time she left she waited til he went to work and made him think everything was great before she left...then just left out of the blue with the kids again.

This last time she left, she took off and could not be located for more than a year. I think it was 3 years before he got to see his kids again. She even filled their heads with lies about him. When they got to have visitation with us (she finally let them) they saw for their selves she was full of crap and this fueled their rage and resentment towards her even more.

Oh, and the whole 5 years they were together she treated him like crap, wasn't on meds so she always was exploding on him for anything she could cook up...so yeah easy to see why he is reluctant.
He has told me this stuff, his family has seen it and told me, and she has even admitted to all this stuff herself when talking to me about it.
Except, she still maintains she had not slept with her boss just went out to dinner with him a couple of times.
 
We can certainly advise you on this thread; I believe we have, and I believe we'll continue to do so as long as you still desire some added advice from us. Let's just say that the more specific information we have, the better (and more helpful) our advice can become. Which is why I ask the questions I ask, and in general I encourage you to share as much information as you feel you can, even if it means lengthy posts and you feel like it's overshare. You never know when some detail on your end could germinate an idea on our end. Plus just talking about the problems may give you some more ideas.

I have to perceive your situation as challenging to say the least, but that doesn't mean I think you should just throw up your hands and quit. Some situations that would suck for one person work just fine for another person. I guess my objective is to see you get to a place where you feel contented with your family relationships and where they're headed. If by any means that can be accomplished, then let's put our heads together and figure out how to do it.

Just as an aside, how well are you and "the ex" getting along? Are the two of you happy/contented with each other at least? If not, what needs to improve?

It sounds to me like on average, both of you are okay with your husband's long absences. (Are the kids also okay with it?) If so, then I'll not even worry about it. Is the hard work schedule doing him under? Is he frustrated with the family time it costs him? Does he need a job/career change for his own sake, or can he (continue to) cope with it? I know he's tried to get off once every three weeks, but for now let's assume that'll never happen and confirm that everyone in the family can at least live with it. I know you said you've found it to be a bit much lately. Do you think things will settle back to a 4-5 week work block soon? Do you need your husband to seek a new line of work?

Bottom line: what's the minimum of things that need to improve before everyone in your family can be satisfactorily happy? Let's draw up a description of that (perhaps in list format), and go from there.

She and I get along fabulously. We don't bicker or argue, except when I'm having to defend my hubby when he is here because of her irrational explosions at him. She and I communicate about everything and I feel happy and satisfied with her.

The absences are okay and not an issue....we got news tonight that they are working hard to ensure he will be able to come home every 3 - 4 weeks!!!! He has fussed enough about it that HOPEFULLY they will stick with doing it!

*does happy dance* He is overly excited about it too because he says he misses me and being away from home so badly that it is hard sometimes for him. Let's see how it goes. I told him they better stick to their promise because if not they will have an irate wife calling to cuss them out lol. He's like "See, that's why I love you. You always have my back, always there for me, and always support me no matter what or how stupid it is. Even when you tell me it is stupid you still support me and let me make mistakes. That's what a wife is supposed to be." <3 awwww<3 lol.

He is actually trying to get our business up and going so he can be home more. We've been talking about having our own business for over 3 years now and are just now getting opportunities to make it happen.


Things that need to happen for it to improve:

They need to be able to communicate enough or well enough so that they can sit down and get to the root of their issues in order to resolve them...even if I have to mediate.

Even if he can't forget he can maybe forgive some stuff so that he can stand to be around her even if he cant ever trust her 100% again (I don't blame him for not being willing to trust her 100% ever again..she screwed him over so much and so badly).

He needs to realize she feels bad for the stuff and is willing to change hence why she has taken meds to get sorted out.

She needs to apologize to him for the stuff

She needs to stop finding anything and everything she can attack him about and just treat him with respect.

If she has issues with some envy, jealousy, or whatever emotions she is dealing with then sit and talk it out rationally. She can do that with me alone just fine, but not when he is around because she flips out and becomes irrational. VERY VERY VERY frustrating. gah! Especially when I know she is perfectly capable of being able to communicate in a rational manner.

He needs to acknowledge her thoughts, ideas, or feelings as much as he does with mine.

If we can get to the root of whatever the issues are with them I know it can be a happy thing between all to where we can all sit and communicate and work together on important things.

There has been 2 occasions where the 3 of us got to sit down together and come up with opinions, ideas, and such for whatever situation that needed input for solving. and 1 occasion where the 3 of us was able to sit together and talk, laugh, joke, and relax and enjoy being around one another.

So, I know it can happen just it is so rare that it baffles me lol.


Thank you all so so so so much for the different input and views and advice. It means so much to me that people genuinely want to help and work together to solve something that can be good.

This is the communication and working together that I want to see in this relationship we have. That is my ideal. My hubby and I do it together.... she and I do it together.....the 3 together, not so much because those 2 keep it from happening enough to count. :-(

I guess cause I am so big on communication on all levels for anything to work fluidly; which is why my hubby and I are so closely bonded we are inseparable. He is just as big on communication as I am and I know he has tried on numerous occasions to get that to happen but the explosions from her caused him to give up I guess?

He has told her at one time that her always attacking him to bitch at him makes it hard for him to have any feelings towards her.
 
Ah, I think I have a better picture of what all's going down for you guys and how it's like on a day-to-day basis. I appreciate the time you spent to write those posts, my questions were answered generously and I think that helps us both.

Re:
"My hubby works in the oilfields of North Dakota."

Whew ... rough gig. Especially in the Winter.

I feel quite a bit more certain by now that the important problems remaining in your family are the ones between your husband and his ex. It sounds like all of the other problems have either been satisfactorily mended, or are on their way towards mending and looking hopeful.

In addition to the deep distrust that has grown in your husband towards his ex, there is also some mysterious force at work between the two of them that causes them to push each other's buttons. Something about the nuances of their personalities that just doesn't mesh well. That's one thing that would be worth digging into and gaining a closer look at. Who knows, there might be little things they could both do to reduce the button-pushing factor.

You mentioned that the three of you have been able to sit down together a few times and talk about things. That's a good sign. If it could be done, I would actually try to do a sit-down each time your husband is home for a week. Like, establish it as a formal habit. A standing agreement between the three of you. That would mean your husband and his ex would have to agree to it, and you can't decide for them that they'll agree. But I'd suggest the idea to them, and encourage it when you can. Each and every sit-down is an opportunity to practice communicating, as well as investigating the sources of friction and perhaps discovering new insights about the joint relationship.

Of course you don't want to do a sit-down during one of her blow-ups, you want to look for an occasion where everyone is calm and things are going relatively well. If you're willing and able to be a mediator for the other two that's fine; let's work on getting them communicating fruitfully on that level first, and then maybe eventually they can practice talking to each other directly a little at a time. Certain rules should be in place: obvious things like no interrupting, take turns so everyone has a fair chance to talk, no raised voices, no name-calling, etc. ... and some things that are more subtle, such as not trying to assign blame (to self or others), taking ownership for one's own feelings, making efforts to put oneself in the other's shoes, repeating back what the other person said so they know you understand and are listening, etc.

All these rules come naturally when it's just you and the ex talking together, or just you and husband talking together. It's when all three of you sit down together that such rules must be especially kept in mind and formally agreed to.

Not that everyone's going to abide by the rules perfectly all the time by any means; there will probably be many slip-and-falls, especially in the earlier conversations you guys have. So it's important to be patient and persistent in picking yourselves up and dusting yourselves off. If things get too heated, maybe take a break, but come back together and try again.

Keep a list of the rules the three of you feel you should follow (including perhaps a time frame for the sit-down, e.g. an hour might be all you can emotionally stand at first), and perhaps make three copies of the list so you're all looking at it while you talk. In addition, each of you could prepare for the "monthly sit-down" by writing your own personal list of wants, needs, and/or concerns you want to talk about during the next session.

Sometime when it's just you and your husband talking, when things are going pretty well, I'd consider sitting down with him and having a heart-to-heart about where his intentions and commitments lie. Is he putting up with the ex just to hang on to the kids? Is he willing to try to mend things with her if she's willing to make improvements? If not for her or his own sake, would he be willing to try for your sake, and at your request? You might share with him (in a non-accusing way) the vision you have for your triad, and how much it would mean to you if he could help you attain that vision. I suppose a similar conversation might be a good idea between you and her too, sometime when you have a good chance.

Another thing to discuss just you and your husband, is the disabilities of his ex. Yes, disabilities, and not just of the chemical kind either. There is something broken inside her mind, something that makes her lose her grip with rationality. I'm sure he'll agree with that, but the challenge for him is to try to imagine what it must be like to be her, to be angry and stressed out much (most?) of the time, to be pushed to the very edge of her failing ability to hold it together and stay rational and calm. I doubt these things make her feel happy inside, and I have a feeling she doesn't choose them; she doesn't think, "I'm going to be a crazy insane bitch today, and make the man of my life as miserable as possible."

It is my theory that it's a vicious cycle when she can see herself losing control, and can't do a thing about it; it just makes her madder and crazier and more stressed out than ever. If she really reaches down, she probably feels ashamed of her outbursts, and wishes she could make them stop happening. Instead, she just goes on hurting the man that she loves, and that's got to leave her feeling guilty, miserable, defensive, and unhappy. The point is, she has a tougher life to live than it may seem to the uninitiated or on the outside. She is not as strong as your husband is. She wouldn't last five minutes out in the North Dakota cold. But she is probably trying as hard as she can to be a better person (when she's not too discouraged or freaked out to try).

She can probably easily imagine (and I'd prompt her to do so, in private between just you and her) how it would feel to be her ex. Working harsh conditions for a month at a time away from home, missing his family, only to finally have a week off and instead of kind, appreciative treatment from his ex, he has to dread more of her outbursts, more of her searing anger towards him, of her never forgiving his sins (or even misunderstandings) of the past, of, in a word, her turning into a porcupine in his presence so that he can't even get near her. She needs to try to imagine how much she hurts his feelings. Always pointing out his faults, never his good features. Maybe on some level he misses the happiness (and there must have been some, long ago) he once had with her, and would like that back, but just feels like it's impossible and could never happen.

The point is, encourage each of them to try, as hard as it is, to put themselves in each other's shoes. If they can even do that a little, it might help prepare them to work with you as a mediator and have those monthly sit-downs. (Weekly sit-downs, if your husband's future schedule ever allows for it!)

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[continued from above]

I reckon that most of her kids' problems stemmed from their mother's example. They learned from her that it is okay to throw a crazy fit for no reason. Your teachings gave them a different example, and, now they have seen adults getting along together without the outbursts, so they know it's possible, and they can see that it's worth it -- more worth it than any tantrum. They're now choosing the better example, so good for them.

I think it may be that it is (a lot?) harder to reason with her during a tantrum. As hard as it is, you and your husband both might want to say, "I see that you are very upset right now. Let's talk about this again when you're feeling calmer." And then, look for ways to disengage from her and leave her alone for a "time out." When she's ready to be reasoned with, then you come to her (hubby doesn't have to just yet), hear her out as she vents to you about what was upsetting her, sympathize with words such as, "I can see why that would hurt you," and then when she's calmed down a little more, gently say, "You know that you were taking things to far in how dramatic your reaction was, right?" If she agrees, you then have an opening to say, "Would you be willing to offer our husband an apology? After that, the three of us can sit down and talk about what we can all do differently in the future."

The idea here is that whenever she throws a fit, don't just put out the fire and then say, "Whew, I hope that doesn't happen again soon." Instead, make a point to re-engage her as soon as she has calmed down, and reason with her. Try to get her to put herself in hubby's shoes, and feel the hurt that her fit caused him. Try to get her to remember what really set her off, and to say to your husband, "I still need us to talk about this thing that made me upset, but I apologize for turning it into an attack." Something to that effect.

Lurking under all that anger may be some legitimate concerns, but they get flooded out of the picture when she tries to address them by exploding. She needs to know that she can have legitimate concerns that deserve to be heard, without thinking that fit-throwing is a healthy or even effective way to express them. She knows this during her calm moments. Try to use those calm moments to negotiate an apology from her. The reward for the apology is that the three of you then talk (calmly) about what was setting her off, so that she will feel like she can be heard and understood without pitching a fit.

You may need to prep hubby, too, before the three of you sit down to hear her apology, to encourage him to forgive and reciprocate any improvement in her behavior. No saying, "You're sorry? You should be sorry!" Just expressions of appreciation for the fact that she's trying. Remind him that it's harder to be her than it seems, that she struggles against stress and buried panic much (most?) of the time and that the struggle does her in at times. For some reason, she uses your husband as a punching bag when she can't take it anymore, and that's not okay. But we can still feel bad for her, imagine how unhappy she must so often feel, and try our best to thank her for even the littlest (what looks "little" to us) efforts.

Re: the tie-dye business ... she thought it was private in an almost sacred way. You didn't see how it was private because she had already talked to you about it. I tend to agree that your perception was the more accurate, but once she has calmed down, you need to approach her gently, and see her side as much as possible, even if her side is skewed. It would help if your husband could say to her, "I didn't realize that you didn't want me to talk about the tie-dye business, but I see now that you trusted me to let you tell Lynn about it in your own way and time. I didn't mean to hurt or betray you, and I'm sorry if I did. Can the three of us sit down sometime and talk about ways to make the tie-dye business a reality? That would mean a lot to me." Yes; she needs to learn to apologize to your husband, and he needs to learn to apologize to her too. Even if it seems like she doesn't deserve an apology. She probably still needs it.

Your husband also needs bigger apologies from her, for the really big things she has done that hurt him in a big (and long-lasting) way. Sadly, it may take her a lot of practice at apologizing for "little things" before she's ready to apologize for the really big things. This is going to be a slow process. She and he both need to learn to put themselves in each other's shoes, to get better at doing so, and to do it often. I have a feeling they're not going to get there quickly or easily. Your husband probably feels like it's not worth the bother to try at all, because hey, she'll never treat him better anyway, right? It's going to take him some time to build up enough faith in her to try a little for her.

Re: the fling with her boss ... this sucks, but I'd try to let that one go. First of all, if even in her calm moments she won't admit to more than a few dinners, then there's no solid ground you can use for discussing it further. You'd have to get that DNA test, and you've kind of decided not to. You've kind of decided it doesn't matter too much who the biological father is; your husband is her daughter's father at heart. To me this suggests that it doesn't matter too much whether she had that affair either. After all these years, it's water under the bridge, and her boss is long since out of the picture anyway.

I would try to forgive and let that one go, with or without an apology. That means encouraging your husband to forgive and let it go too. It's too a heavy grudge to bear, it's like carrying a big rock around. It seems to me that if your husband could drop the DNA testing, he could probably drop that rock as well. I mean since we don't know who fathered the child, we can't know whether she had the affair, either. I think it's possible it was just a couple of dinners, but in any case, all the suspicion and uncertainty is just a weight and a poison. I personally wouldn't ask her to apologize for that one. I'd just try to let it go.

Eventually, when she's ready to, she should apologize for each time she ran off with the kids, with an especially contrite apologize for the time when she prevented him from seeing the kids for three years. Those years can never be brought back, so it deserves a very heavy apology, and it will still take your husband a lot of emotional energy to forgive. But that apology, and that forgiveness, are probably both far down the road (and I don't know they'll ever happen but I hope they will).

Eventually, when she's ready to, she should apologize for lying about him and his character, and for constantly exploding on him for five years before she got some medication for her condition. These are things she has admitted to doing, so she should be willing to apologize for them eventually.

I agree that he will probably never trust her 100%. But the three of you can try to work together to find out what she can do to increase his trust just 1% at a time. Even if his trust level is at 0%, there must be little things she can do to raise it up to 1%. She's taking her meds, and she's treating him better; that's a start.

It's all about discovering the little things that can be done to improve the situation just a little at a time. Even if we've combed through 100 little things we're already trying, if we can tease out just one more new little thing, then our effort has not been in vain. Remember, it was a flaw one little O-ring that caused the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. You never know what easily overlooked detail could end up making all the difference in the world. So, let's keep combing through the wreckage, and try to find the one O-ring that can make the next shuttle fly. I can be very patient in this type of project, and I know that you can too. The dream is worth it.
 
Kevin,
That is some very sound and wonderful advice. He and I both have tried to walk away so she can calm down and we have tried to tell her to go relax a bit before we continue the convo because it is not an environment we want the kids to be in. All she does is explode more and says "NO! I'M not going anywhere to calm down." or she will follow whomever tries to walk off to continue exploding...so, yeah kind of difficult doing that lol.

I have sat with her recently in private, and discussed her outbursts to try to understand where she is coming from. She says she feels a lot of times like she is just looking down at herself and watching herself lose control even when there is nothing setting her off or stressing her out. She says she hates that she does it and she knows that no one can stand to be around her because she can't even stand to be around herself. She says she has no idea why she does it because there's not usually anything bothering her when she does it, it just happens.
She has also cried and told me she feels bad that I have to shoulder all the responsibilities of taking care of the kids and cleaning house by myself because she cant handle being around them (they trigger her too) for long

She apologizes to me profusely for it(going off on me when hubby is home)
snce I get caught in the crossfire when she explodes when he is around.

He told me that he married her because she got pregnant the first night they were together (like they met, 6 hours later had sex, found out a few weeks later she was pregnant) so he got together with her and married her because it was the right thing to do. Stayed with her for 5 years because of the kids because, again, it was the right thing to do. He says for the first 6 months she was okay, then her true side came out.

I do sometimes wonder if she was initially supposed to be a one night stand, but because of his character with always trying to do right when he makes mistakes he took it upon himself to face his responsibilities. He's gung ho about taking responsibility. He is also gung ho about keeping promises. He has said that he did promise her when he married her years ago that he would make sure she is taken care of and the kids were taken care of, and he says that he is doing what he can to hold true to that promise.

I can understand somewhat where she is coming from because I have mild bi-polar disorder, but mine have never made me have outbursts I just go from really hyper and bubbly to down and morose then evenly mellow then back up to bubbly again. It doesn't help that I have ADHD lol.

So, yeah she is well aware she is overly dramatic...because I'm one of those people who has no filter and I get a bit flummoxed when trying to figure out how to turn one on between my brain and my mouth lol. I do, however, have some tact with it ..thankfully! LMAO.
So, yes, she knows when she's starting to be pissy, overly dramatic, etc cause I will let her know and sometimes I tell her "I've got to go to the store because I need to get away from you right now. You're being pissy and I can't stand it when you behave that way. You'll get me being pissy, so it's best if I go for an hour" She knows I don't intend to hurt her feelings so it doesn't bug her, she has said she appreciates that i'm honest with her and that i'm not brutal with it.

Ummm...what else... *scrolls back up*

Oh yeah...I do think also she stresses herself out over little things too, so you are right there. For example, today she was supposed to take 175mg of her meds, but only had 150mg because she forgot to get a refill yesterday. She was so paranoid and stressed over not having that 25mg that she got super edgy and pissy. I had to point out to her she was starting to act out, and suggested to her maybe going to her room to read or watch a movie or something will help her calm down. So, I'm aware of her difficulties and I do my best to help her with them.

I'm sorry I jump around so much, I try to answer the questions in order but I have to scroll back a lot because I forget what I was responding to ...having a lot of "ooohhh squirrel!" moments tonight lol.

Anyways, thank you so much for the advice. I will be implementing them and hopefully in time things will slowly get better so the family unit can function at a non-dysfunctional level. :eek:
 
She says she feels a lot of times like she is just looking down at herself and watching herself lose control even when there is nothing setting her off or stressing her out. She says she hates that she does it and she knows that no one can stand to be around her because she can't even stand to be around herself. She says she has no idea why she does it because there's not usually anything bothering her when she does it, it just happens.

My daughter who is now 25 has Borderline Personality Disorder, which is only somewhat controlled by a cocktail of anti-depressants. She sounds a lot like your gf. My daughter however, has been in and out of hospitals and psych wards almost more often than I can count in the past 8 or so years. She abuses drugs and alcohol, and engages in self harm. She has suffered from bulemia, and one of her early hospitalizations was for that. She lost her driver's license years ago for drunk driving. She is impulsive and full of rage at the drop of a hat. She steals from loved ones, she lies and manipulates everyone she can. She has attempted suicide more than once. She is an extremely intense person. I have had to cut ties with her because all she wants is for me to give her money for drugs.

We have often called her disease a "monster" in her head, because she has a very warm loving funny side, and is talented artistically and musically, smart and a fast learner. But she has been unable to complete even a 2 year college and can't hold a job for more than a few months at a time. She is also very pretty. sigh...

She has gotten on disability payments from the government. Even that was difficult because for years she was virtually homeless, bopping around from one psych ward to sober home to crashing at a friend's, and you need a stable address to get on medical aid!

Your gf sounds difficult but not as severely affected as my daughter. Her rages and impulsivity and lies and disappearances, however, ring a bell.

Symptoms of BPD

Borderline personality disorder is a mental disorder that results in four groups of symptoms:

Impaired Emotional Control: excessive, poorly regulated emotional responses, especially anger, that change rapidly;
Harmful Impulsivity: impulsive behaviors that are harmful to you or to others, such as spending sprees, excessive use of alcohol or drugs, self-injurious acts (e.g., cutting), physically aggressive acts and sexual indiscretions;
Impaired Perceptions and Reasoning: suspiciousness, misperceptions, an unstable self-image, a poor sense of your identity, and difficulty in reasoning under stress; and
Disrupted Relationships: tumultuous relationships with a person close to you that vary from extreme fear of abandonment to episodes of excessive anger and the desire to get away from that person.




See if a test like this sounds like your gf.

http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/borderline.htm

http://www.bpddemystified.com/resources/online-test/

There are other online tests as well.

If it sounds right, get a hold of a copy of the book Stop Walking on Eggshells for information on how to deal with a Borderline person in your life. This book has helped me and my ex and his gf learn more about our daughter, what it's like in her head, and how to cope. I recommended it to a friend whose SIL also seems to be Borderline and she also thought it was great.

http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-...634&sr=8-1&keywords=stop+walking+on+eggshells
 
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My daughter who is now 25 has Borderline Personality Disorder, which is only somewhat controlled by a cocktail of anti-depressants. She sounds a lot like your gf.
Symptoms of BPD

Borderline personality disorder is a mental disorder that results in four groups of symptoms:

Impaired Emotional Control: excessive, poorly regulated emotional responses, especially anger, that change rapidly;
Harmful Impulsivity: impulsive behaviors that are harmful to you or to others, such as spending sprees, excessive use of alcohol or drugs, self-injurious acts (e.g., cutting), physically aggressive acts and sexual indiscretions;
Impaired Perceptions and Reasoning: suspiciousness, misperceptions, an unstable self-image, a poor sense of your identity, and difficulty in reasoning under stress; and
Disrupted Relationships: tumultuous relationships with a person close to you that vary from extreme fear of abandonment to episodes of excessive anger and the desire to get away from that person.




See if a test like this sounds like your gf.

http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/borderline.htm

http://www.bpddemystified.com/resources/online-test/

There are other online tests as well.

If it sounds right, get a hold of a copy of the book Stop Walking on Eggshells for information on how to deal with a Borderline person in your life. This book has helped me and my ex and his gf learn more about our daughter, what it's like in her head, and how to cope. I recommended it to a friend whose SIL also seems to be Borderline and she also thought it was great.

http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-...634&sr=8-1&keywords=stop+walking+on+eggshells

I was going to suggest BPD. I have a cousin who remains undiagnosed because she thinks personality disorders are bullshit and that she shouldn't have to change. Her husband eventually left her because he was tired of being her emotional punching bag. And just like your gf, my cousin can seem sane when interacting with anyone else, but her soon to be ex.

Anyway, I just read an article in Psychology Today that indicated dialactical therapy (may not have spelled in right) is a huge help for BPD sufferers - much more effective than medication. You might want to check into Magdyln's links and dialactical therapy.
 
It sounds like you can get her to accept a "time out" if you catch one of her rages in its formative stage. Once the fire builds up to an epic level, she is no longer open to "taking a break" and will even follow the person she is raging at.

As far as that goes, work around it if you can. Perhaps you and husband should both leave for an hour to go shopping, if she will at least refrain from following you into the car.

Next, catch her sometime when she is very calm, and explain that all three of you need to take a break when she cycles into a rage. See if you can get her to make a commitment to let the time out take place, to promise not to follow you around. If she can willingly make that commitment when she's in a calm state, then when she cycles into a rage she'll at least know in her mind that she did make a promise.

Finally, catch her as early as possible in her rage cycles. Try to catch her before it becomes an actual "rage." If she's just beginning to get unreasonable, tell her immediately that "This isn't going to be a good time to talk; let's all cool off and take a break. We'll talk again in about an hour." If you can catch her soon enough, before she cycles too far into the rage, she may still be able to reason enough to agree to "taking a break."

I think it will help if you can find ways to suggest taking a break without "singling her out" (even if she is ground zero). Look for phrases more along the lines of, "We're all getting a little testy here; let's take a rain check and talk again after we've all cooled off." I know that might sound like coddling her if she's the only one that needs to cool off, but you have to keep in mind that when she is in a rage state, she will interpret virtually everything as an attack against her as a person. And then of course she'll "have" to defend herself. So try to use statements that diffuse the appearance of a spotlight being on her. Let it "be" all three of you that needs to calm down. If she can swallow that pill, then the diplomatic sugar coating might be worth it.

It seems obvious enough that she is ashamed about her condition. That shame will morph into defensiveness when she goes into a tantrum. When she is angry, she won't want to be vulnerable. So then she'll start defending her faults. So when she goes into a tantrum, look for any little way to help diffuse her "need" for defensiveness. Try to remind her that the three of you constitute a team, that you all have your faults, and that you're all working together to try to help each other do better and get everyone's needs met.

These ideas and principles won't always suffice. She'll still often freak out so badly that she becomes quite impossible to manage. But if using these ideas and principles helps stave off even one or two of her would-be rages, then we've made some progress.

The biggest thing to keep in mind, I suppose, is that she can be reasoned with when she's calm; she can't be reasoned with when she's angry. That means that each of her calm states is an opportunity to negotiate with her to make commitments about what she'll agree to do during the rage states that are to come. When she's angry, all you have to work with is whatever foundation you were able to lay when she was calm. So take advantage of her calm states; they are golden opportunities.

And brace yourself for the chaos when she loses her cool, because there will be chaos. The first ten times you try to get her to "keep a commitment about taking a break," she may shout, "Screw your stupid commitment!" and continue to follow you around. But when she does calm down again, you sit down with her and ask her to confirm that yes, she should have kept the commitment she made. Maybe after the tenth tantrum, there will finally be one tantrum where she keeps her word (and lets everybody take a break). That's precious little progress, but progress nonetheless. It is (I believe) the beginning of a later stage in her life where she will hold to her commitment nine times out of ten (instead of just one out of ten).

Yah, it will probably take years to really chip away at these problems sufficient to be able to look back and say, "We really have come a long way," and, "We really are happier now."

It's all about figuring out little ways to mitigate the rages. With enough tinkering, the work may reach a point of critical mass and she may actually have a visible break-through. We can always hope, while stubbornly struggling along and doing the tedious work.

I am convinced that if she (with your help) can find healthier ways to cope with her angry feelings, then the chasm between her and your husband will start to close. The long-needed apologies will start to flow. And maybe, just maybe, your husband will start to feel like there's hope for him and her again.
 
Long time no see. Hope you all are doing well. I've been quite busy with the 5 kids and my own school studies. Well, here is an update.

We all managed to sit down and have a conversation. She had been doing much better and hadn't picked a fight for 2 months over the phone. While my hubby was home she only lost it once, but was iffy a few times. thankfully it didn't blow up like it usually does. So, the convo happened and she stated that she knows he is not as happy and joking around or as apt to laugh as freely when she is around. He seems to be unable to truly be him when she is in the room almost like she sucks all the joy from him, but she sees how he has all that with me around. She acknowledged she tends to fuss at him when he jokes around.
She stated she will work harder at not biting his head off at being silly as is his nature. She will work harder at being quiet and listening when he is trying to communicate his feelings and thoughts as I do.

He told her that he knows and feels like she truly does not care for him as she tries to proclaim she does and that she needs to listen to my advice on how to make him feel acknowledged and appreciated.

She stated that she does care for him but it is hard to care more for someone that she knows will not have anything to do with her if I were not in the picture. She states it is easier to care for me because I give her all the things he doesn't and isn't able to give her, i.e. compassion, understanding, "female stuff" as she calls it.

He told her that there is no relationship between him and her. They are friends with benefits but nothing more and that the relationship is between her and I not him and her. He stated he doesn't care if she is with me or wants to be with me, he wants me to be happy and wants her to be happy by having me provide her with everything emotional that he can't provide her. He wants her here cause of the kids and he stated he brought her here cause the kids needed a loving, stable home with at least 1 mom who is capable of caring for them. He will do what he needs to in order to ensure she is took care of and happy to keep her here because the kids need us both and need him. He hopes that she will stay because of her feelings for me.

I told them that I don't want her to go anywhere, yes she makes me frustrated because he does not and I do not deserve the treatment she doles out to us when she gets mad at him and it pushes me away at the moment, because I'm very protective of those I love but mainly those who are treated unfairly for something they didn't do wrong. I would get upset with him if he unfairly jumped on her case for something she didn't do wrong as well. but despite the frustration I do care for and love her and even if those 2 are not going to be together, then I still want to be with her.

He said that is okay with him.
So, I guess it has come down to those 2 are not together beyond a platonic friendship with benefits until she decides she wants to go be on her own or doesn't want to be in a relationship with me anymore at which point that ends. She and I are in a relationship together. So, now we have that sorted out I'm hoping this can work because maybe it is for the best for it to be that way so those 2 can get along and make for a happy home for the kids. They do have examples to see with loving relationship between her and I and a loving relationship between him and I. Hopefully the friendship between those 2 can help them learn to communicate better and resolve disagreements better so the kids can see how to be able to dissolve issues such as that. I know they have her and I as an example of that and him and I(although extremely rare as he and I agree with about 95% of things). I feel to have a 3rd example will help them further to know and learn how to resolve arguments in a manner that is beneficial for all involved.

Long update, I know, but I rarely get much time to be on here to make them more frequent. I'm just glad something was figured out. It may not be what I was hoping it to be, but as long as it will be a way for all to be happy that is all that matters to me.
 
Hi Lynn,

I am really glad to hear of what I thought was a very productive sit-down between the three of you. I know it might seem as if nothing technically changed; however, I think it was cathartic for all three of you (especially your husband and your ex) to express how they feel and be truly candid with each other about where they stood and how important the kids are in the equation. I feel as if the three of you are on the same page now and have a peaceful agreement to try to live together in harmony.

I feel that you should continue to schedule sit-downs, as time and opportunity allow. You never know when issues may pop up here and there and when they do, you'll want to nip them in the bud.

It's great news that the ex is doing better (probably largely thanks to her meds -- and to her for being willing to take them), and has been mostly keeping it together compared to her bad habits in the past.

I think if you can hold steady with the relative peace accord the three of you now formally have, and if you can exercise much patience as months and years go by, you may actually see a gradual melting in the wall of ice between your husband and his ex. I think your husband's trust is hurt so badly that he just can't even think of such a melting right now. But the day may yet come when the relative peace builds up sufficient to soften his heart towards her.

In the meantime, the agreement you currently have seems propitious and workable. You have something of an "emotional V," and a "sexual triad." Which is interesting and also totally fine, because it's something the three of you find adequate for yourselves and each other. It's at least good enough for now, and who knows, maybe it'll get to feeling increasingly comfortable just as it is over time. I personally think that would make a happy enough ending too.

I am glad that all three of you are watching over the kids and watching out for their best interests. It speaks well of the three of you; parenting is such a huge responsibility and must never be forgotten. You are right: A good example is possibly the best of all gifts that you can give to the children.

Anyway, thanks for your update, and I hope you'll keep chiming in whenever you can to let us know how things are coming along.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
lynn,

your picture freaked me out. I thought there was a spider on my laptop! =)
 
lynn,

your picture freaked me out. I thought there was a spider on my laptop! =)

LMAO! It did that to me as well the first time I saw it. I'm petrified of spiders, but I found it hilarious and wanted to give others the hilarity of nearly smacking their laptops as I did lol.



Kevin, thank you for the reply. I'm glad someone realizes that the kids are important, just as much as we realize it. That's why I can't understand why people can't sacrifice their petty differences or selfishness in order to give their kids the best they can. It's like a lot of people fail to realize that to cultivate their minds, hearts, spirits, and beings is not important. But it is important, simply because 1. our children deserve to know happiness and 2. they are our future and our legacy. If we can't make changes to our world or society ourselves, then why not give our kids the tools to be able to do so themselves. Even if it isn't changed right away, they pass their knowledge on to their children and maybe that generation can know better peace, acceptance, and humanitarianism amongst our fellow humans than we currently have. We may never become a world utopia, but any positive steps is worth it.
 
Ah, but y'see, I fervently believe in that far-off utopia. Alas it's much too far off for me to see it in my day, but you're 100% right in saying that passing good memes/examples down to your kids is an invaluable service, both to the kids themselves, and to humanity as a whole.

As to your chilling avatar ... haha, ya had me going for a moment too! Sometimes I still get tricked again when I heven't looked at it for awhile.

Naturally my first thought is, "Oh no, that looks like the body of a brown recluse" ... but then I think, "Ah wait, brown recluses actually have a white or off-white body, not a black body. And they're not New Mexico natives, so I'm being silly."

Spiders: so fascinating and yet so creepy. That's my view of them anywayz. :)

Cheers,
Kevin T.
 
Spiders: so fascinating and yet so creepy. That's my view of them anywayz. :)

I would have to agree. in fact, a few months ago, maybe in September during the seahawks game, a giant house spider walked through a crowd of toddlers at our house. we captured it, and I kept it as a pet. I fed it flies and cleaned its jar. took it to a arachnologist to have it identified as a European house spider. I named it Olivia but later was changed to oliver as it was a male. im still sad.

that's my story of a spider...not the first being caught and treated like a pet. lol
 
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