Marginalization of young polys

I agree - my attempt to bring up the topic was, perhaps, futile, but I had hoped that some good would come of it.

I very much support the idea of people creating the spaces in which they feel comfortable to talk, discuss, and solve problems, because that's what this sort of thing is about, really, isn't it?

I was just trying to make one small step (and I agree, Ceoli, not the only one necessary) to try to mend any sort of wall which may be there. The first step is talking about it, and exchanging views. Maybe this is the wrong place for that, but I don't know of a better one.
 
IOW, if they feel so marginalized, chances are they've already left the forum and aren't here to see the thread.

I guess, then, it comes down to whether it matters to a group whether or not these people are staying. Generally, if the goal is to create an *inclusive* community, it's worth examining the issue. If not, then I suppose it doesn't matter.

As for starting one's own forum because one feels marginalized, it seems to perpetuate the problem. Although I will say, at least it doesn't feel like when the men come into the women's centre and say all sarcastically, "Why isn't there a MEN's centre?? We have issues too, you know" and I'm like "well what, do you need the women to start one for you??"

So I'm curious. How is having a women's center not self-marginalizing, but designing an online community to discuss the needs of a certain group of people where there doesn't seem to be the space to discuss such things is self-marginalizing.

To put another spin on this, is the fact that we have a forum that is specialized and intended to discuss poly issues mean that we are self-marginalizing as poly people? Why don't we talk about our relationship issues in all the other romance forums that exist on the net? Why set ourselves apart in this forum and perpetuate the problem?
 
I guess, then, it comes down to whether it matters to a group whether or not these people are staying. Generally, if the goal is to create an *inclusive* community, it's worth examining the issue. If not, then I suppose it doesn't matter.
Exactly, which was what I was trying to do by starting this thread and not making it about some specific forum, but a much more general discussion. So far I'm not sure that we are making any progress and you're right, Ceoli, maybe this isn't the right place, because those that are truly marginalized by this forum have already left. Hard to know how to reach out to those people though - I assumed that this was one of the more open poly forums around - it has certainly seemed so based on my own impressions and feedback that I have got. If you have a better suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it.


So I'm curious. How is having a women's center not self-marginalizing, but designing an online community to discuss the needs of a certain group of people where there doesn't seem to be the space to discuss such things is self-marginalizing.
I agree with you completely - either both are, or both are not - can't have it both ways. One shouldn't criticise one resource for doing something that another resource does, simply because the "line" drawn is or isn't one that one agrees with.

To put another spin on this, is the fact that we have a forum that is specialized and intended to discuss poly issues mean that we are self-marginalizing as poly people? Why don't we talk about our relationship issues in all the other romance forums that exist on the net? Why set ourselves apart in this forum and perpetuate the problem?
I think people do - I know that poly topics come up on dating fora, and relationship fora. The reception they get is often a tad "rough", and I would very much like there to be more tolerance in general. But we live in a rough world, and sometimes this necessitates creating the "niches". I look forward to a day where such niches aren't necessary, but I fear that we are a long way off this.

I had hoped that creating a dialogue here would go a small way to encouraging cross-generational poly folk to air whatever discomforts they have, in order to start the work of improving communications.
 
Exactly, which was what I was trying to do by starting this thread and not making it about some specific forum, but a much more general discussion. So far I'm not sure that we are making any progress and you're right, Ceoli, maybe this isn't the right place, because those that are truly marginalized by this forum have already left. Hard to know how to reach out to those people though - I assumed that this was one of the more open poly forums around - it has certainly seemed so based on my own impressions and feedback that I have got. If you have a better suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it.


First, I would suggest that putting responsibility on a marginalized group to somehow "un-marginalize" themselves by teaching everyone else how not to marginalize them tends not to work. I've found that the best way to succeed in being more inclusive is for the dominant group to *first* do some hard self-examination.

Next, if I was doing a training on this, I would ask the participants to to make a list of all of their assumptions and perceptions of people who are young and poly. This is often a hard thing to accomplish because people can be very unwilling to admit what assumptions they carry (even to themselves). This is a hard process that has to involve some brutal honesty.

Then we'd examine how those assumptions we make (whether correct or incorrect) manifest in what we say or what culture is created in the larger group.

Those are just some first steps.

But we live in a rough world, and sometimes this necessitates creating the "niches". I look forward to a day where such niches aren't necessary, but I fear that we are a long way off this.

Niches are not always a bad thing. People are diverse and have diverse needs and there's nothing wrong with gathering together around common needs or tastes or identities and to celebrate that. However, when a community that contains a broad range of identities makes that space welcoming to some identities and not to others, or somehow operates with incorrect assumptions about the identities of others, then groups are created out of a need for space to just be heard rather than a desire to gather and celebrate their identities. In that case, there are larger, less healthy things going on in that community.
 
Um yeah, I completely disagree with the negative tone in this statement.
Ok - disagreement is good because it fuels conversations.
If the tone is 'negative' that might be a misperception of the intent - but even that says something. The tone was intended to be one of warning & alarm. A call to caution and really thinking things through.

redsirenn; said:
I think of it more along the lines of how you find your friends and include them in your group. There certainly are traits and characteristics these friends must have, and i hope people do have those standards... I wouldn't be friends with just anybody, and they don't "get in" unless they fit those criteria.

My emphasis in the above quote............
I think this approach is pretty common. Now I'm trying to filter out what you are really 'saying' here vs how you phrased it. Otherwise, I think you could look at this as a perfect example of exactly the point & concern I was raising. Do you not see an "exclusionary" approach here ?
You have "expectations" in order to connect to you. The rules are set. it's all been figured out. There's a VERY distinct undertone of 'us' vs 'them'. And this is the way of the world for large numbers of people. And we have what we have.


; said:
I just want a "community" of like minded individuals that fit different criteria. people I can talk to about issues that affect me more than someone 20 years my senior!
More substance for the above discussion..........
Just using your example text because you did (the age thing), why would you assume better understanding of a world issue - or even personal one - from someone of a particular age group ? Or feel you wouldn't be heard ?
But this concept applies to any range of perceived 'differences'. It could be age, cultural background, social status/power, geography, you name it. By isolating ourselves into pockets of similarity only, we're depriving not only ourselves, but each other of the wisdom and experiences that others have lived. It's building walls, not connections.
I have, for example, quite a number of "friends". We see eye-to-eye on some things. On others we don't. But I value their opinions and experiences as they do mine and we 'borrow' insights from each other as the situation dictates. Balance. Growth. Connection.


; said:
Yes, sometimes the age gap is not important... but is DOES exist. and to ignore that fact and the differences between people is naive. It is OK too see the differences, so long as you understand them and don't criticize them - that you even appreciate them from time to time.

Nothing wrong with criticism ! As long as you have relative experience/insights to come with it to substantiate your point. Remember, once upon a time the earth was flat. And the sun revolved around it.
We (had) have reason to question and eventually criticize those views. But by locking yourself in the basement and never looking through the telescope, you may indeed come out to discover one day that the world has changed around you and indeed, you find yourself 'marginalized' - and even angry. And from there..............
Well - you fill in the rest.

GS

It is not uncommon for online forum communities to require questions when joining. The biggest purpose of such practices is to weed out spammers, who usually won't bother to spam a board if they have to do that much to join it. The other purpose of it is to be INTENTIONAL about the kind of community that's being build on that specific forum.

Again, that is NOT the same as being exclusive.


All true and when I posted it was only in response to two particular posts I'd seen. If there's more 'background' I'm just ignorant of it. My fears were only triggered by what appeared on the surface as a 'pulling away' - i.e. exclusion in general over what otherwise would be a common topic - 'polyamory'.
If indeed, as Ciel (and you ?) has since pointed out, the intent was to raise awareness of some people who were feeling unheard or un-respected or maybe not even understood, then I think that would be an awesome thing to investigate.
Like most others here, I/we haven't ever witnessed 'age' being any factor what-so-ever in the poly world so personally I'd love to hear any/all of the concerns and examples anyone could offer to substantiate those perceptions.
If that's the intent, and direction this thread takes - or if it takes yet another forum intended to specifically address those concerns - wonderful !
And to clarify more, why yes there's an obvious need to separate topics & materials. You don't want to encourage car repair discussions in the same conversation as you're discussing veterinary practice - but that doesn't seem to be what we're doing here.

Anyway......be interesting to see what becomes of this !

GS

We have a lot of 30-somethings in our group, and several 20-somethings. They seem to be quite comfortable mixing and I don't sense any divide.

This is why I want to know more about this, so that we don't fall into the trap of biasing things against the younger demographic.

Oh - and is this possibly more about 'connecting' (meeting/dating etc) than about any differences in approach, philosophy or practicality that get into all the long and wonderful discussions we seem to ?

If it's really just all about 'meeting' potential partners and there's a sentiment that anyone over 35 is outside consideration - well that's fine. That seems a common boundary line that's drawn - if you're under 18 you're not legal and if over 35 you're over the hill. :) Each to their own - right.

Maybe what's needed is something more like the 'dating' sites but targeted specifically at people that are poly inclined. If such a thing exists I'm not personally aware of it. Good project for someone to take on ?
I just don't know if the numbers are there at this point. In any age group.

GS
 
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Although I will say, at least it doesn't feel like when the men come into the women's centre and say all sarcastically, "Why isn't there a MEN's centre?? We have issues too, you know" and I'm like "well what, do you need the women to start one for you??"

Snicker. This.

:D

I personally dont feel marginalised and again probably wouldnt frequent this forum if I did. I sought out a place that was non-marginalised and open minded. And indeed one of the reasons i searched out polyamory too, as that seems to me an open-minded or at least open-people idea. :)

I actually only feel marginalised in my own relgion not in polyamory threads or communities, and i dont frequent BDSM places so i wouldnt know about that. But that is because most people in my religion are of the oppinion that is the only way to happiness and fufillment.
 
nice point LR. thanks.;)

Big hugs. I think that many people just cna't find common ground due to one of them being immature emotionally or mentally and while that CAN be an age thing-it isn't always. :)

Ironically I RARELY get guessed my age when I'm out and about-in fact people are stunned to find out I have a 13 year old and I've seen people's eyes about pop out when they find out I also have an 18 year old.
But on the other hand, those same people are forever telling me, wow you are so amazingly intuitive and aware, it's like your ancient. (HUH?)

I think it's a matter of holding on to your youth as you age. Some people are so rushed to "grow up and move on" that they forget that they can mature and still be young at heart too.

FYI-Redsiren, I love reading your posts and when you post I often talk about the things you say with Maca, so in some way through this silly internet I feel we may have things in common too. ;)
 
Hello peeps,

I hear ya. All of these posts have very valid points in them.

In response to those that feel marginalized - yes, I feel like one of them. Not on here so much, I enjoy and get alot of great ideas/ thoughts via you all, regardless of age. But, when it comes down to MEETING people, it is a much different story. Sure - I can continue having the same conversations I have on here with any age group. But what about other things, other interests, what about the divide I DO FEEL that simply cannot be erased? This is a post from a favorite blog of mine that states the same thing really well: "Community"

And -of COURSE I choose my friends carefully. There are alot of people that don't get to know my thoughts on life and my deepest fears and joys. This is excluding alot of folks. I am ok with that. In fact, I think it is healthy. And If you knew me, you would see that although I do choose carefully I have more genuine BEST friends than anyone I have ever met. They are my sisters and brothers and we protect each other. This is because I was choosy.

So - I would LOVE to have another place to go, where I felt I fit in more. Not as an exclusion to the older poly groups, but as an addition to them. REALLY REALLY badly, I want this.

And Thanks again LR -
That gave me some warm fuzzies inside :D
 
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I agree - my attempt to bring up the topic was, perhaps, futile, but I had hoped that some good would come of it.

I very much support the idea of people creating the spaces in which they feel comfortable to talk, discuss, and solve problems, because that's what this sort of thing is about, really, isn't it?

I was just trying to make one small step (and I agree, Ceoli, not the only one necessary) to try to mend any sort of wall which may be there. The first step is talking about it, and exchanging views. Maybe this is the wrong place for that, but I don't know of a better one.

I don't think it's futile. You sensed that there may have been a subset of the poly community that may have been feeling left out, and you sought to remedy the situation.

As far as the online community goes, I don't see a problem. I haven't checked out any of the poly groups for young people, and frankly I don't feel the need to.

Someone said something about the experience gained by older people having been through the trenches, and I definitely value the insight that their experience has given them. I happen to be one of the lucky few who can learn from the mistakes of others (I've never pissed on a fence, I hear it really f'ing hurts though). I just don't feel like I could access that wealth of knowledge from a bunch of 20-somethings, all of us stumbling about in the dark, repeating mistakes that others could have warned us about if we'd have bothered to hang out with them and listen to their advice.

My city is too small to have a poly community that I can find. There's a swingers club, and I'm currently sniffing that out to see if there are any poly people hiding out there, looking for something close to identify with. So far, no dice. So I can only speak to the non-marginalization of the online community, and in this one, I have found none.
 
Someone said something about the experience gained by older people having been through the trenches, and I definitely value the insight that their experience has given them. I happen to be one of the lucky few who can learn from the mistakes of others (I've never pissed on a fence, I hear it really f'ing hurts though). I just don't feel like I could access that wealth of knowledge from a bunch of 20-somethings, all of us stumbling about in the dark, repeating mistakes that others could have warned us about if we'd have bothered to hang out with them and listen to their advice.


This is certainly true and I very much value what intergenerational communities can offer, particularly when it comes to sharing experiences and hard learned lessons. I'm also in the camp of those who will GLADLY learn from the mistakes of others. However, I've found that intergenerational communities work best when the learning goes both ways. I've known quite a few wise 20-somethings in my day and younger generations tend to see things that might have been considered outrageous back in the day as "normal" in these times. It is always important to value that different perspective.

But even then, sometimes it's just good to seek support from a group of peers that share many of the same perspectives that someone might have.
 
Prove it

The implication of this thread that TNG groups are being formed in response to marginalization within the "general" community seems a bit narrow and uninformed in view. Further I did not see such a claim on the CPN TNG website.

I do find the assessment of young people and their experiences within this thread very interesting and links between these valuations and the creation of TNG groups are not hard to miss.

First, I would suggest that putting responsibility on a marginalized group to somehow "un-marginalize" themselves by teaching everyone else how not to marginalize them tends not to work. I've found that the best way to succeed in being more inclusive is for the dominant group to *first* do some hard self-examination.

It is disconcerting that there seems to be a push here for those who feel their needs are not being met through one medium or another within the poly community to prove that there is an actual issue. Criticism is also being launched at those who are creating spaces that fit their needs as others have done. How is this different from any other poly group being started? What is the bias here?

Next, if I was doing a training on this, I would ask the participants to to make a list of all of their assumptions and perceptions of people who are young and poly. This is often a hard thing to accomplish because people can be very unwilling to admit what assumptions they carry (even to themselves). This is a hard process that has to involve some brutal honesty.

It is a hard thing to accomplish. I've seen poly groups unwilling to examine long held stereotypes and assumptions about various groups of poly people (and people generally). In the midst of that attitude seeking to open the group to include a large variety of polyamorous people is difficult because it isn't believed that there is a need backed by whatever prejudice. I am not sure if this is what some describe as "being set in their ways."

Niches are not always a bad thing. People are diverse and have diverse needs and there's nothing wrong with gathering together around common needs or tastes or identities and to celebrate that. However, when a community that contains a broad range of identities makes that space welcoming to some identities and not to others, or somehow operates with incorrect assumptions about the identities of others, then groups are created out of a need for space to just be heard rather than a desire to gather and celebrate their identities. In that case, there are larger, less healthy things going on in that community.

Indeed and it's actually been stated on this forum that hey, being inclusive to all polyamorous people is not realistic and that's the end of the story. Everyone's needs will not be met in any given group.

So I'm surprised that some who have stated those very opinions now seem baffled by and are now negatively characterizing groups aimed at particular groups of poly people who are trying to address needs not being met elsewhere.

I've found in issues of marginalization, it's generally more useful to talk to the people who *aren't* at the table rather than the people who who do feel included.

So it might be useful to ask the question, "How can we bring more people to the table to talk about it?"

I agree. The response I am seeing to this is the rather circular "well I can't figure it out unless you show me." A rationale that isn't true and again is not outreach or a meeting in a middle, rather it is a "you have to come to me" approach.

I used to be a very active member of my city's BDSM "community" and I found exactly the cliquism GS was talking about. They also had an online forum, and I always found that any new people who didn't meet their criteria was ostracised and made to feel like a freak. That's exactly what you don't need when you're coming out of the closet and you already feel like a weirdo.

You describe nearly to the letter a past experience I had with one particular polyamory forum in New York State. Going back to the concept of self examination, and the technique of listing assumptions and stereotypes and seeking to include, there is no real solution when the clique doesn't actually want to include different kinds of poly people and are unwilling to examine challenges to long held assumptions. Those who practice polyamory differently from their version of polyamory are just plum out of luck.

I do wonder though. If polys should accept that the groups available don't meet their needs (because inclusiveness for all polys isn't realistic) and creating groups that do meet their needs is a negative and self-marginalizing, what kind of atmospheres are being suggested for these polyamorous folk? And what light does this place those who have created poly groups of varied perspectives?

I sought out a place that was non-marginalised and open minded. And indeed one of the reasons i searched out polyamory too, as that seems to me an open-minded or at least open-people idea. :)

I felt similarly. But I realize that not all poly people are open-people. Some are majorly closed and even prejudiced. There are a myriad of people who practice polyamory with all the same flaws as anyone else. It is just one aspect that determines compatibility even as friends.

Sometimes people must create the open spaces they wish to see in the world when they do not exist.

~Raven~
 
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The implication of this thread that TNG groups are being formed in response to marginalization within the "general" community seems a bit narrow and uninformed in view. Further I did not see such a claim on the CPN TNG website.

I do find the assessment of young people and their experiences within this thread very interesting and links between these valuations and the creation of TNG groups are not hard to miss.



My apologies for that. I had said in the other thread that the group was a place for people who may feel marginalized in other poly communities as a response to the implication that it was a group forming to create an exclusive small community and narrow dating pool. It really wasn't telling the whole story.

However, I have known people in various poly communities that have felt marginalized or not taken seriously because of their age and the assumptions that people make about them because of it.
 
My apologies for that. I had said in the other thread that the group was a place for people who may feel marginalized in other poly communities as a response to the implication that it was a group forming to create an exclusive small community and narrow dating pool. It really wasn't telling the whole story.

However, I have known people in various poly communities that have felt marginalized or not taken seriously because of their age and the assumptions that people make about them because of it.

I'll change a little something in what I wrote:

"The implication of this thread that TNG groups are being formed solely in response to marginalization within the "general" community seems a bit narrow and uninformed in view. Further I did not see such a claim on the CPN TNG website."

This is why I said it was narrow and uninformed. And I wasn't referring to any assertion you made. I agreed with everything you stated. :)

As for the implication about exclusive groups, I find many of those who make such accusations along with the birds that flock with them usually commit the actions they accuse others of frequently. It's called hypocrisy and smoke-screening.

I also agree with the last part of what you said here. This thread is riddled with comments in regards to young people that I am not sure could be construed as unbiased.

~Raven~
 
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I just wanted to add something that I thought of while biking...

It really isn't that I feel "marginalized". More so, that I want something different in addition to...


RS
 
I am 30 and find that the only problem I have with my local group is that they meet once a month on mondays and I work everyday during the week and can't make it.
I don't feel marginalized by my age. Mostly I feel different because I am straight, and so is my wife. I have talked to a few females in the area that are poly and they want to have nothing to do with me. They told me if my wife was bi it would be different. But my age has not been an issue.
 
I've felt marginalized by both the poly and "mainstream" communities because of my age. Many mono folk think I'm in "a phase" or "testing the waters". I've even had one person say that "You're not really poly, you're just... not sure what it is you want".

I've also felt marginalized by the older poly communities because my idea of healthy relationships don't include "families" and children, both things credited to me being "young and naive" apparently. Also, partly because my idea "structure" seems to be evolving. Specifically, I feel as if I'm moving away from the "primary/secondary" structure and some people seem to think this evolution is indicative of being... whatever it is they think it is.
 
I just wanted to add something that I thought of while biking...

It really isn't that I feel "marginalized". More so, that I want something different in addition to...


RS

I have to say that I find this a pretty profound statement. In addition to. I think it's a rather expansive and open way to view the world.

In addition to.

I will not denigrate anyone who is marginalized or place the blame of their marginalization ("the rape victim is to blame" mentality) on them. It is as valid a reason as any to jump into action addressing it in many ways such as starting groups.

However, there are people of all kinds who would like to connect with other people who share similarities and differences, experiences and perspectives on life.

In this case young polys wish to do the same. It may be in addition to existing groups they feel comfortable with or it may not because there aren't groups they feel comfortable with. What would be the purpose of begrudging young polys' right to seek and create that which meets their needs?

~Raven~
 
redsiren-

I choose my friends carefully as well. I socialize with many people, but I am VERY choosy about who I let "all the way in" with me.
My closest friends have been around 31 years, 21 years and 17 years respectively. They are the ones who know my whole me.
Heck-even Maca who I started dating 11 years ago, and married 10 years ago, I've known for 21 years. :)

It's too bad you feel like you don't have someplace that fits you-but I do understand it. I don't know that it's an age thing so much (at least not for me) but I know outside of those 3, only one of whom is "poly", one is mono in a poly relationship and the other who knows right now... there isn't really anyone I feel completely comfortable and THAT sucks. So I certainly feel for you.

I hope you DO find a community you feel like you "fit" in!
 
I've also felt marginalized by the older poly communities because my idea of healthy relationships don't include "families" and children, both things credited to me being "young and naive" apparently.
I don't want a "family" or children either, but I don't think that anyone blames it on my youth or naivete (they probably find some other put-down). :)

See, I think that just because someone is poly doesn't mean that they have managed to shrug off all the shrouds of conventionalism - they still expect people to want certain specific things at certain points in their lives and, when you don't want that, tend to put you down in sometimes subtle, sometimes very obvious ways. I have hit similar "straight-laced" thinking as well, and I think that it is a great shame.

It's too bad you feel like you don't have someplace that fits you-but I do understand it.
...
I hope you DO find a community you feel like you "fit" in!
I echo that sentiment. There are many poly communities and online groups out there, each with their own styles of leadership and "feel" - I personally think that that is a great idea, because it most definitely isn't a case of "one size fits all". I also hope that you can find one where you feel you "fit" - but remember (and this is advice that I have given others) - if you can't find one that fits, chances are you are not alone, and starting one that you do feel you fit in with may well create a whole new vibrant community.

Luckily we don't have to "pick one" - we can join in with and take part in as many or as few online communities as we choose, taking a little from one, and a little from another, gaining benefit from what each one has to offer.
 
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Someone said something about the experience gained by older people having been through the trenches, and I definitely value the insight that their experience has given them. I happen to be one of the lucky few who can learn from the mistakes of others (I've never pissed on a fence, I hear it really f'ing hurts though). I just don't feel like I could access that wealth of knowledge from a bunch of 20-somethings, all of us stumbling about in the dark, repeating mistakes that others could have warned us about if we'd have bothered to hang out with them and listen to their advice.

Good outlook. Not everyone's but very good one. :) I like what I learn from the "younger crowd" as much as what I learn from the "older crowd" (yeah, there are actually people older then me) ;)

My dad would commend you on not being a "fence pisser". I certainly was when I was younger-it sucks. It's SO much easier to learn from OTHER people's mistakes!
 
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