If you can't say anything nice....

StudentofLife

New member
That phrase, "If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all." is something I noticed used here for the first time in my reading. It's a rough one for me to read, and it brings up a question or two.
I grew up in a family where this phrase was The Law. Don't ever say anything about my parent's terrible marriage, or how they'd go weeks without speaking to each other, and my father would go months without speaking to his kids. Later, it was The Law about my mother's severe hoarding issues, which continue to this day. Don't ever talk about how she values piles of old newspapers more than she does her own children and grandchildren, who can't visit her because there is literally not one place to sit in her home. Pretend everything is fine, all the time. Stop speaking entirely if you have to, that's better than ever saying anything that might make anyone else upset.
My question is how can someone learn these communication skills necessary to have the types of relationships a lot of you have? Today I tried to communicate something to someone I love, something I knew would upset them, something "Not Nice". It's taken me a year and a half to be able to even bring the topic up. I can't help but feel that this is not only ridiculous, but something that would doom a poly relationship to failure.
I spent hours yesterday looking for something that functions like this forum but is dedicated to the topic of communication in relationships. I didn't find anything that looked like it would help. Does such a forum exist?
Where did you learn to communicate? Have any of you had to overcome entire lifetimes of conditioning in order to have the type of love in your life that you want?:confused:
 
Passive or Courteous

Have any of you had to overcome entire lifetimes of conditioning in order to have the type of love in your life that you want?:confused:

"if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is something I've heard in my life, for sure. My parents had the old (current?) approach to parenting; treating us like we were a chore to take care of, and that controlling us was more important by far than helping us grow into healthy adults.

Unfortunately what I seem to have learned from this is that silence is courteous. That, speaking up should only happen when it is absolutely necessary. Generally this means that when I communicate it is well after the point when it could be done constructively. This is being passive and then explosive... which if you've been following along at home is a very infective way to relate to people.

"be assertive, and keep in mind your audience" or something like it is a mantra would have much rather learned in my formative years. This approach ensures that little issues don't become big issues (at least not because it was never discussed) and that tone, detail, and volume are customized for the person I'm talking to.

Having said that though, I do still see that "if you don't have anything nice.." has a place in relating to people. This is the phrase I think of when I hear people whine on and on about their parents or spouses (or whatever) at a party. This idea that everyone is thrilled to hear them pat themselves on the back about how shitty their lives are. That's not really the scenario we are talking about here, I just wanted to clarify that I don't think the phrase needs to be thrown out all together, but that it is more of a time and place issue.
 
"If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all."

The word "nice" also means "accurate." Most people go with the definition of "nice" that is "pleasant" or "agreeable." But the word "nice" here to me is for "accurate" -- accuracy in your manners.

So this phrase used as a reminder to others on their manners -- is about "time and place." More specifically, THE HOW and WHEN of your communication. Not the TOPIC of conversation. More like...

"If you can't say anything accurate for this time/place don't say anything at all."

"Is this the time? Is this the place?" I use with my kid rather than "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" because I find that is clearer for her as she learns her manners skills in childhood.

I do not want to shut her up and not have any communication at all. That will not serve her as an adult. But, time and place matters. So... just PAUSE it there, kid. If at this time you cannot contribute accurately to the conversation (ex: kid stuff smack in the middle of big adult conversation about mortgages) hold on, and we'll get to yours in a bit. (She struggles with interruptions right now too -- waiting for the moment to add to conversation. Young kid.)

There are times where difficult topics MUST be broached. You cannot ignore the times where it is time to apply conflict resolution skills. Ignoring things that need addressing is not "nice-accurate." Ignoring things can lead to bigger problems!

My question is how can someone learn these communication skills necessary to have the types of relationships a lot of you have?

Communicate with people and learn what works and doesn't work from direct experience/observation. Take a class, read books.

I think I communicate well with my real life people but I'm still taking a local Non-violent communication class with spouse.

Could look up communication things online -- here is one example. Sometimes business models, while geared toward business communication sometimes really spell it out well. Communication styles, the verbal, the paraverbal, etc.

I spent hours yesterday looking for something that functions like this forum but is dedicated to the topic of communication in relationships. I didn't find anything that looked like it would help. Does such a forum exist?

Yes. I don't know about other systems but there's lots for NVC.

Where did you learn to communicate?

At home. While my parents did not have all the skills to teach and they were not great at conflict resolution skills, they did teach manners, ettiquette, polite conversation, etc.

Then more in real life. Certainly at college -- it was required to take at least the one oral communications class for GE's.

Then more in personal growth stuff -- books, classes, etc.

Have any of you had to overcome entire lifetimes of conditioning in order to have the type of love in your life that you want?

Not my experience. At least not to that implied degree. :confused:

My own home life didn't cut off all communication. It wasn't perfect and it isn't how I raise my own kid -- but neither was it like yours sounds.

Part of growing older is to reconcile the believes and teachings of childhood with the beliefs of adulthood. We all come with our peculiar mixture of "baggage" -- nobody is baggage free. But taking the time to reflect and sort and cast off things that no longer serve one well -- beliefs, habits, attitudes, etc -- helps one travel light in Life's Journey.

HTH!
Galagirl
 
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You're absolutely right. Silence was seen as being courteous, but when it's a rage-filled ominous silence, the quiet before the storm, it goes from polite to nerve-wracking. And I believe in a lot of cases, it might turn implosive rather than explosive, leading to depression, and self-numbing behaviors on order to silence the anger that can't be expressed.
I also agree with you that the flip side is learn when to use it. There's a world of difference between people who use others as one gigantic ear to dump their shit into at completely inappropriate times, and people in relationships struggling to improve but without the tools to do so. In the first scenario, silence would in fact be golden. In the second, the gold has turned to dross.
It also makes me wonder if gender plays into it. Assertive communication may have been more encouraged (or tolerated?) for males in my generation than for females.
Interesting thoughts for me. Thank you, Marcus.
 
Ignoring things can lead to bigger problems!


Sometimes business models, while geared toward business communication sometimes really spell it out well. Communication styles, the verbal, the paraverbal, etc.



Yes. I don't know about other systems but there's lots for NVC.



Part of growing older is to reconcile the believes and teachings of childhood with the beliefs of adulthood. We all come with our peculiar mixture of "baggage" -- nobody is baggage free. But taking the time to reflect and sort and cast off things that no longer serve one well -- beliefs, habits, attitudes, etc -- helps one travel light in Life's Journey.

HTH!
Galagirl

Thank you, GalaGirl. I did look online, but had mistakenly thought the business sites would not be of use. I will look again.
I have never heard of non-violent communication, but will also spend some time trying to learn about that.
It's the reconciling you bring up that I struggle with. I know intellectually that communication needs to happen, but it feels "wrong" to actually try to speak if there seems to be a chance my words will cause anxiety. It's incredibly frustrating. One of my friends recently told me, "I know you understand, you just don't believe".
I so appreciate your taking the time to give me some new directions to look into.:)
 
...it feels "wrong" to actually try to speak if there seems to be a chance my words will cause anxiety.

Anxiety for who? You? Or the other guy you are talking to?

Galagirl
 
Sorry to have been unclear. I meant if my words will cause anxiety for the person listening to me. My baggage is all about not upsetting someone else by telling them things they don't want to hear. I was raised to stuff my own feelings/needs as far down as necessary in order to not upset anyone else around me.
And maybe I am being too literal here, but just for the record, I am a woman, in a relationship with another woman. There are no guys involved, at this time. :)
 
I meant if my words will cause anxiety for the person listening to me. My baggage is all about not upsetting someone else by telling them things they don't want to hear. I was raised to stuff my own feelings/needs as far down as necessary in order to not upset anyone else around me.

This is similar to the way I was raised. My mother was (and still can be) very non-confrontational, so the atmosphere around our house was generally "Don't say/do anything to upset Dad!" My reaction, though, was to say "Fuck it" to tiptoeing on eggshells around anyone. Through my 20's if I wanted to say it, I said it. It's only now in my mid-30's that I'm learning to walk that "appropriateness" line, and I still struggle with determining IF this is the right time for bringing up something negative (Do we have the time and, if needed, privacy to deal with this right now? Do they have the emotional resources to deal with this right now? WHY DO I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ALL THIS, WHY CAN'T I JUST SAY WHAT I WANT??) and I, too, deal with feelings of guilt if I think what I'm going to say will upset someone else. Logically I know that, guilt or not, it needs to be addressed. But I also don't yet know how to let someone know ahead of time that I have something more serious that I want to discuss without making them anxious about the upcoming conversation. Nor do I want to spring it on them with no warning.

So, really, this was a really long-winded way of saying I don't have any concrete ways to help you, as I'm still figuring this out myself, but I understand where you're coming from, I sympathize, and I wish you luck!
 
I meant if my words will cause anxiety for the person listening to me. My baggage is all about not upsetting someone else by telling them things they don't want to hear. I was raised to stuff my own feelings/needs as far down as necessary in order to not upset anyone else around me.

If that is reframed as

I worry my words will cause anxiety for the person listening to me because _____?

What would you put there in the blank?

Galagirl
 
If that is reframed as

I worry my words will cause anxiety for the person listening to me because _____?

What would you put there in the blank?

Galagirl


I worry my words will cause anxiety for the person listening to me because the stability and support of our relationship are a vital part of her ability to deal with her serious health issues. For her to be told that relationship is in crisis might cause her to feel added stress, anxiety, and fear. She is already struggling to get through each day, and may not have the stamina to cope with any added pressure without her health degrading further. Therefore, I worry that my words could literally cause damage to the already fragile health of someone I love deeply.


:(
 
I still struggle with determining IF this is the right time for bringing up something negative (Do we have the time and, if needed, privacy to deal with this right now? Do they have the emotional resources to deal with this right now?


Thank you so much. That is exactly what goes through my mind, and trying to balance the need for communication against their ability to absorb and cope with a stressful issue.
Sometimes it seems as though relieving your own stress by adding to someone else's burden is sheer selfishness instead of maturity. I've lost count of how many posts I've read here about how someone is sturggling because their partner told them a truth about the relationship that they didn't want to hear.
 
I occasionally use that phrase with the 5 year old. Becuase she gets on a whiney complaint train that is just about complaining.

On the other hand-our general rule at home is like galagirl said, time and place.
There is a time and place (and method) for addressing and discussing topics that aren't "happy/friendly/nice" etc.

There is a book called nonviolent communication.
ALso-check your local college for a class on "interpersonal communication" and see what they list as the curriculum. You may find they have a book or two on the topic. You can usually find those books at Amazon.
Also-Barnes and NOble tends to carry a lot of books that are "educational" so if you go to their website and type in communication or some such-you may find some things. Also-you can go to their stores and ask them where they would have something like that.

I find that using the word "interpersonal" in front of communication tends to help get to what is useful in search engines. And the business models are OFTEN VERY helpful!
They do a great job promoting communication in the classes aimed for employees. :)
 
Is your relationship to your girlfriend a one-sided one? Like patient-caregiver?

Because with my Alzheimer dad, that's part of the deal now. One sided. He CANNOT handle certain things and cope. And to expect him to is not realistic. As caregiver mom just no longer expects to have a healthy two-way dynamic. Neither do I.

Another type of needed "one sided" relationship is that of parent-baby. The parents KNOWS they are dealing with another human being who cannot realistically be expected to play ball in a health two-way-street thing because the child is underage... maybe not even able to talk at all yet.

If your relationship is moving to you in caregiver role -- expecting things to get to the one-sided place because your patient is losing skills? It's a hard row to hoe. But there are support groups for caregivers to help deal with caregiver burn out and caregivers getting their own needs met.

If your patient is capable though... the more normal interaction the better.

GG
 
My partner's health condition is one of those frustrating ones that swings between flare-ups, where she is very ill and can lose coping skills due to severe malnutrition causing cloudy thinking, and remissions where she can expect a virtually normal quality of life, with just diet restrictions and meds.
It did suddenly occur to me that our being here (if she was always ill) would have looked a bit bizarre.
I have been doing that reading about non-violent communication. It looks very promising, and I will find a way to learn these skills.
Thanks to everyone who reached out to me on this thread and gave me such valuable food for thought. You guys are awesome.:)
 
I've always known that phrase, but mostly thanks to Bambi. I think the movie does a good job of demonstrating the kinds of situations it's really meant for: don't say something mean if it there's no good reason.

There are ways to tell someone something negative while still "being nice." For example, last night my husband and I were out at a lounge with two of his work buddies (railroaders, so 3 "typical guys" and me). I don't know what got into him, but his behaviour was deplorable. I won't get into details, but I was starting to wonder if I'd sat down next to the wrong husband.

We had some words after. I was pissed off and I didn't take the time to calm down and formulate my complaints in a compassionate or constructive way. I got in the car and said "OK, you were acting like a real ass in there" and proceeded to list the things he had said and done.

I'm not happy with how I presented it. Oh, make no mistake, I said what needed to be said. But afterwards, he was completely dejected and felt like a failure as a human being. That was not my intention, and in hindsight, I wish I'd focused on my feelings and his behaviour rather than reverting to juvenile name calling. He puts a lot of stock in what I say, so "You were being an ass because of this and this and this" made him feel like he is an ass. But he's not, he was just behaving like one.

So the point is... being nice is not always about the content of what you say, but the delivery. There are ways to be "nice" and still say what needs to be said.
 
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My partner's health condition is one of those frustrating ones that swings between flare-ups, where she is very ill and can lose coping skills due to severe malnutrition causing cloudy thinking, and remissions where she can expect a virtually normal quality of life, with just diet restrictions and meds.

Then perhaps NVC could help reduce the "volume" some when she is in a "bad phase" of her condition. And when she is in a "good phase" of her condition it can help reinforce to her that you are NOT out to get her, you will treat her with the same, kind but firm manner?

If she is capable, perhaps she can learn NVC skills too? Perhaps learning together could also help bond you better?

I don't know if there's anything local for you both in terms of "dealing with chronic patient" stuff. As the patient or the caregiver -- we get classes like that posted in our library and hospital so... maybe check those out where you live? Extra support couldn't hurt.

Galagirl
 
I've lost count of how many posts I've read here about how someone is sturggling because their partner told them a truth about the relationship that they didn't want to hear.

I'm wondering if you perceive a difference in things one might not want to hear, and things one needs to hear even while not wanting to.

I don't want to hear that my paycheck is being reduced, but I need to know so that I don't go buy a car before that happens. It would cause me a great deal of stress to have my paycheck reduced; it would cause MORE stress to hear it later, rather than sooner.
 
My question is how can someone learn these communication skills necessary to have the types of relationships a lot of you have?

Today I tried to communicate something to someone I love, something I knew would upset them, something "Not Nice". It's taken me a year and a half to be able to even bring the topic up.

I'm wondering how that went for you? Was it a good conversation? I take she didn't flee, nor collapse, nor break up...yes?

Where did you learn to communicate? Have any of you had to overcome entire lifetimes of conditioning in order to have the type of love in your life that you want?

Why yes, I have. I so appreciate the question! I get really frustrated, because almost all the people in my life now, did not know me when I was really nutty. Most of them don't believe I was ever that dysfunctional.

My conditioning was not quite as oppressive as yours; but my family was seriously fucked up. I was molested by family members and strangers for years. My parents were obsessively involved with each other, I had one therapist say she thought I suffered from what is called benign neglect. I had food, and clothing, and shelter, but not so much nurturance. I spent way too much time alone in my room. (I was an only child, until they divorced and married other people with children)

Somehow, I got the idea in my head that other people were happy (and functional) and that if I could just figure out what they knew, then I could be happy too.

So I did every thing I could get my hands on to help. I did free workshops. I did therapy when I could afford it. I read every self-help book I could get my hands on. I did fellowships. I talked to strangers until I was tired of telling my stories (and that took a long damn time) Literally, anything that sounded like it might help, I did it. NLP, rebirthing, massage, rolfing, Esalen, meditation, internet (once that came along - my first support group was newsgroups in tin), I'm sure there are more.

And eventually, I got better. And then some more, and then some more. I'm not all better, I'm certainly not fixed. But I've mostly stopped seeing myself as broken.


I'm also wondering if something that might be useful to you would be ... crap, I don't know what it's called. The therapy that helps you learn to tolerate anxiety in small bits. desensitization, that's it. It can help you learn to tolerate your own anxiety, and other's anxieties.

I'm encouraged to see you undertaking this journey! :D
 
I'm wondering if you perceive a difference in things one might not want to hear, and things one needs to hear even while not wanting to.

Yes, I believe I can grasp the difference.

1. "There was a huge-ass gross spider on your chair an hour ago, and it probably left spidercooties right where your hand is.":(

2. "There is a huge-ass gross spider on the back of your chair, RIGHT NOW, get up, run! Run!!:eek:
 
I'm wondering how that went for you? Was it a good conversation? I take she didn't flee, nor collapse, nor break up...yes?

Somehow, I got the idea in my head that other people were happy (and functional) and that if I could just figure out what they knew, then I could be happy too.

I'm also wondering if something that might be useful to you would be ... crap, I don't know what it's called. The therapy that helps you learn to tolerate anxiety in small bits. desensitization, that's it. It can help you learn to tolerate your own anxiety, and other's anxieties.

I'm encouraged to see you undertaking this journey! :D



Thank you for checking in with me, that's kind of you. Our conversations went extremely well. There were some tears at first, and concerns, but we stuck with it, and after several long talks, everything is really good. The fact that she is moving into remission really does help, as well.


"If I could just figure out what they knew..."
That does sum it up brilliantly. Perhaps for people with families which never saw communication as a needed or desired life skill, it does seem like arcane knowledge. It's something to aspire to, like speaking Italian, but not something that seems quite realistic for yourself unless a lot of work is done.

I agree with you about therapy. We did enjoy some progress, our first talk was only 15 minutes long. By the end, we were talking for 2-3 hours at a time about things which seemed impossible a couple of weeks ago. The stress level definately dropped with each conversation.:)
 
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