Who Writes This Sh*t?

Cuddling is inextricably linked to sexual intimacy for me, it's just the way I'm wired. I can dig it that other people can cuddle platonically. I will continue to avoid mass cuddling and such while gloriously indulging in it with my lovers.

Recently, my girlfriend wanted to get a cuddle pile going at a party and I think she got some unfortunate "ick" vibes from me. There were multiple attractive women that I didn't really know at that party, and knowing my own predilections, being dragged into that sort of situation was a bunch of NOPE.
 
I've always loved non sexual cuddling... Am I just weird :confused:

In high school and college, I shared a bed most nights with at least one of my girlfriends - depending on bed size we sometimes did five to a bed :eek: We spooned and cuddled but nothing sexual. And while I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, I didn't get aroused at all. Was just *nice* to have that close contact. (I still cuddle my close female friends, and my gay male friends, but I have a tough time not crossing boundaries if I cuddle straight/bi guys.)

I miss that honestly... Both Andy and Dag are cuddlers but not while they're trying to sleep, lol. I usually end up in a literal puppy pile with my dogs at night ;)

I don't think you are weird. You just have more options. As a woman, it is more acceptable for you to cuddle people of the same sex. As a het male, we just don't do that with each other. I might be able to cuddle with a lesbian friend, but she is still female so my mind would probably go there. But I do notice that you would have a hard time not crossing boundaries with guys who do like sex with women. So we are the same in that it would be hard to cuddle with someone who we would be inclined to have sex with.

I do miss cuddling with a partner though. Sprite and I don't do overnights so we only cuddle before and after our sexy time together, though we have cuddled while watching a movie and no sex (but we ARE sexual partners so that is different from a "cuddle buddy" situation). Elle and I can't cuddle without it leading to sex. We've tried cuddling while sleeping, but then we can't get sleep because sex. When Mary and I spent a weekend together...well she snored so loudly I couldn't sleep. That was an exhausting weekend. I really miss cuddling with Cat. When I finally get back there I probably won't let her out of my arms.
 
.... As a woman, it is more acceptable for you to cuddle people of the same sex. As a het male, we just don't do that with each other.

Depends on the culture or sub-culture. Most het males in the USA "just don't do that". But SOME do. And it's probably far more common than you imagine it to be -- though partly underground due to heterosexist and homophobic cultural tendencies (and the presumption that cuddling is somehow close to sex). Some sociological and anthropological research shows that same sex cuddling among het men is quite common in some cultures of today. And history shows that it was once very common in the USA -- generally prior to WWII.
 
And history shows that it was once very common in the USA -- generally prior to WWII.

I'd be curious to see links supporting this theory.


Some sociological and anthropological research shows that same sex cuddling among het men is quite common in some cultures of today.
Cuddling and not just walking arm in arm? Again, links, please.
If you're referencing the aforementioned "Arab culture," please also note that in that culture, expressions of homosexuality warrant death, so.... I'm not sure that we'd want to be modeling ourselves after that. In which culture would you actually prefer to live? Just because hetero guys can walk arm in arm in some places doesn't mean that a wide expression of sexuality is embraced there.
 
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I'd be curious to see links supporting this theory.

I never memorized names or links, and am having some difficulty finding really solid "evidence" for my claim, but much can be found of some relevance under search terms like "romantic friendship," "passionate friendship," and "homosociality".... One can also try google searches using terms like "physical affection" combined with "heterosexual men" and the various variants. I have other priorities for my time at the moment, but may try to dig deeper as time allows.

It is well known among certain historians and cultural/social anthropologists that American men and male youth quite commonly slept together in the same bed and shared non-sexual physical affection prior to WWII, and that it wasn't until men started coming home from WWII -- with many having experienced or witnessed explicitly homosexual relationships between men --, that the uniquely post WWII anti-homosexual craze began in earnest in the USA. Documenting these observations may, however, require more time than I had anticipated.
 
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Yes, in certain cultures in history, it was common for straight men to sleep together and have close friendships (because of that, some biographer somewhere is always trying to figure out Abe Lincoln's sexuality), but I'm not sure about actual cuddling. When I picture cuddling, it is more than just laying down next to each other - it would also involve some gentle stroking and caressing. I think that if a straight man caressed another straight man while reclining together, it would not commonly have been welcome in many historical periods, even if culturally homosexuality was fairly acknowledged or accepted.

However, in my experiences with group cuddling (NOT the organized commercial kind, blech!), yes straight men joined in the puppy pile with both genders - but we were all a bunch of bodyworkers and New Age-y types used to being in various stages of undress together during bodywork retreats and such. We discussed how to keep touch non-sexual and how touch-starved Western culture is. This was back in the 1980s, so these questions and ponderings are far from new.

In one of my training courses (bodywork), we were shown a documentary about touch, filmedin the late 70s or early 80s I think, and one part stayed with me. I hope I remember most of it...

Some scientists (probably sociologists) set up a study at NYC's public libraries. In it, they had placed two people at the book checkout by the exits. When the library members came along to check out a book, one planted checkout person would touch them (just a light tap on the hand or something rather innocuous and hardly noticeable) while the other made a point not to touch them at all.

They had a concealed camera recording these interactions, so they knew who had been touched and who hadn't been touched. Outside, an interviewer would stop those people (the library members) as they exited and ask them their impression of the library. The results were interestingly consistent - every person who had been touched felt the library was a positive experience. Every person who had not been touched was either neutral or negative about it.

Now, I may be mis-remembering some of it. Perhaps it was most and not all the people who were touched, and so on, but you get the point. Hmm, I am going to have to write to some old friends and find out the name of the film.
 
nycindie, My impression from stuff I've read over many years is that in the middle of nineteenth century America it was very, very normal and natural for boys and men (... perhaps also women and girls?) to be just vastly more physically affectionate with one another than we are in America today -- with the biggest shift happening after WWII. I have read many reports of "straight" boys and men sleeping together (literally, usually non-sexually, but with an arm or a leg wrapped round...) with frequency (it was normal, everyday, expected).... But, of course, this is a generalization -- and it may not have been that way everywhere. It may merely have been widespread. Whether it was mostly a rural or an urban phenomenon..., I can't say.

Of course, in those days, there was no category which we now call "gay" or "homosexual". Or if there was, it was rarely heard of.

As I understand (or perhaps misunderstand) the history, hardly anyone in the USA cared all that much about "homosexuality" until immediately after WWII, after which it suddenly became a rather big deal -- partly because large numbers of men had homosexual affairs during the war -- on Navy ships and etc. They came back to the States after the war ... and all homophobic hell started to pop up in the culture.
 
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Sleeping in the same bed was often a necessity due to living conditions, traveling with companions, needing to stay warm, etc. However sleeping next to someone is not the same thing as cuddling them, even if your arms are around them!


And from what I understand, the term "homosexual" came into use sometime in the late 19th century, though it may not have been popularized until, perhaps, the roaring twenties. I would not say that few people cared about homosexuality before the end of WWII. I recall that in many biographies, memoirs, and autobiographies I've read, gay and bisexual people felt they needed to either hide what they were feeling/doing from the general public and/or close friends and family, or disguise their sex lives as hetero by marrying someone of the opposite sex and playing the part, at least during the early part of the 20th century and well before WWII. There were judgements about it, though there was also acknowledgement that certain people were doing certain things!

I'm sure there were "issues" surrounding people's various sexual lives much earlier than that, depending on where and when. Same-sex attractions and sexual behavior have, of course, been going on throughout history. However, identifying as lesbian, gay, or bisexual is a pretty new concept/phenomenon, emerging in the late 20th century. Maybe this is what you did your reading on -- historically, many societies acknowledged same-sex behavior but without the participants identifying or being labeled as "homosexual." It was something they did, not something they were. In other words, there has long been a distinction between homosexual behavior , as in one's sexual activity, and homosexual identity , as in one's role in or relationship to society. I think the term "homosexual" came about in late 18th century more as a medical term to explain the behavior, probably because categorization and classification had become a major trend in the sciences.

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make, though.
 
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Yes, in certain cultures in history, it was common for straight men to sleep together and have close friendships (because of that, some biographer somewhere is always trying to figure out Abe Lincoln's sexuality), but I'm not sure about actual cuddling. When I picture cuddling, it is more than just laying down next to each other - it would also involve some gentle stroking and caressing. I think that if a straight man caressed another straight man while reclining together, it would not commonly have been welcome in many historical periods, even if culturally homosexuality was fairly acknowledged or accepted.

However, in my experiences with group cuddling (NOT the organized commercial kind, blech!), yes straight men joined in the puppy pile with both genders - but we were all a bunch of bodyworkers and New Age-y types used to being in various stages of undress together during bodywork retreats and such. We discussed how to keep touch non-sexual and how touch-starved Western culture is. This was back in the 1980s, so these questions and ponderings are far from new.

In one of my training courses (bodywork), we were shown a documentary about touch, filmedin the late 70s or early 80s I think, and one part stayed with me. I hope I remember most of it...

Some scientists (probably sociologists) set up a study at NYC's public libraries. In it, they had placed two people at the book checkout by the exits. When the library members came along to check out a book, one planted checkout person would touch them (just a light tap on the hand or something rather innocuous and hardly noticeable) while the other made a point not to touch them at all.

They had a concealed camera recording these interactions, so they knew who had been touched and who hadn't been touched. Outside, an interviewer would stop those people (the library members) as they exited and ask them their impression of the library. The results were interestingly consistent - every person who had been touched felt the library was a positive experience. Every person who had not been touched was either neutral or negative about it.

Now, I may be mis-remembering some of it. Perhaps it was most and not all the people who were touched, and so on, but you get the point. Hmm, I am going to have to write to some old friends and find out the name of the film.

I'm pretty sure I saw that study on TV way back when. The librarian didn't smile at anyone, but the ones she touched briefly said she did smile at them.

As for other places and times that River mentioned, none of that is relative to me. I live here in the U.S. in this time period. I do not believe there are heterosexual men secretly cuddling together. There are certainly all kinds of other types of men and I'm sure they do. Just not my thing because I do link it to sex. Apparently I am not the only one.
 
Hmmm...thinking and remembering.

I have a new platonic female friend (my first in many years - like 15) - I like it. We don't cuddle but we are very free with touch in other "acceptable" ways. She will do my hair (I LOVE having my hair brushed and played with), I will massage her tired neck and shoulders, playfull ass-slapping, etc. We will lie in her bed and talk about intimate things. We can see each other naked without weird (want a non-sexual intimate experience? - try shopping for bathing suits together!).

Another memory - I went on a road-trip with a lesbian friend of mine in her RV. We are both attracted to women but aren't attracted to each other sexually/romantically - we aren't each others' "type". She loves my back/neck rubs. She also likes to be read to - whilst I enjoy reading out loud. She drives, I navigate. We really complement each other as travel companions - our strengths support each other and we are both used to being the person that others turn to to solve problems/issues (so it is really nice to travel with someone who doesn't need help and appreciates it when offered!)

So ... after we had been home for a while and were reminiscing about the trip I mentioned that there was one point where I was tempted (after I had given her a melt-y back-rub on the bed) to just relax and cuddle-up into her warm. I refrained because I didn't know where that fit with her or her relationship status. (She is monogamous but curious about my poly life choices.) She responded that, under those circumstances, given that there is no sexual/romantic attraction between us, that platonic friend-cuddles would not have been out-of-line for her.

Curiouser and curiouser...I like my lines blurry but respect other peoples' need for boundaries and labels...

(This post is too long, so I will consider a blog post ...)
 
Same-sex attractions and sexual behavior have, of course, been going on throughout history. However, identifying as lesbian, gay, or bisexual is a pretty new concept/phenomenon, emerging in the late 20th century. Maybe this is what you did your reading on -- historically, many societies acknowledged same-sex behavior but without the participants identifying or being labeled as "homosexual."

The rise in awareness of homosexuality as an orientation and "type" (and not merely a behavior) came about with the emergence of psychology as a science, not because men went off to war and had homosexual encounters. Men have been going off to war for millennia and certainly for longer periods than was common during WWII. As with many behaviors that had formerly been considered a quirky but normal part of the societal landscape, all manner of mental "illnesses" were newly recognized during the 20th Century and along with these new diagnoses came societal marginalization and stigmatization.

In romanticizing "the past" or "other cultures," don't mistake ignorance for acceptance. As nycindie correctly points out, homosexual behavior has always existed, but the social recognition and safety of being a homosexual has been extraordinarily rare in history and throughout cultures. It's arguable that physical affection among hetero men is encouraged to greater or lesser degrees, but affectionate cuddling that includes snuggling, moving around, stroking and eye gazing would certainly have been considered sexual and therefor taboo by the overwhelming majority of people in "the past" and "other cultures." Just because men have been able to embrace or sleep close together doesn't at all mean that those same men enjoyed any more social breadth of expression than the men in present day USA - and in fact, they arguably lived with a tremendously limited choice of acceptable social behavior compared to the men of today.
 
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Homosexuality was sometimes ignored, sometimes demonized, in the late 19th and early 20th century.

English "public" schools (actually private, expensive prep schools) like Eton, were for males only. Homosexual behavior amongst adolescent boys was expected and rather condoned.

But in the 1880s-90s the famous author Oscar Wilde was tried and jailed for having a homosexual affair with a younger nobleman.

If you watch films from the 20s and 30s and even 40s, you will see effeminate males in major supporting roles. And there were famous femme male stars into the 60s and 70s, the author Truman Capote, the actors Charles Nelson Riley, and Paul Lynde, the musician Liberace, etc. Their possible sexuality was not spoken of, and many people just overlooked it.

However, in the 1920s, the "Great Lover" Rudolph Valentino was looked at askance by manly men, while also being celebrated as an incredibly sexy "sheik" by a huge fan base of women. He was so concerned to be "macho" he focused hard on his athleticism to offset his suspiciously pretty "foreign" looks. He was accused of having male lovers, but it has never been proven. He even overlooked his own health to appear strong, and died very young as a result of peritonitis.

Androgynous female stars of the '20s-'40s, such as Greta Garbo, Marlene Dietrich and Tallulah Bankhead, were famous in their circles for being bisexual and fucking both sexes. The public was kept from this knowledge by paying off the gossip columnists of the day.

So... yeah. Suspicion of homosexuals didn't start in the late 40's. It was there for quite some time.
 
I acknowledge the fact that heterosexism and homophobia definitely existed prior to the end of WWII -- in America, in Britain, etc. My claim is only that it became much stronger (more virulent) and began to influence how so-called "straight" men and boys behaved after WWII.

The change was specific: public expression of affection between men in general was less pervasive. The turned up volume on homophobia resulted in boys, adolescents and men being less willing to embrace, sit close together, drape arms around one another, hold hands..., all of which was far more common among men in America before the end of WWII.

I don't really have time today to document any of this, but one can "google" up articles about how homophobia and heterosexism has harmed all men. It may be challenging and time consuming to get a broad overview on this topic. It is a topic in one of the branches of the unfortunately tiny "men's movement". It is oven acknoweldged by straight men in America that homophobia has harmed straight men by making all forms of loving bonds between men seem "gay" (and thus icky, to be avoided). I even remember reading a lovely piece somewhere by a straight guy who complained that in America, too often, adolescent males will not sit in adjacent seats in movie theaters for fear of appearing "gay".

And, Vinsanity ... yes. Yes, straight men very often do cuddle with one another -- often in secret. Especially (aparently) young straight guys in
Britain. There is actual sociological research confirming this which you may easily google up. I don't know if similar research has been conducted in the US.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=straight men cuddle
 
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In the movie Across the Universe, it's so cute in the number Get By with a Little Help from My Friends, when they all end up in a big cuddle puddle. It helps to be drunk and high as a kite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6ERscWybs
 
I don't really have time today to document any of this, but one can "google" up articles about how homophobia and heterosexism has harmed all men. It may be challenging and time consuming to get a broad overview on this topic.
I really think you would enjoy having a full-on blog on the internet somewhere, where you could write thought-provoking articles for a wider audience.
 
Of related interest:

Deep Secrets: Boys' Friendships and the Crisis of Connection

by Niobe Way
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10475999-deep-secrets

Allowing Teenage Boys to Love Their Friends
By JAN HOFFMANSEPT. 21, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/fashion/seeking-to-help-boys-keep-their-friends.html?_r=3

Straight male friendship, now with more cuddling
Salon
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/05/straight_male_friendship_now_with_more_cuddling/

Interesting reading. The focus is mainly on teenagers who are still exploring their sexuality. I noticed many of them went to great lengths to say they are "not gay" so perhaps there is still some homophobia attached. It would be interesting to see if this carries on to adulthood and how many of those kids are actually gay or bi. I have noticed that young people are more accepting of blurring the gender "norms". It's as if they are rebelling against the attitudes that were prevalent when I was growing up. Not a bad thing.
 
I really think you would enjoy having a full-on blog on the internet somewhere, where you could write thought-provoking articles for a wider audience.

Yes, if I were to clone myself out into three or four exact copies of myself I'd have time for that, too, on top of the six hundred things I've already got going these days. But thanks for the encouragement!
 
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