A Mono walking the POLY journey

Whoa, girls! I wasn't getting that vibe at all.

KIDD, from what I've read I think you and your wife have a beautiful thing going! My husband, Sundance and I are more about the radical honesty too. (When my mother found out about our V arrangement, she said I was our of my mind to think he would be okay with that. I think she would have been more supportive of me having a secret affair.) She doesn't get it -- I can't keep a secret from my husband. It's hopeless! I LOVE sharing things with him, and even when the truth hurts -- Sundance is a lot more like you, in that, he'd rather have the painful truth, than some watered down version of my feelings. Remember that movie, A Few Good Men, when Nicholson says, "You can't handle the truth!" Well, he had a point there -- some people can't, I mean, be careful what you ask for! But it sounds like you ARE. I think you are a very strong man, and the love between you and your wife is strong, too.

The way you met with the new guy and the two of you got on, I think that is really great.

My husband is falling more in love with my BF every day (in a hetero, Catfish-like way :) ) and it is so cool to see two men growing close like that. I love that by-product of our V. That will help you feel a lot less threatened. The human nature of competion comes into play, but it doesn't have to take over and turn you into sparring animals -- I think the two of you are being the greatest of gentlemen.

The sex is new so naturally there will be some comparisons going on -- but there are so many dimensions to a physical relationship, I think you realize that and know that both relationships can be very, very good and fulfilling to your wife. She is exploring some very interesting things right now (I know, I've been doing a lot of that myself) -- the lessons she learned along the way about sex and love, good and bad, wow, I think it's really cool what she is doing, and I think it's awesome that you are there for the journey. You must really love her -- and she must really know it :)

Penis size and body size -- what really matters is the human touch, period. I think it can all be good, as long as you are open and loving, and I do think you both are.
 
Please don't call me "girl."
 
No, no, my bad. I shouldn't be petty about it. As I said, my gut reaction here is making me unreasonable and it's spilling over into all my responses.

My husband and I also practice radical honesty. I am just not getting the feeling that's what's going on here, at least not from her.

I will have to analyze my own reactions and post something more substantive and logical, but right now my instincts are screaming at me that there's something going on here that just isn't right.

I usually don't go on guts alone, but my reaction is so strongly negative in this case that it is actually difficult for me to analyze and articulate it at this time. I have numerous non-poly-related issues going on in my life atm, which does not help.

Still, I have found that my guts bear listening to, and while I don't want to undermine the OP's progress or potential happiness, I feel it would not be without merit for him to entertain the notion that maybe this situation really isn't okay.
 
I would say that some of the things she has said go beyond radical honesty and have a feeling of deliberate cruelty. It almost sounds like retaliation for long held resentments or such. What do I know?
 
In the spirit of radical honesty why not talk about becoming fluid bonded BEFORE it happens! This kind of thing is a big deal that anyone sexually involved with any of the parties needs to be informed of so that they can make sexual health decisions for themselves. Just because an STI test came back negative doesn't mean that for sure everything is all good. There are window periods for a lot of STIs when they don't show up on tests. What you get, at best, is a picture of what someone's sexual health status was 6 weeks ago.

I'm not saying that in this case there is a risk of an STI but it is still something that as someone involved you need to know so that you can make your own choices around condom use ect.
 
Thanks Penny -- I didn't mean to jump on what you'd said as if you were "wrong" and I was "right." It may have come off that way, but it was not intentional. I get what you're saying -- that is one thing I like about the forum -- people will speak from the heart. It is good to consider the perspectives of others, for sure. I know in my own life there are times I can be walking around in some DEEP denial, until someone has said, "Hey! I'm seeing THIS....!"

So many facets, especially when you are grinding yourself into a diamond. It would be so much easier to just stay dull, than to explore the sparkly life of polyamory! Ha!

KIDD, I hope you will keep sharing. Maybe your wife could come on here, too? Sometimes that helps, to have both perspectives. I really like the shared blogs on here. Anyway, hang in there!
 
I would say that some of the things she has said go beyond radical honesty and have a feeling of deliberate cruelty. It almost sounds like retaliation for long held resentments or such. What do I know?

Hurt people hurt people. I hope this is part of their journey toward more awareness, and healing.

(What does any of us really know, for sure? We're all just speculating here, from the little we get to go on from someone's posts. I think your insights are usually pretty good, SN; I know I've appreciated a lot of things you've said. You too, Penny. In fact, I think anyone who is walking the poly walk themself has a pretty good take on these particular issues. Yay, us! We're all in this together, right? ;))
 
Just because an STI test came back negative doesn't mean that for sure everything is all good. There are window periods for a lot of STIs when they don't show up on tests. What you get, at best, is a picture of what someone's sexual health status was 6 weeks ago.

I believe that there are also some things that aren't normally tested for like HPV and Herpes, probably others.
 
Oh man this is not sitting well with me either. It harks of control some how and NRE gone wild. I have the same gut feeling penny.

I appreciate that he is a "nice" guy and made you breakfast Cap'n, but this going WAY to fast to be inviting him over for kid time. How long have they been together?

Sorry, this just kinda creeps me some how. Some how I have it in my head that she is sex happy and he can do no wrong because of it. She has iussues, you have issues and yet this guy is right in there with fluid bonding and family time. It freaks me out.

Still, I'm not you, we don't know her side or his side and really, if she goes by her gut and so do you and this guy is all good in that respect then who am I to say. Really its the issues you've laid out that make me think that this guy is moving in too fast. That was just way too much to decide on over one breakfast.

Why the hell was HE telling you about the fluid bonding and why after three weeks?! Something is just not right to me. I can't help shaking that they are setting you up for her leaving you.
 
@Redpepper, My wife has known OG since the beginning of September 2010. They have been together since the end of October. They have been sleeping together since the end of January. In all, they have known eachother for 7 months now.

I guess the problem I am having is that I dis-trust my "gut". I am having a hard time deciding whether I am being hurt because my wife is being insensitive, and her relationship with OG is showing problematic red flags OR whether its my BPD and fears of abandonment acting up.... If I went by my "gut", I'd want my marriage to stay monogamous. If my goal was to avoid pain and insecurity I would have asked my wife to keep our traditional marital vows. The way to overcome specific phobias is to face them head on. It is by avoiding fear triggering stimuli that keeps phobias alive, its by ignoring your "gut" and facing your fear that phobias are cured (exposure therapy). I guess what I am trying to sort out, is whether that is a good model for turning a mono-relationship into a poly-relationship... OR am I ignoring insensitivities. By seeking to avoid my jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness, am I also overlooking inconsiderations? On these points I am very, very confused.
 
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I am alarmed that she and OG went ahead and fluid-bonded without discussing it with you beforehand. Seven months isn't really a long time to be involved before doing that. There are a number of tests that do not get performed unless requested, and many that require regular periodic testing to be (more) sure. Furthermore, she is not just fluid-bonded with him, she is fluid-bonded with the both of you - and that means you are at risk. Taking this drastic step without your knowledge, permission, and investigation of the "facts" (ie., have you seen his test results on paper? How recent were they both tested?) is flagrantly disrespectful to you, and just plain stupid and selfish. "Oh, by the way, we fluid-bonded a few weeks ago." What kind of crap is that??!!! And now you are in a position where, if they won't use protection, you should. Because they expect you to just go on his word, but since they didn't include you in the decision, his word is worthless, as I see it. That is screwed up.

If I were you, I would stand up for myself in the face of this dismissive and idiotic act, and NOT have him in your home interacting with your children until that breach of trust is healed. It is a serious thing they did!

But I think I will speak mostly to your last post.

Her communications to you have been quite unkind, and yes -- it seems there is an element of vengefulness or wanting to punish you somewhere in all this. You are trying to be a nice guy but you are in this poly situation when you really don't want to be. It does not seem like your feelings or need to perhaps move more slowly, were even taken into consideration. And now you are expected to just put up with whatever she wants, while your "seeking to avoid my jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness," as you say, isn't helping you one bit. Besides, avoidance doesn't really work -- ask anyone who drinks or uses drugs to avoid the pain of living. The pain is still there, just buried by addictions, and it never goes away.

You cannot avoid your feelings. The only way they can truly be "vanquished," that is, no longer rule you, is to feel those feelings as they come up, look at them, let your self be with what is, and not try to avoid it all. So, if you're jealous, fuck, that is what you are! It doesn't mean you need to lash out at anyone because of them, but avoiding them only keeps them around. "Whatever you resist, persists, and grows stronger." Once you allow yourself to be just as you are, those rages, insecurities, etc., will complete themselves and you will see things more clearly. Sure, they'll come up again, but the more you practice being okay with your emotional responses, the less power they have over you.

In Journey of the Heart by John Welwood (a book on relationships which I highly recommend), he writes:
"Depending on how we relate to love's pain, it can lead in one of two very different directions. If we regard it as a threat, something to avoid at all cost, we will try to patch it over, keep it out of sight. After a while, however, accumulating patches only deadens our sensitivity and our capacity to love freely. Resenting the pain involved in becoming vulnerable to another person causes us to lose heart or harden our heart, and this cuts off the energetic flow between us.

Yet if we can learn to make use of our pain, it can be an invaluable helper and guide on the path. For it exposes and directs our attention to places inside us where we are shut down, contracted, and half-asleep. If I can move with my pain more fluidly, my rigid defenses start to dissolve and I become more permeable to love's awakening influence. And when I can let my partner see my hurt, instead of hiding it away, where it may fester and poison the relationship, this creates greater intimacy between us.

Of course, nobody wants to feel pain. Yet to become a warrior of the heart--one who is willing to risk being wounded in the service of love--we must be able to use the pain that relationship inevitably brings our way."​

Letting someone see your pain is not about whining or making demands, but about being truthful and present. Welwood also says, "Awareness holds no grudge . . . it simply allows us to see what is," and that "trying to find the right way to be" (instead of just being) keeps us from being genuinely present. It's okay not to know what to do or to be uncomfortable. It will pass, eventually. And if your wife can't be present in the face of your pain, then what is she avoiding? Perhaps her whole involvement with OG is an avoidance of something! I found it interesting that you started off this thread by saying "Our marriage has been very happy and successful. It still is." Yet, the more you reveal, the more it seems like there are undercurrents of resentment and festering anger.

You mentioned that both you and your wife are in marriage counseling -- is that in group sessions together, or separately? I think it would behoove you to talk together in therapy about every microtruth of what's going on for you. AND ask her to register here and post her side of the story. We won't bite.
 
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Kidd, have you tried meditation? My husband and I are still new to poly and him dating another woman has triggered a lot of the same fears of abandonment and insecurity that it sounds like you are experiencing. Lately I often feel overwhelmed and like my emotions and intellect are all out of whack--that I can't trust my gut. One thing that's helped me is mindfulness meditation, where I let myself fully experience the fear I'm feeling, without trying to push it away or tell myself a story about it. Sometimes I end up in tears, but usually in the end the fear dies away a little and it all feels a little less overwhelming so I can more easily identify what's an irrational fear and what's a more legitimate problem.

I find it's also helpful to follow my fears to their (usually illogical) end. For example, if he gets ready to leave on a date and I feel abandoned, I fear he likes her more, that he doesn't love me, that I'll never find someone else who does, that I'm irreparably flawed, etc, etc. Even if following my fears that way feels scary, eventually I reach a point where I realize my fears are absurd, that of course I'm loved and loveable and that I just need to find something to do to keep my mind off of it for a few hours. Usually a big hug and kiss when he returns quiets those demons up pretty quick. On the other hand, if you follow your fears and they don't seem so irrational, that's something that you need to discuss more. For example, if I feel insecure about my husband being intimate with someone else and the fears center around her being a better lover or him not loving me as much as he used to--totally my hangups. But if he stopped using protection without informing me first, went out of his way to compare me unfavorably to his new girlfriend, or tried to use his upbringing as a bullshit excuse to perform certain sexual acts with her but not me--doing those things are physically dangerous and/or emotionally cruel. It seems like she's disregarding your safety and emotional well-being because she knows she can get away with it right now because you'll file it under "personal baggage" and continue to put up with it.
 
This, especially.

Yup.

People keep beating me to agreeing with other people. I decided this time to just double agree.

Also, you may not feel confident in trusting your gut, but the guts of numerous people who are pro-polyamory are saying the same thing. I'm married and have a boyfriend, so I have every reason to be on your wife's side, but I don't like what I'm seeing here.
 
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Also the female hinge of a vee. That's two guts of women in a similar situation. At the very least, is it not worth asking for them to slow down, get tested, and hold off on family time of any sort for another 6 months? Usually NRE is over by then. And ya, use a condom. Keep yourself safe.
 
Another female hinge of a MFM V here. Still seeing things a little less harshly (maybe it's my own baggage?!) Hell, I'm rather new here, too, so I hardly have room to question. I feel a little nervous -- am I being too naive? Maybe KIDD "SHOULD" be more upset about some things, but I don't know, maybe he has a remarkable capacity for forgiveness or compassion? Is his wife abusive, or is she just immature? Is the new guy being a creep or is he genuinely interested in building a friendship? How soon is too soon, to jump into love and/or friendship? I'm asking these things because I admit, I have not always been the most healthy person when it comes to relationships. I sometimes get very confused as to what is healthy and what is not. Sometimes I want a friend so badly, I will overlook some pretty rotten behavior, in the hopes that we can grow together. I have had a lot of trouble in the boundary-setting department, in my life -- but sometimes the way people treat me is the way I TAUGHT them to treat me, so I know much of the work is mine to do. Anyway...

I see your wife making mistakes but I know I made some too. In our V, the three of us are learning as we go -- and some great lessons have been learned, a lot of personal growth and growth in our marriage and our friendships has ensued. We have been called to explore our deepest emotions. There have been tremendous opportunities for truth and forgiveness. And lots of self-examination.

KIDD, please encourage your wife to post. Considering the gut reactions of the others on the forum who have been living polyamorously for much longer, I think she could really use the awareness. There is wisdom here -- maybe she could learn from some of our mistakes, and spare you both a lot of pain.
 
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