Not Sure What To Title

WanderingINTJ

New member
Though I am unsure what to title this thread, I'm sure my story won't be a new or unique one. I am thoroughly glad that I found a place to express myself. My views have seemed to morph so much, and it seems there are very few people with who I can converse and receive feedback. Essentially, I feel alone. I'll let my first post be a summary then will proceed to add details later.

I'm pretty much at a point after 8 years of a monogamous marriage that I am very interested in polyamory, but my husband is not. Monogamy was nothing I really thought about until a couple of years ago. It was then it was questioned. I guess monogamy was apart of that forsaking all others, but I really never have thought to what it exactly meant. Probably because I identify on the asexual spectrum, the role of sex in my life was not important nor contemplated a lot. I've had sex with people before, but it just was umimportant and uneventful (not to say it was bad, but just the way I processed it) that it's seems I never gave a lot of thought to what I was engaging in and what it meant.

Well, after developing some feelings for a friend of 14 years (that I never was attracted to before-after discovering a asexuality, that helped to maybe explain,) I contemplated more about my feelings. I did not tell myself that I was not supposed to have feelings for someone else and didn't feel hugely guilty because they were not primarily sexual in nature, I simply said to myself, how can I manage these feelings because they can't possibly be horribly wrong. It felt very much like having affectionate and truly loving feelings for a friend.

I began doing research and came across poly. I felt I was capable of strongly emotionally connecting to more than one person. It was then I proceeded to ask my husband what he thought about being emotionally connected to multiple people. He stated that he thought this should be exclusive to a man and wife just like sex. I proceeded to tell him that I thought I was capable.

With my proposal of polyamory, came rejection from him. To him, he felt I was reacting to untreated depression and because of my mental health deficits I would not be able to be in relationship with anyone more than him. He even stated I wasn't truly asexual, because I wanted a polyamorous relationship, and needed a diagnosis. This was all about 18 months ago.

Over the course of this time, things have continued on. I continued researching and trying to connect with others that were familiar with what was going on in my head. Overall, this has been a journey just truly learning about myself and how I'm meant to live life (at least in this moment.) I relearned that I've always thought that two people exclusively providing each other's needs for life was never a realistic ideal for me. I just went into a monogamous marriage because it was the right thing to do. The best way to raise children. I really wish I would have known I wasn't by myself before marriage.

I've learned that in my life, I Live life full of changes, phases, new things, adventure and a long term monogamous marriage does not seem to fit into that. That has been very hard for me to accept. That everything else in your life is allowed to change (probably with the allowance of your spouse) but not your marriage and the vows you stated. I have come to believe, the things in any relationship are and should be open to negotiation. Not to say everyone gets what they want all the time, but there is flexibility. Unfortunately, after time, I think I have come to the decision that my husband and I should part ways. He can get what he needs out of a relationship (as he is a very passionate, sexual, affectionate person who has compromised himself a bit to accommodate my asexual ways and sometimes aromance- I was hoping him finding an additional relationship would be an answer) and me, I can get whatever out of life. We do have a daughter, so that is the most difficult part of making this decision.

Pursuing polyamory just seems like a way to additionally fully live life, discover new things, people, and places. There's definitely more about all of this that I will add. In the mean time, thank you for reading and feel free to comment.
 
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Hi WanderingINTJ,

Thanks for sharing your story; it sounds like you have put considerable thought into polyamory and related subjects. I hope Polyamory.com will supply you with much of the support and feedback that you need, during this challenging time of transition and after.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hi WanderingINTJ,

Thanks for sharing your story; it sounds like you have put considerable thought into polyamory and related subjects. I hope Polyamory.com will supply you with much of the support and feedback that you need, during this challenging time of transition and after.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Thank you very much
 
Today's Discussion

Well, we discussed divorce in our couples session. My husband became very emotional, pretty much attacking my ability as a parent. "Keep our daughter away from your extra curricular activities. She's gonna be meeting people on the Internet, there gonna follow her home, and hurt my daughter. Our daughter doesn't even think she likes her." Of course this made me upset and since we'll be living together at least until the end of the lease (2 mos) we're at home and he wants to act and fake like he just did not attack my parenting. I have never put my daughter in harm's way and she is always reassured that I love her.

I was even crticized about one of my current friends. She's delivering a baby tomorrow and is also a long time smoker. So supposedly I was so wrong, because I was a nurse was ok with her smoking. I was never ok with it and she knew my stance. One thing I do not do is, run interference with grown people who consciously make decisions knowing the consequences and being willing to live with them. But supposedly something is wrong with me for that.

Overall, I'm thinking, why am I doing this to myself. Why am I choosing to leave my marriage when it would be an uncomfortable comfort to just stay. It's gonna be hard. Hard getting through this divorce. It's already starting. Am I going after the challenge because I'm a risk taker. Because there is a different way of life I want to pursue and it's better maybe to do it now? ( I'm thinking it will be more difficult of my daughter was older?) To be honest, we could probably work this out if I had continue interest in an exclusive situation. It really even seems difficult to justify. Just unsure.
 
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Sorry your husband is giving you a problem. :(
 
I am sorry you struggle.

I wrote this on my blog thread a while ago.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147308&postcount=6

I don't know if reading that could help you any.

1) In helping you work things out.

Like Closed enough so he feels good and safe enough in the in the marriage. And Open enough for you to express your emerging poly thoughts and feelings you are trying to come to terms with, without you being verbally attacked. So you can feel good and safe enough in the marriage as well.

He sounds like he takes it personally, gets super defensive, and goes on the attack (ex: You are not really asexual, you have a mental health problem, you stink as a mother, etc.) That's not ok to do. (What's the fear or believe that inspires all this defensive listening/attack-y reaction?)


2) Or in helping you "un-couple" and divorce more peacefully without all this attack-y stuff and without burning bridges. Because you still have to coparent together afterward.

You might want to talk about that in counseling if you are sure about parting ways. What needs to "uncouple" and in what order to do it in so the transition is as smooth as possible for both of you and kid. From banking to chores to where you sleep at night til you each have separate homes. All of it.

Whichever path you are ultimately on, I hope things get better for you.

Galagirl
 
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I completely feel you, in that it sucks so much when someone you have been married to, all of a sudden when you have to look to your own needs and possibly part ways, they act as though they are then justified to call into question EVERYTHING.

My ex...so, so much. I was as faithful as I could be, and I think I did quite well (had a brief emotional fling online with a man who it was deliberately, due to tremendous distance, impossible to ever meet...and got a bit attached to a friend, knowing it would go nowhere, at the end...but did not physically cheat on him, and this was over an 18 year span!) I chose him, time and again, over others. Over not just other men, but my friends and my family. Everyone but my children. I took awesome care of our finances. I was a good Mom, sometimes a great Mom. I was supportive of him and well...I think I did alright.

The moment I declared myself unable to continue the relationship as it was, I was a horrible person, a betrayer, and my ability to be good or responsible in any or all ways was called into question.

Honestly, I feel as though he never KNEW ME except as framed in the mold of "his wife." Once I was not that, I was an enemy and a stranger to him. I don't know how you can be that way to another person and call it love.

I have never treated an ex so badly, and I don't know how people do that. It's awful. And to whatever degree you are dealing with that, I am sorry.

All I can say is...YOU MATTER. Your needs matter. It's way too easy to push them aside and just cope with an unhappy life for years and years because it's safe and because you can, and because it's "the right thing to do." But there is a sliding scale, of "Well life could be better but I can deal with it." to "This situation is bringing me actual stress, negativity, unhappiness." that can affect your HEALTH...that is when you know it has to be over.

And the unfortunate truth, I think, is with some guys once you pull the trigger and the words come out, that you want to change things and cannot be what they demand that you be for them anymore...they will never let you take it back and go back to comfortable old day-to-day again. You might wish, because it was easy, that you'd never said anything and could go back to the way it was before. But it is not likely, in my opinion.

Best wishes and good luck. The road ahead might be a hard one. I hope it works out ok for you.
 
I completely feel you, in that it sucks so much when someone you have been married to, all of a sudden when you have to look to your own needs and possibly part ways, they act as though they are then justified to call into question EVERYTHING.

My ex...so, so much. I was as faithful as I could be, and I think I did quite well (had a brief emotional fling online with a man who it was deliberately, due to tremendous distance, impossible to ever meet...and got a bit attached to a friend, knowing it would go nowhere, at the end...but did not physically cheat on him, and this was over an 18 year span!) I chose him, time and again, over others. Over not just other men, but my friends and my family. Everyone but my children. I took awesome care of our finances. I was a good Mom, sometimes a great Mom. I was supportive of him and well...I think I did alright.

The moment I declared myself unable to continue the relationship as it was, I was a horrible person, a betrayer, and my ability to be good or responsible in any or all ways was called into question.

Honestly, I feel as though he never KNEW ME except as framed in the mold of "his wife." Once I was not that, I was an enemy and a stranger to him. I don't know how you can be that way to another person and call it love.

I have never treated an ex so badly, and I don't know how people do that. It's awful. And to whatever degree you are dealing with that, I am sorry.

All I can say is...YOU MATTER. Your needs matter. It's way too easy to push them aside and just cope with an unhappy life for years and years because it's safe and because you can, and because it's "the right thing to do." But there is a sliding scale, of "Well life could be better but I can deal with it." to "This situation is bringing me actual stress, negativity, unhappiness." that can affect your HEALTH...that is when you know it has to be over.

And the unfortunate truth, I think, is with some guys once you pull the trigger and the words come out, that you want to change things and cannot be what they demand that you be for them anymore...they will never let you take it back and go back to comfortable old day-to-day again. You might wish, because it was easy, that you'd never said anything and could go back to the way it was before. But it is not likely, in my opinion.

Best wishes and good luck. The road ahead might be a hard one. I hope it works out ok for you.

I was thinking the same thing, how can you treat someone that way and call it love. I was thinking yesterday, no, you are not my friend if you attach the one thing that is the most important thing in my life and that's my ability and effort in parenting, especially with false statements. You are not my friend and the fact that he had repeatedly done this, at this point, I do no like you (and I rarely do dislike of people.) After attacking me in marriage counseling he proceeded to want to have cordial fake conversation. I don't do fake. How about we not talk at all. We don't have to be mean to each other, but we won't be fake, acting as if hurt is not there.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

I wrote this on my blog thread a while ago.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147308&postcount=6

I don't know if reading that could help you any.

1) In helping you work things out.

Like Closed enough so he feels good and safe enough in the in the marriage. And Open enough for you to express your emerging poly thoughts and feelings you are trying to come to terms with, without you being verbally attacked. So you can feel good and safe enough in the marriage as well.

He sounds like he takes it personally, gets super defensive, and goes on the attack (ex: You are not really asexual, you have a mental health problem, you stink as a mother, etc.) That's not ok to do. (What's he fear or believe that inspires all this defensive listening/attack-y reaction?)


2) Or in helping you "un-couple" and divorce more peacefully without all this attack-y stuff and without burning bridges. Because you still have to coparent together afterward.

You might want to talk about that in counseling if you are sure about parting ways. What needs to "uncouple" and in what order to do it in so the transition is as smooth as possible for both of you and kid. From banking to chores to where you sleep at night til you each have separate homes. All of it.

Whichever path you are ultimately on, I hope things get better for you.

Galagirl

Thank you. :)
 
After attacking me in marriage counseling he proceeded to want to have cordial fake conversation. I don't do fake. How about we not talk at all. We don't have to be mean to each other, but we won't be fake, acting as if hurt is not there.

I could understand if you feel totally blah after a verbal attack. You may not be ready at that point in time to talk to him again. Who would want to do that so soon and risk yet ANOTHER load of verbal garbage dumped on their head? Nobody.

But... was this cordial conversation an attempt at some kind of olive branch/peace offering thing? An attempt at a timeout? Pause the conversation that is getting out of hand, and try to reconnect on conversation that isn't so heated? :confused:

I do that with my spouse. I am still mad about The Thing. And he might still be mad about The Thing. But if all we do is argue about The Thing? One or the other usually calls a timeout on any more Thing Talk so we can cool off and not say regrettable things. We make a date at least a week out before we trying talking about The Thing again.

In the meanwhile? We try to talk about "neutral" things and get on with the house stuff, the kids, the laundry, -- just regular life stuff. That helps us to cool off even more. Talking about what to make for dinner for instance. It doesn't mean we are being "fake" about it and pretending there isn't hurt there that still needs solving. We are acknowledging that in order to solve it effectively, we first have to calm down and recenter. Angry people can do a lot of loud talking. But they do not do great listening.

Whether or not you end up divorcing him... don't look askance at peace offerings. Could guard against doing what he's been doing -- jumping to conclusions and then feeling all Grrrr! about it. Basically cranking his own self up and escalating rather than working to de-escalate and seek better understanding.

If you feel calm in the morning? You could ask how he means it -- this attempt at cordial conversation.

If you are not calm in the morning? Not able to communicate well yet? Say so. "I see you wanted to talk, but I need some space to cool off first. I will check in when I feel better. Or you can check in on _____ if I don't check in with you before that." Cool off, and then ask him how he meant it when you check in later on.

Because again... you still have to coparent the kid together whether you stay married or not. And it is a lot easier to do that with someone you have not burned all the bridges with. YKWIM?

Galagirl
 
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I could understand if you feel totally blah after a verbal attack. You may not be ready at that point in time to talk to him again. Who would want to do that so soon and risk yet ANOTHER load of verbal garbage dumped on their head? Nobody.

But... was this cordial conversation an attempt at some kind of olive branch/peace offering thing? An attempt at a timeout? Pause the conversation that is getting out of hand, and try to reconnect on conversation that isn't so heated? :confused:

I do that with my spouse. I am still mad about The Thing. And he might still be mad about The Thing. But if all we do is argue about The Thing? One or the other usually calls a timeout on any more Thing Talk so we can cool off and not say regrettable things. We make a date at least a week out before we trying talking about The Thing again.

In the meanwhile? We try to talk about "neutral" things and get on with the house stuff, the kids, the laundry, -- just regular life stuff. That helps us to cool off even more. Talking about what to make for dinner for instance. It doesn't mean we are being "fake" about it and pretending there isn't hurt there that still needs solving. We are acknowledging that in order to solve it effectively, we first have to calm down and recenter. Angry people can do a lot of loud talking. But they do not do great listening.

Whether or not you end up divorcing him... don't look askance at peace offerings. Could guard against doing what he's been doing -- jumping to conclusions and then feeling all Grrrr! about it. Basically cranking his own self up and escalating rather than working to de-escalate and seek better understanding.

If you feel calm in the morning? You could ask how he means it -- this attempt at cordial conversation.

If you are not calm in the morning? Not able to communicate well yet? Say so. "I see you wanted to talk, but I need some space to cool off first. I will check in when I feel better. Or you can check in on _____ if I don't check in with you before that." Cool off, and then ask him how he meant it when you check in later on.

Because again... you still have to coparent the kid together whether you stay married or not. And it is a lot easier to do that with someone you have not burned all the bridges with. YKWIM?

Galagirl

Well, actually in counseling, it was stated that we should watch what we say with each other and try to use some of the communication principles that we were taught in marriage counseling. Those principles to me though were for the sake of connecting with each other and becoming closer (and I guess being respectful). I can really be respectful without talking to you. Having random small talk conversation really doesn't make me feel good about you bashing me about the reason I want to divorce you, about you bashing me about my friends, about you essentially being the type of person I really dislike, a judgemental, critical person. Also, the cordial fake conversation despite what you continue to feel inside about me is fake to me. See, when he brought up in counseling that he thought something was wrong with me because I am the friend of a pregnant smoker, and you never said anything about that before? The fact that you feel my daughter supposedly feels rejected by me and you never said anything before? See, it's hard for me to explain, but, it's been a reoccurring theme in our marriage. Let's act like there is no problems, smile in each other's faces, but really be harboring resentment. That's fake to me.
 
Well, actually in counseling, it was stated that we should watch what we say with each other and try to use some of the communication principles that we were taught in marriage counseling.

That's why spouse and I take a time out when angry about The Thing. To help us watch what we say with each other. Cool off first.

See, it's hard for me to explain, but, it's been a reoccurring theme in our marriage. Let's act like there is no problems, smile in each other's faces, but really be harboring resentment. That's fake to me.

So both of you did that in the marriage? Smile in each other's faces and really be harboring resentments? :confused:

And now you want to stop doing that and be more up front and emotionally authentic? But he wants to keep on with the pattern he knows best because that is easier for him?

I am going to guess. I might guess wrong. I'll also be frank in my guess.



I guess he might be emotionally immature. Like...

He acts out with tantrum stuff when things do not go how he thinks they "should" go. Or you don't behave how he thinks you "should" behave. By having a cow at you, he knows he can shut the conversations down. Then he mistakes "silence" and "lack of relationship conflict" as "relationship harmony."

As a spouse, he does not create safe space for you to come to him with your stuff. You have learned you will not get that here. You have been used to lumping it on your own, or talking to a few friends.

There here comes this poly self awareness. You don't have anyone to talk to about that. Past experience shows you he's not trustworthy in this area because he does not create safe space for you. So now you feel isolated. That's a hard row to hoe. So you want changes. Either for the marriage to become nourishing through him learning new skills so he can provide what has been missing. Or to be free to move on to face these changes in your life without a marriage that drags on you.

He wants you to not change -- so you stay matching the picture in his head. Rather than HIM doing some work to update the picture so it comes to match that way.

He's struggling with you being changing in a way he cannot ignore. Like if you used to love knitting and now you love crochet? That's a change for you, but ignorable for him because it can be filed under "That yarny stuff she does." Doesn't affect him any.

But you changing in a way where you want better/more communication from him, changes in the marriage dynamics? That DOES affect him. And it is not something he can ignore. He has to change behaviors to grow with you or not change behaviors and grow apart.

If he's emotionally immature, he could view all this as "things were fine before she started it! She's being X!"

It's easier to blame the other person than examine how one contributes to the situation making. Much like a little kid who promises to put away his shoes and doesn't? When called into account the child cannot handle the strong feelings that emerge and might flip it around on the parent. "I hate you! You are mean!"

If he's contributing to marriage BLAH by not living up to his marriage vows/promises? Not holding up his end of the stick? You are allowed to bring that to his attention and ask for changes in behavior. Him going "You are mean!" or whatever is not solving the problem.

When conversation gets too uncomfortable for him? Because it is examine HIS behavior too close? If he can change the focus of conversation to behavior YOU did/did not do? Then we are not talking about HIS behavior any more. I suspect that's why all this stuff -- the smoking nurse, your parenting, yada yada. Change the spotlight. Putting the spotlight on you and your behaviors? Takes the spotlight off him and his behaviors.

He doesn't seem to have the emotional honesty skills to go "I feel uncomfortable right now talking about that. I need some time to digest all that before I can respond." That is fair, and you might be willing to work with that. But you do not GET that.​

Is that a close guess to where you might be at? :confused:

Are you in counseling to see if this can work out? And if not, move on to divorce? Has he used up all his strikes in counseling? Like he SAYS he will work on it, but his actions are hemming/hawing/foot dragging, not actually trying?

How can people help you here?

Galagirl
 
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It's been years even before I even thought about poly that I informed him that we have problems in the relationship and its best if we tried to work them out. He repeatedly stated he felt there were no issues. But when I brought up poly, now a whole list of things comes out and he stated that he was just trying to keep the peace by not saying something. Be different if I was an argumentative person and even if so, counseling could have been used. We've definitely learned that any type of stress in a relationship he dislikes and avoids. Over the past few months, he's done better with facing things.

The list of problems that have come out since I guess he feels comfortable and I guess my part: 1. He likes to talk a lot and I don't talk back enough. This seems to have been important for him to be connected. 2. He feels rejected often (I identify on the asexual spectrum, which he suggested) because I'm not interested in sex and sensual touch often. 3. I've often expressed my disappointment in his lack of ambition and he feels like I throw my higher income around. 5. My depression has really been a bother for himanf he feels this is a main reason I'm interested in poly. 4. In the last year, I had a super brief affair where I exchanged some nude photos and went on a date. Other than number 4, those things have been going on forever, but again he said, he had no problems. If he was open to a poly lifestyle, with a lot of hard work, we could make our partnership work, or at least we could try. But it's been 7 years. 7 years of me not talking enough that will have to be reversed. 7 years of him feeling rejected and that probably exacerbating is already low self esteem. 7 years of me financially taking care of the household.

Not that these things can't be worked out, but I'm ready for a different way of life. I've come to really dislike being highly emotionally depended on. My husband is very emotional and really requires my daily validation and reassurance. He really looks to the relationship to make him happy and his life to be much better. I've been the opposite, I'm rather more independent and logical. More of a practical person and am really less into romantic, passionate, all sacrificing love. I'm not thinking feeling pressured to live different than what's natural for me will be comfortable.

As far as support from here, I just want to be able to express myself, put my ambivalent feelings out there, and have conversation as I proceed along this path. I'm essentially choosing the way with a lot of resistance. I'm going to have doubts, I'm going to feel bad. I guess kinda have a community that can reassure me to keep going and why.

That's why spouse and I take a time out when angry about The Thing. To help us watch what we say with each other. Cool off first.



So both of you did that in the marriage? Smile in each other's faces and really be harboring resentments? :confused:

And now you want to stop doing that and be more up front and emotionally authentic? But he wants to keep on with the pattern he knows best because that is easier for him?

I am going to guess. I might guess wrong. I'll also be frank in my guess.



I guess he might be emotionally immature. Like...

He acts out with tantrum stuff when things do not go how he thinks they "should" go. Or you don't behave how he thinks you "should" behave. By having a cow at you, he knows he can shut the conversations down. Then he mistakes "silence" and "lack of relationship conflict" as "relationship harmony."

As a spouse, he does not create safe space for you to come to him with your stuff. You have learned you will not get that here. You have been used to lumping it on your own, or talking to a few friends.

There here comes this poly self awareness. You don't have anyone to talk to about that. Past experience shows you he's not trustworthy in this area because he does not create safe space for you. So now you feel isolated. That's a hard row to hoe. So you want changes. Either for the marriage to become nourishing through him learning new skills so he can provide what has been missing. Or to be free to move on to face these changes in your life without a marriage that drags on you.

He wants you to not change -- so you stay matching the picture in his head. Rather than HIM doing some work to update the picture so it comes to match that way.

He's struggling with you being changing in a way he cannot ignore. Like if you used to love knitting and now you love crochet? That's a change for you, but ignorable for him because it can be filed under "That yarny stuff she does." Doesn't affect him any.

But you changing in a way where you want better/more communication from him, changes in the marriage dynamics? That DOES affect him. And it is not something he can ignore. He has to change behaviors to grow with you or not change behaviors and grow apart.

If he's emotionally immature, he could view all this as "things were fine before she started it! She's being X!"

It's easier to blame the other person than examine how one contributes to the situation making. Much like a little kid who promises to put away his shoes and doesn't? When called into account the child cannot handle the strong feelings that emerge and might flip it around on the parent. "I hate you! You are mean!"

If he's contributing to marriage BLAH by not living up to his marriage vows/promises? Not holding up his end of the stick? You are allowed to bring that to his attention and ask for changes in behavior. Him going "You are mean!" or whatever is not solving the problem.

When conversation gets too uncomfortable for him? Because it is examine HIS behavior too close? If he can change the focus of conversation to behavior YOU did/did not do? Then we are not talking about HIS behavior any more. I suspect that's why all this stuff -- the smoking nurse, your parenting, yada yada. Change the spotlight. Putting the spotlight on you and your behaviors? Takes the spotlight off him and his behaviors.

He doesn't seem to have the emotional honesty skills to go "I feel uncomfortable right now talking about that. I need some time to digest all that before I can respond." That is fair, and you might be willing to work with that. But you do not GET that.​

Is that a close guess to where you might be at? :confused:

Are you in counseling to see if this can work out? And if not, move on to divorce? Has he used up all his strikes in counseling? Like he SAYS he will work on it, but his actions are hemming/hawing/foot dragging, not actually trying?

How can people help you here?

Galagirl
 
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Thanks for more info.

As far as support from here, I just want to be able to express myself, put my ambivalent feelings out there, and have conversation as I proceed along this path. I'm essentially choosing the way with a lot of resistance. I'm going to have doubts, I'm going to feel bad. I guess kinda have a community that can reassure me to keep going and why.

FWIW?

You don't sound all that ambivalent to me. You sound DONE. Done with the marriage and not all that excited about trying to revive it. Kinda like...

  • Even if he did anything now about learning to express himself more?
  • Be more emotionally secure/independent/mature?
  • Give more of a hand either at home with chores or financially?
  • Become less conflict avoidant and become more of a partner in problem solving? Especially when problems are "nip in bud size" and not let them get bigger or fester?

Even if he did all that it would still be "too little too late" for you to want to keep on investing here.

And you are feeling sad about that. But still not wanting to stick around for more of same. You want a fresh start and something new.

That is not ambivalent. Sounds pretty clear to me.

If that's how you feel? I think you should keep going. Be kind, but FIRM, and be honest. Tell him you are done, you are not willing to try continue in marriage. You ARE willing to coparent peacefully as possible.

Then buckle down to file for divorce and keep strong personal boundaries during the transition. As clean and quick as possible. He may try to come to you with all his emotional support needs because that is his HABIT. But as his soon-to-be-ex? It's really isn't your place any more. He could hire individual counseling to help him with his emotional management though a divorce instead. Join a support group. Something NOT you.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks Galagirl. You're very knowledgeable and insightful. It really does help to get things off my chest and get an outside perspective. I guess I maybe used ambivalent because I do wish things were different, but as you said, I have to be firm and move forward. I do get concerned that my firm to him seems mean (I can already be a bit nonchalant.) But also, I kinda feel that him feeling like I'm being mean doesn't matter. If I'm not cursing you all, calling you names, making you look bad in front of our daughter, then to me, its not mean. But, I have been wrong on many occasions about my aloof reactions can be hurtful, I guess. :)

We did have a discussion today, and again, communication is just horrible in our situation. It doesn't help that he's very much the sensitive type and gets defensive really quick. I don't understand that if the type of discussions where you should get defensive are not that often, (I'm not the arguing type) then how come when I am expressing myself, stating facts, simply stating what I dislike about a situation you have to feel attacked? I guess because I personally don't feel attacked unless you are cursing me out, telling me how bad of a person I am, and simply trying to bash. But if you say to me, "how come you keep leaving your panties on the floor." I'll just say "oh, let me pick those up, sorry." Not, "why are you nagging me, I have the right to throw my clothes where I want, you think I'm such a bad person" when clearly its wrong to disrespect the fact that you live in another person's space as well and common areas should not be cluttered with your stuff. But that's just an example and I'm rambling at this point.

Back to our discussion today and how bad communication ties into this. So supposedly he stated that he was going to go along with polyamory this whole time, but because I was not going to guarantee or promise that sex would not ever come into the equation, he said no. I said to him, that is not true because you blatantly told the marriage counseling that pursuing polyamory was a boundary for you. So now you're saying two different things. Also, you continued to tell me that you couldn't be interested in my pursuing polyamory because polyamory and asexuality contradict each other. People who are involved in polyamorous relationships cannot do so without sex. So not only did he make it primarily about sex for me (which I repeatedly said it wasn't, -how do you think I married not on the basis of having a sexual relationship, but all of a sudden now, I'm going to polyamorous and wanna sex everybody all the time) but he also communicated two different things and wanted to define what polyamory was for me. As long as he viewed polyamory for me as me simply hanging out with a close best friend, he would be ok with that. I told him that I was not ok with that.

1. Polyamory means having the opportunity to not be limited in how I express myself with people based on what we consent to. Most likely for me, I won't be that interested in sex (probably more interested in sensual touch, romantics, or really just connecting however it happens, none of that doesn't even have to be involved for me), does not mean I won't do it if it feel right at or for a time with someone, just like I did and still do with him as my former boyfriend, fiancée, and now husband.

2. I do not think its okay for a person to define the relationship of someone else...that's not free

3. Back to having the opportunity to express myself, I am willing to negotiate sexual boundaries with you for the time being, but really, to remain close minded as if this is the only way it will be forever, I can never agree to that. I feel I already erroneously agreed to a situation like that be saying these marriage vows of "forsaking all others" and essentially committing to a lifetime of sexual and emotional exclusivity and monogamy. Won't make that mistake again.

Its been really difficult to communicate number 3 to him, because he overall has rejected polyamory and what it means for me, and has rejected it hard. At this point, I'm not interested in doing any hard convincing him. I feel for him, these things really do come from a monogamous mindset, and that's fine. I respect who people are. One thing I've always expected of any of my relationships, including mine with him, is just be you. If these things really represent who you are that's fine and I don't want to be apart of you feeling like you had to change yourself to accommodate me. That can start from within yourself, but I'm not going to ask you to do it, because I wouldn't want you to require that of me. We're decision making adults here.

Thanks for more info.



FWIW?

You don't sound all that ambivalent to me. You sound DONE. Done with the marriage and not all that excited about trying to revive it. Kinda like...

  • Even if he did anything now about learning to express himself more?
  • Be more emotionally secure/independent/mature?
  • Give more of a hand either at home with chores or financially?
  • Become less conflict avoidant and become more of a partner in problem solving? Especially when problems are "nip in bud size" and not let them get bigger or fester?

Even if he did all that it would still be "too little too late" for you to want to keep on investing here.

And you are feeling sad about that. But still not wanting to stick around for more of same. You want a fresh start and something new.

That is not ambivalent. Sounds pretty clear to me.

If that's how you feel? I think you should keep going. Be kind, but FIRM, and be honest. Tell him you are done, you are not willing to try continue in marriage. You ARE willing to coparent peacefully as possible.

Then buckle down to file for divorce and keep strong personal boundaries during the transition. As clean and quick as possible. He may try to come to you with all his emotional support needs because that is his HABIT. But as his soon-to-be-ex? It's really isn't your place any more. He could hire individual counseling to help him with his emotional management though a divorce instead. Join a support group. Something NOT you.

Galagirl
 
I am glad getting things off your chest helps some. I guess you could vent here if he's doing annoying behaviors? So you can stay calm there and just get this divorce business done efficiently?

FWIW, I agree with you. How YOU define poly for yourself and how YOU would practice poly? That's all up to YOU. He cannot tell you how to run your poly network. That's your stuff.

If you invite him? He can choose to be in your network or not. His willingness to participate in things or not is his stuff. And he chooses no. So end of discussion then. He's not gonna be in your poly network because he does not want that. And you cannot force him.

So your poly stuff no longer applies to him. Why keep picking at it? He might try to, but you don't have to join him in the picking. Just side step it. He can pick by himself or with his counselor. Just not you.

I do get concerned that my firm to him seems mean (to him)

If you are not ACTUALLY being mean to him? Then you are not being mean to him.

His perceptions are just that. His perceptions. They may be erroneous. They may be emotional. They may be something else. That is what having his own individual counselor is for. To support him and help him sort his stuff out. Because helping him sort his stuff out is just NOT your job any more as you un-couple.

You are no longer his relationship sounding board and you def not his therapist. You are his STBX wife.

As a kindness you might still be willing to do small helpful stuff like make dinner so you can all eat together with kid til you are in separate homes. But you don't have to be doing ALL the things you used to do. Some of them you can start letting go. You consciously start to UN-couple.

How come when I am expressing myself, stating facts, simply stating what I dislike about a situation you have to feel attacked?

Because he does poor listening. He does not do active listening. Those are his personal communication skills that need work. Not yours.

So let him attend to improving them or leaving them the same. Not your job to do his personal growth for him. You have to un-couple from that stuff too. Maybe as his wife you used to encourage him to do his personal growth stuff. But as his STBX? You can stop doing that and let him deal with it (or not) on his own.

Keep your focus. Do your present job. Which is to do your share of the paperwork. Nose to grindstone. Get the divorce train to the last station.

he stated that he was going to go along with polyamory this whole time, but because I was not going to guarantee or promise that sex would not ever come into the equation, he said no. I said to him, that is not true because you blatantly told the marriage counseling that pursuing polyamory was a boundary for you. So now you're saying two different things."

To me? It sounds like you fell in the circular conversation trap. As soon as you start arguing "what is true and not true" or "what was really said or not said?" What happens really? Waste of time, energy, effort.

  • He's not going to do poly how you want.
  • You are not going to do poly how he wants because he wants to micromanage you.

So not a match. Less energy spent just accepting that and not playing the "what you really said" game with him.

At this point, I'm not interested in doing any hard convincing him. I feel for him, these things really do come from a monogamous mindset, and that's fine.

Could remember to stick to YOUR goal in bold there. If he wants to witter around in circle convo, that is HIS goal. He can find a willing partner for that dance. You are not it. You can stick to YOUR goal.

I love the phrase "Ok. I heard you." It does not mean I agree. It means my ears are operational.

Replay that convo with a new answer:

Him: I was going to go along with polyamory this whole time, but because you were not going to guarantee or promise that sex would not ever come into the equation, I said no.

You: Ok. I heard you. You said no.​

That meets your goal of not doing any hard convincing. No getting sucked into circle convo. No JADE.

Still not compatible. Still on the divorce train, trying to bring it in to the last station so you can get off the train and not ride around with him any more.

Could work for any of the things you listed. Watch:

Him: "how come you keep leaving your panties on the floor?"

You: "Ok. I heard you. I am taking that as a request not to litter with clothing. That is a reasonable request. Let me remove them and apologize. I am sorry about that." (Because not littering a shared home with clothes IS fair, even if how he "asks" is not really asking but just being huffy.)​

Or this one...

Him: "(I think) You can't be interested in pursuing polyamory because polyamory and asexuality contradict each other."

You: "Ok. I heard you."

No further words needed because who is in charge of how you poly? YOU. Are you gonna poly with him? Nope. So he can think whatever. Save your breath.​

That one phrase you might find quite liberating. "Ok. I heard you." And you stop there with nothing else. No JADE because his topic is NOT a business topic, kid topic, or a house topic. And if his topic IS a business topic or a house topic you can add a few extra words to address it. ONCE.

If he thinks you are being "mean" because you won't play circle convo? Guess what the answer is?

"Ok. I hear you. You think I'm mean because I don't do circle convo."​

End of story. You just keep the train moving -- solve divorce papers and custody papers and all that. Stay ON topic.

Don't be surprised if he starts making jobs for you to do "help me mend this coat" stuff or he tries to pick fights or whatever. Because the logic there might be "If she's busy doing these things here, she's not busy leaving me."

Stay the course, do your main job. Get that train into the last station. Don't be veering off track with distractions. Be kind but FIRM.

Back to having the opportunity to express myself, I am willing to negotiate sexual boundaries with you for the time being

If the goal is to un-couple and divorce? I think you could stop sharing sex with him. No more willing to negotiate sex boundaries. Just... no sex. And no sex with anyone new at this point. Then this whole "sexual boundaries" conversation longer applies here and you can focus on getting the divorce paper work settled. And when you are with a new partner and ready to deal with new sex boundaries? Still doesn't apply to him. Cuz now he's your ex-husband and it isn't his place.

Keep all this way easier on yourself.

You will have your own feelings and things to process and you might want your own support in the form of an individual counselor. Just don't be processing how you feel with him. Don't give your STBX husband false hopes you are changing your mind and don't give him ammo to use either. Just give him basic polite. Kind but firm.

You have to coparent with him and be cordial but you don't have to be best friend snuggle bunnies any more. YKWIM?

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks

I am glad getting things off your chest helps some. I guess you could vent here if he's doing annoying behaviors? So you can stay calm there and just get this divorce business done efficiently?

FWIW, I agree with you. How YOU define poly for yourself and how YOU would practice poly? That's all up to YOU. He cannot tell you how to run your poly network. That's your stuff.

If you invite him? He can choose to be in your network or not. His willingness to participate in things or not is his stuff. And he chooses no. So end of discussion then. He's not gonna be in your poly network because he does not want that. And you cannot force him.

So your poly stuff no longer applies to him. Why keep picking at it? He might try to, but you don't have to join him in the picking. Just side step it. He can pick by himself or with his counselor. Just not you.



If you are not ACTUALLY being mean to him? Then you are not being mean to him.

His perceptions are just that. His perceptions. They may be erroneous. They may be emotional. They may be something else. That is what having his own individual counselor is for. To support him and help him sort his stuff out. Because helping him sort his stuff out is just NOT your job any more as you un-couple.

You are no longer his relationship sounding board and you def not his therapist. You are his STBX wife.

As a kindness you might still be willing to do small helpful stuff like make dinner so you can all eat together with kid til you are in separate homes. But you don't have to be doing ALL the things you used to do. Some of them you can start letting go. You consciously start to UN-couple.



Because he does poor listening. He does not do active listening. Those are his personal communication skills that need work. Not yours.

So let him attend to improving them or leaving them the same. Not your job to do his personal growth for him. You have to un-couple from that stuff too. Maybe as his wife you used to encourage him to do his personal growth stuff. But as his STBX? You can stop doing that and let him deal with it (or not) on his own.

Keep your focus. Do your present job. Which is to do your share of the paperwork. Nose to grindstone. Get the divorce train to the last station.



To me? It sounds like you fell in the circular conversation trap. As soon as you start arguing "what is true and not true" or "what was really said or not said?" What happens really? Waste of time, energy, effort.

  • He's not going to do poly how you want.
  • You are not going to do poly how he wants because he wants to micromanage you.

So not a match. Less energy spent just accepting that and not playing the "what you really said" game with him.



Could remember to stick to YOUR goal in bold there. If he wants to witter around in circle convo, that is HIS goal. He can find a willing partner for that dance. You are not it. You can stick to YOUR goal.

I love the phrase "Ok. I heard you." It does not mean I agree. It means my ears are operational.

Replay that convo with a new answer:

Him: I was going to go along with polyamory this whole time, but because you were not going to guarantee or promise that sex would not ever come into the equation, I said no.

You: Ok. I heard you. You said no.​

That meets your goal of not doing any hard convincing. No getting sucked into circle convo. No JADE.

Still not compatible. Still on the divorce train, trying to bring it in to the last station so you can get off the train and not ride around with him any more.

Could work for any of the things you listed. Watch:

Him: "how come you keep leaving your panties on the floor?"

You: "Ok. I heard you. I am taking that as a request not to litter with clothing. That is a reasonable request. Let me remove them and apologize. I am sorry about that." (Because not littering a shared home with clothes IS fair, even if how he "asks" is not really asking but just being huffy.)​

Or this one...

Him: "(I think) You can't be interested in pursuing polyamory because polyamory and asexuality contradict each other."

You: "Ok. I heard you."

No further words needed because who is in charge of how you poly? YOU. Are you gonna poly with him? Nope. So he can think whatever. Save your breath.​

That one phrase you might find quite liberating. "Ok. I heard you." And you stop there with nothing else. No JADE because his topic is NOT a business topic, kid topic, or a house topic. And if his topic IS a business topic or a house topic you can add a few extra words to address it. ONCE.

If he thinks you are being "mean" because you won't play circle convo? Guess what the answer is?

"Ok. I hear you. You think I'm mean because I don't do circle convo."​

End of story. You just keep the train moving -- solve divorce papers and custody papers and all that. Stay ON topic.

Don't be surprised if he starts making jobs for you to do "help me mend this coat" stuff or he tries to pick fights or whatever. Because the logic there might be "If she's busy doing these things here, she's not busy leaving me."

Stay the course, do your main job. Get that train into the last station. Don't be veering off track with distractions. Be kind but FIRM.



If the goal is to un-couple and divorce? I think you could stop sharing sex with him. No more willing to negotiate sex boundaries. Just... no sex. And no sex with anyone new at this point. Then this whole "sexual boundaries" conversation longer applies here and you can focus on getting the divorce paper work settled. And when you are with a new partner and ready to deal with new sex boundaries? Still doesn't apply to him. Cuz now he's your ex-husband and it isn't his place.

Keep all this way easier on yourself.

You will have your own feelings and things to process and you might want your own support in the form of an individual counselor. Just don't be processing how you feel with him. Don't give your STBX husband false hopes you are changing your mind and don't give him ammo to use either. Just give him basic polite. Kind but firm.

You have to coparent with him and be cordial but you don't have to be best friend snuggle bunnies any more. YKWIM?

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
Power in Relationships

This is not super poly related, I don't think, but as I go through the break down of a mono relationship in pursuit of the poly life, I am doing a lot of reflection on my relationship skills or lack thereof. One thing that seems to have been an issue in my withering relationship is power imbalance. I'm still trying to understand it. The power imbalance was usually related to money. I managed money better, was more ambitious, and therefore made and continued to make increadingly more money. I also remained the more frugal one, so yes at times I preferred choosing to save, think twice about spending money on certain things, and let money sit for a while.

I will admit, because I worked so hard for the money, I just didnt easily want to let it go. I didn't want to feel like my labor was just blown. Yes, my ambition was rooted in work hard so I had some sense of security that things on life were taken care of in addition to being able to enjoy it some. But, my desire for security and frugality was an issue. I will admit, I maintained the attitude that if I earned it, at the end of the day, I should be able to decide how to spend it. I was already taking care of most of the things financially of the home/child expenses in addition to working, continued education, and still being a mom. Overall, I just feel that all able bodied adults should exhaust their options when it comes to earning potential unless there is another agreement. My issue was never matching dollar amounts, but was attempting to share in equitable effort according to ones ability.

I'm not sure if it's ok to take the easier less stressful route, but want to rely on the stressful labors and fruits of another but call it partnership. I do feel I did my part with carrying the household financially, but if a new car wanted to be purchased that I didn't want in my budget, it seems that I was wrongly pulling a power card by saying I don't want to pay that, or pay that amount, or if that's something you want, I'm not willing to finance it because your efforts aren't going into it.

Based on a story my stbx told me about a friend, now I'm wondering if gender played a role. A male friend of his who's married to a woman (who is a felon) who does not work. She has a child she doesn't have custody of (so not sure if financial obligations) and chooses to/cannot/does not need to work because the live in a rather cheap rural area on the in laws property so expenses are low and the husband's income is enough. When they were shopping for homes, the wife suggested a home that had more upgrades. My husband tells me his friend flat out said to the wife "well, are you gonna get out there and work to help pay for it." Now me, I understand his position, he knows what his income can cover and to me, he was simply stating that I'll need your help to cover this thing that you desire to have. I don't see that as he pulled the power card. Now I understand as the breadwinner, you cannot just be an overlord that essentially never shares, but I guess I'm not understanding power imbalance, especially when it comes to money.

Not trying find it make excuses, but wanting to understand, if that's possible for me to do.
 
Overall, I just feel that all able bodied adults should exhaust their options when it comes to earning potential unless there is another agreement. My issue was never matching dollar amounts, but was attempting to share in equitable effort according to ones ability.

I don't see a problem with that.

I do feel I did my part with carrying the household financially, but if a new car wanted to be purchased that I didn't want in my budget, it seems that I was wrongly pulling a power card by saying I don't want to pay that, or pay that amount, or if that's something you want, I'm not willing to finance it because your efforts aren't going into it.

Are you saying your spouse wanted a fancy car for him? And you said no, that is not something you want to come out of joint checking? So then he accused you of playing a power card or being stingy or something? :confused:

Galagirl
 
Yeah, probably called stingy. Car wasn't fancy, but really was not in the budget, or essentially would have been paid for me and my efforts. Well, its in the past now.

I don't see a problem with that.



Are you saying your spouse wanted a fancy car for him? And you said no, that is not something you want to come out of joint checking? So then he accused you of playing a power card or being stingy or something? :confused:

Galagirl
 
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