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  #11  
Old 06-30-2020, 03:14 PM
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vinsanity0 vinsanity0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouAreHere View Post
Sounds like maybe we're conflating codependency with entanglement a bit? Some level of entanglement is fine, I think. Trying an activity to do with a partner, getting to know their friends and family - that's all part of getting closer to someone.

But it needs to be in both directions, and once you start losing your sense of self and subsuming yourself to the relationship, I think that's where things start going wrong.
I think when we talk about disentanglement we are talking about a level of entanglement that at least verges on codependency. Dingedheart seems to have conflated that with any level of entanglement.
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  #12  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:48 PM
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Re (from dingedheart):
Quote:
"Thanks for sharing your story. Were they open prior to you becoming involved?"
No, they weren't.

Re:
Quote:
"How did they decide to open up their marriage?"
Snowbunny (the wife) and I fell in love, at the time we did not know about poly, Snowbunny did some web research and discovered poly, then she sat down with her husband and asked him if he would be willing to try it. Mind you, he did not say yes right away. They had many talks over the course of about a year. Eventually he said okay.

Re:
Quote:
"Did they do any of the disentangling steps or prep prior to opening?"
I don't think they did any disentangling per se. They did make room in their schedules for me, both me with just Snowbunny and me with both of them (platonic activities). He and I (I refer to him here as Brother-Husband) also have platonic activities together, mostly watching stuff on TV.

Re:
Quote:
"And how did you all decide to live together, and how long had you been dating at that point?"
I actually lived with them (part-time) before Snowbunny and I developed feelings for each other.

Re:
Quote:
"Also you said they observed or celebrated the 25th wedding anniversary. Was this a big thing for them or was it exchanging cards and dinner at your favorite taco place?"
If I remember right, they did a road trip and ate out together, at a new place (new for us) called Farm to Table. Brother-Husband gave the restaurant rave reviews, and said he wants me to try it in the future.

I think they would have taken a plane out of state and spent at least a couple of days at a hotel or whatnot ... were it not for the Covid crisis. They might do something more extravagant for their anniversary next year.

Re:
Quote:
"It's interesting that you said you're okay with that ... and I completely believe you are okay with that, but I wonder if, subconsciously or maybe consciously, if a mono spouse such as myself way back when wasn't trying to say, 'Here's one thing you can't take away.'"
To be honest Snowbunny "wears the pants" in this house, and it's primarily her idea to keep the anniversaries going. I will say she makes the right call, as Brother-Husband is a holiday-and-special-occasion type of guy, and he would be sorely disappointed if their anniversaries went away. Heck and as for me, maybe my okayness is my way of saying, "Here's one thing I won't take away."

Regards,
Kevin T.
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  #13  
Old 07-01-2020, 04:20 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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I was going to do one of those massive multi-post-quote replies - but my concentration isn't up to it ...so this may be a bit choppy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
... recent thread about the conundrum of an established poly couple where the husband sort of breaking established tradition and asking or expecting to be granted the entire weekend vs the usual solo overnight or date night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
..would it be smart and easier to stipulate as part of the disentangling process that either person needs to bother with whatever was ď the usualĒ when it comes to wedding anniversaries because in actuality the old marriage is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
I know for myself it would have been freeing in a way because more than once I had to scrabble having slipped on the date. I think my mom called once said congratulations and what were our plans or something and asked what....Ē oh fuck ď pull the team together and get something done by 6pm so I donít have to listen to that the rest of my life. ��
As a person (female) who doesn't particularly care about anniversaries and "special" days ALL of the above seems super-stress-y and unnecessary!

There is a prominent stereotype out there that when a woman says "no really, don't get me anything" what she means is "read my mind and you better get it right!"

My husband (and now Dude) know me well enough to know that when I say "I don't care." I meant that I actually, factually, really don't care. Do NOT buy me flowers! (waste of money, they are already DEAD). Do NOT buy me jewelry or perfume (waste of money, I don't wear it). Do NOT buy me chocolate (I don't like it, buy yourSELF chocolate if you want to eat it.)

Dude was shocked that MrS and I had made zero plans for our 20th wedding anniversary (we are amused if one of us actually remembers to say Happy Anniversary!)- so he arranged for us all to go Go-Karting - Yay ! Fun !

This has nothing to do with the old marriage being dead - and everything to do with a person's preferences. As to the old marriage being "dead" - well, now, that depends on the terms of the marriage. I (and a few other folks on this forum) went into our marriages with the understanding that monogamy and sexual exclusivity was NOT part of the deal. So these are actually two separate issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
The reason I have ladies golf clubs in the garage is my wife thought she wanted to play with me or us as a family. She might have also wanted to be with the corporate big dogs or pretend at charity golf outing but the fact remains her golf clubs her bicycle her skis, an extra kayak was purchased and invested in to further entangle her into something she had minimal interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Or is it for established couples the practical release from activities that you really didnít want to do but agreed to out of the lack of something better to do.
Again, to me this seems like an entirely different problem - why in the world would you spend time and money (limited resources) doing ANYTHING that didn't appeal to you?!?! Sure, rent a set of >whatever< and give it a try but to buy gear before you know you love it? Weird. There are any number of things that I am interested in that I don't have time to pursue, I don't really understand why anyone agrees to do things that they didn't want to.

(Perhaps I am fortunate, the boys have no problem going off and doing whatever on their own or with each other - regardless of whether I am interested or not. i like to be given the option, but don't feel any pressure to participate if it doesn't interest me.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
As we all know time is a zero sum game and as we go off and do new and different activities with our new partners should we consider how entangling those activities are ??
In my mind, yes - if I am considering taking up a new interest (with a partner, friend, or by myself) then I consider what, in my life time/money/attention-wise I have to give up (in terms of time, money, etc.) in order to accommodate the new activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
.. Clearly several member thought that disentangling their finances was going to be the key. I really have doubts about that but I hope she keeps us updated.
I was one of the ones that probably advocated clarifying the finances in terms of his/hers/theirs. To be fair, I don't think that is the "key" but many people seem to "key in" on financial discrepancies as the "root" of their conflict. (i.e. "she spends our/my money on him"). I think money is a a convenient "straw-man" in these conflicts - if you whittle away the objections about financial fairness (by having a defined division of household vs. fun money) they you can winnow problems down to the actual problem.
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  #14  
Old 07-01-2020, 07:13 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post
I was going to do one of those massive multi-post-quote replies - but my concentration isn't up to it ...so this may be a bit choppy!







As a person (female) who doesn't particularly care about anniversaries and "special" days ALL of the above seems super-stress-y and unnecessary!
And that was more or less communicated on the first few anniversaries and or ď special daysĒ ...you taught him what the expectation is or was. Correct ?


Quote:
There is a prominent stereotype out there that when a woman says "no really, don't get me anything" what she means is "read my mind and you better get it right!"
I never had that experience she never said donít get me anything. And in the early yrs she expected some sort of a gesture or remembrance.


Quote:
My husband (and now Dude) know me well enough to know that when I say "I don't care." I meant that I actually, factually, really don't care. Do NOT buy me flowers! (waste of money, they are already DEAD). Do NOT buy me jewelry or perfume (waste of money, I don't wear it). Do NOT buy me chocolate (I don't like it, buy yourSELF chocolate if you want to eat it.)
Makes complete sense and the world would be a better place with more practical and logical people in it.


Quote:
Dude was shocked that MrS and I had made zero plans for our 20th wedding anniversary (we are amused if one of us actually remembers to say Happy Anniversary!)- so he arranged for us all to go Go-Karting - Yay ! Fun !
To me this is sort of funny too in what different peoples expectations are.


Quote:
This has nothing to do with the old marriage being dead - and everything to do with a person's preferences. As to the old marriage being "dead" - well, now, that depends on the terms of the marriage. I (and a few other folks on this forum) went into our marriages with the understanding that monogamy and sexual exclusivity was NOT part of the deal. So these are actually two separate issues.
The article and concept of disentangling was for couples that had an established or long standing mono marriage and were taking steps to open the marriage. The old routines and activities are re-evaluated to make room for time spent doing new activities with a new person. Great point on personal preference but couldnít one argue that the path to co- dependency is NOT establishing those preferences whether itís with a spouse on the front end of a marriage about golf or having public sex with a bf/lover Or vis Vera public sex with husband and golf with BF.


Quote:
In my mind, yes - if I am considering taking up a new interest (with a partner, friend, or by myself) then I consider what, in my life time/money/attention-wise I have to give up (in terms of time, money, etc.) in order to accommodate the new activity.
A very practical and logical position however during the NRE phase people donít always think that way.



Quote:
I was one of the ones that probably advocated clarifying the finances in terms of his/hers/theirs. To be fair, I don't think that is the "key" but many people seem to "key in" on financial discrepancies as the "root" of their conflict. (i.e. "she spends our/my money on him"). I think money is a a convenient "straw-man" in these conflicts - if you whittle away the objections about financial fairness (by having a defined division of household vs. fun money) they you can winnow problems down to the actual problem.
No ...youíre thinking of a different thread. As far as I remember you did not post on the one I participated on/ the one I linked.

The one I was referring to was wifey got bored with hubby after about 5 yrs ...pushed to open up ...hubby never enthusiastic about this and struggled with her dating multiple men so she decides to ď settle down ď with one guy. The guy she selected just happen to be a broke Unemployed pot smoking Stud. His main talent and job was /is banging her. He continually asks for money and because she doesnít work she has to turn around and ask hubby who not into paying that guy to fuck his wife. Paraphrasing/summarizing.

Recently Hubby either gets tired of his situation or decides to take full advantage of his open marriage and is Motivated to loses weight, buys a new wardrobe...get professional photos done for his dating profile and guess what ...he bags a young hot thing and NOW his wife is seriously threatened by the ď bimbo ď and she wants to quite poly. The money aspect of the thread is hubby has a great job and income and heís pay for wife and friends to go on trips and vacations but wonít do the same for pot smoking Bf. Lots of people were fixated on the money flow from the husband as being the key issue on that thread. I donít think so.
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  #15  
Old 07-02-2020, 06:21 AM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Thanks again Kev for sharing. Was this story/ facts out on the forum. I don’t recall any of this. I thought you wife having Alzheimer’s was sort of the driving force behind you being poly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Re (from dingedheart):


No, they weren't.

Re:


Snowbunny (the wife) and I fell in love, at the time we did not know about poly, Snowbunny did some web research and discovered poly, then she sat down with her husband and asked him if he would be willing to try it. Mind you, he did not say yes right away. They had many talks over the course of about a year. Eventually he said okay.
So this started from an emotional affair or was cheating / sex going on ??

Quote:
I don't think they did any disentangling per se. They did make room in their schedules for me, both me with just Snowbunny and me with both of them (platonic activities). He and I (I refer to him here as Brother-Husband) also have platonic activities together, mostly watching stuff on TV.
I think that counts. Would you say they’re pretty independent and didn’t need such disentangling? Do you and snowbunny go on vacations or extended trips , etc ? In Your blog it always sounds like the 3 of you.



Quote:

I actually lived with them (part-time) before Snowbunny and I developed feelings for each other.
.

How did that happen and did that continue after the announcement of the 2 of you falling in love ?

Quote:
If I remember right, they did a road trip and ate out together, at a new place (new for us) called Farm to Table. Brother-Husband gave the restaurant rave reviews, and said he wants me to try it in the future.

I think they would have taken a plane out of state and spent at least a couple of days at a hotel or whatnot ... were it not for the Covid crisis. They might do something more extravagant for their anniversary next year.
And your anniversary with Snowbunny ? Same Same?

Quote:
To be honest Snowbunny "wears the pants" in this house, and it's primarily her idea to keep the anniversaries going. I will say she makes the right call, as Brother-Husband is a holiday-and-special-occasion type of guy, and he would be sorely disappointed if their anniversaries went away. Heck and as for me, maybe my okayness is my way of saying, "Here's one thing I won't take away."

Regards,
Kevin T.
Do you remember what happened the first yr you were part of the clan ?? Was he excited and psyched up for it then ? It sound like it could have been pretty fragile the first couple of yrs and even her wearing the pants and pushing something like this if he’s turned the other way in which he doesn’t care about such things any more it really ceases to have the desired effect it could easily be dropped.

Last edited by dingedheart; 07-02-2020 at 06:24 AM.
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:14 PM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Re:
Quote:
"Thanks again Kev for sharing. Was this story/facts out on the forum? I don't recall any of this."
You should be able to review all of those facts/story in the first two posts of my blog. Brother-Husband is listed (in those posts) as BH, Snowbunny as LH (which stands for "Lady Hinge"). My wife is listed as LV.

Re:
Quote:
"I thought your wife having Alzheimer's was sort of the driving force behind you being poly."
I guess you could say that that was part of the equation behind the increasing involvement/closeness between the four of us (BH, LH, LV, and me). Although what really changed things between LH (Snowbunny) and me (from platonic to romantic) was the increasingly-long emails the two of us exchanged.

Re:
Quote:
"So this started from an emotional affair or was cheating/sex going on?"
I guess you could call it an emotional affair ... although Snowbunny did tell her husband early on about her feelings for me. I would even say that that was not entirely news to him; she and I were already spending a lot of time together (with his blessing), and he would jokingly say to her that I was "her boyfriend."

Re:
Quote:
"Re:
Quote:
'I don't think they did any disentangling per se. They did make room in their schedules for me, both me with just Snowbunny and me with both of them. He and I also have platonic activities together, mostly watching stuff on TV.'
I think that counts. Would you say they're pretty independent and didn't need such disentangling?"
I suppose they weren't overly entangled. Depends on how you define it. I wouldn't say they were attached at the hip.

Re:
Quote:
"Do you and Snowbunny go on vacations or extended trips, etc.?"
We've spent up to a week at a time, just the two of us, in Utah. We've done that two or three times. Other times, all three of us stayed in Utah.

Quote:
"In your blog it always sounds like the three of you."
We do quite a bit of stuff together as a trio, but we also do quite a bit of stuff together just two at a time.

Re:
Quote:
"Re:
Quote:
'I actually lived with them before Snowbunny and I developed feelings for each other.'
How did that happen and did that continue after the announcement of the two of you falling in love?"
The living together happened partly as a way to make it easier for the three of us to take care of LV ... but it also happened as just four friends who wanted to live together. Yes it continued after Snowbunny and I developed the feelings for each other.

Re:
Quote:
"Re:
Quote:
'If I remember right, they did a road trip and ate out together, at a new place called Farm to Table. Brother-Husband gave the restaurant rave reviews, and said he wants me to try it in the future.
I think they would have taken a plane out of state and spent at least a couple of days at a hotel or whatnot ... were it not for the Covid crisis. They might do something more extravagant for their anniversary next year.'
And your anniversary with Snowbunny? Same same?"
Nothing for just the two of us. We do have moderate celebrations (eating out at a nice place) for the anniversaries of our three-person handfasting. The three of us do that together.

Re:
Quote:
"Do you remember what happened the first year you were part of the clan?"
To my best recollection, he and she had their "regular" anniversary celebration just as they would have if I had not been there. I did not take part in that celebration, and have not in any of the years since then. Which is fine by me, I'm not what you'd call a holiday-and-special-occasion type of guy anyway.

Re:
Quote:
"Was he excited and psyched up for it then?"
I would say he was pretty excited about the new poly arrangement, but if you are asking about their first anniversary after the poly started, then yes, I would say that he was pretty excited about that celebration as well. Brother-Husband doesn't usually overthink things, and he is good at living in the moment.

Re:
Quote:
"It sounds like it could have been pretty fragile the first couple of years, and even her wearing the pants and pushing something like this, if he's turned the other way in which he doesn't care about such things anymore, it really ceases to have the desired effect; it could easily be dropped."
It's fair to say that we had some fragile/rough times during our first few years together, but those were just difficulties in getting along together and in making things work. I would not say that we were having second thoughts about being poly with each other, we were just having some struggles about how to make it all work.

Also I would not say that their marriage was weakened in any way, nor was their desire to celebrate their anniversaries weakened. I guess you could say their anniversaries are compartmentalized. They are not grouped together with our poly status. When they are celebrating their anniversaries, I am "just a friend." It's always been like that.

I don't know if I have read all your questions correctly, and I don't know if I have replied in the way you had in mind. If not, just ask me some follow-up questions, I'm always glad to answer questions.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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  #17  
Old 07-08-2020, 10:02 AM
Tinwen Tinwen is offline
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I only read the initial post so far, not the rest of the tread.

I think disentanglement is mostly about letting go of "automatic" expectations (and likely also, as you say, letting go of activities that you never enjoyed so deeply anyway). The post that got disentanglement popular talks about not assuming your partner is gonna be home and available every night. Same could be said about assuming you are (your primary is) the automatic +1 to events. Though you may want to keep that kind of couple privilege for activities that you do enjoy the most together.

If you, in the process of "disentanglement", let go of activities that truly made you feel connected with your partner, then you definitelly went too far. However, if both really enjoyed the activity, this error is usually easily corrected.

Most regrets imho happen if one of the partners enjoyed an activity (say, for example, having diner at the same time everyday), but the other only complied to please. When the activity is gone, one feels more free, the other is missing it. But that's more like highlighting a problem that was there all along.

Do you agree?
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  #18  
Old 07-08-2020, 11:24 AM
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Dagferi Dagferi is offline
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DH... In the post you are talking about the OP never once mentioned giving up the pot smoking stud just the husband giving up the bimbo.
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:42 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Sorry but maybe my life is a tad to busy to be writing threads I havenít had time to get back and answer.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagferi View Post
DH... In the post you are talking about the OP never once mentioned giving up the pot smoking stud just the husband giving up the bimbo.
Iíd have to reread it to say definitively yes or No on that specific point. I think it was implied she wanted to go back to mono from the title of her thread.

I thought that thread could have discussion points on disentangling the money ...and general expectations.....maybe she disentangled too much ?? She was quite happy when it was all her way and it all changed when he decided to jump in the pool.
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:07 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinwen View Post
I only read the initial post so far, not the rest of the tread.

I think disentanglement is mostly about letting go of "automatic" expectations (and likely also, as you say, letting go of activities that you never enjoyed so deeply anyway). The post that got disentanglement popular talks about not assuming your partner is gonna be home and available every night. Same could be said about assuming you are (your primary is) the automatic +1 to events. Though you may want to keep that kind of couple privilege for activities that you do enjoy the most together.
Itís been awhile since I read the article so I canít quote any specifics. But the umbrella seemed pretty large and to me at the time I wondered if the word was correct in its direct usage and intent. By that I mean itís really a method of conditioning. And the intent is to create gaps and space in schedule and routines to allow for a new romantic interest. And then the practical logic ...Iím going to disentangle from my married partner to entangle with someone or others romantically.

Quote:
If you, in the process of "disentanglement", let go of activities that truly made you feel connected with your partner, then you definitelly went too far. However, if both really enjoyed the activity, this error is usually easily corrected.
I stopped wearing my wedding band and I definitely stopped amusing even when she was home she was available. I also wasnít overly eager to engage in the new system. If that makes any sense. I thought Iíd sit back and see / watch what her interests and desires were.


Quote:
Most regrets imho happen if one of the partners enjoyed an activity (say, for example, having diner at the same time everyday), but the other only complied to please. When the activity is gone, one feels more free, the other is missing it. But that's more like highlighting a problem that was there all along.

Do you agree?
Is this example a case of unintended consequences like be careful what you wish for?

I think the Big regrets are when people are shocked to learn someone seemly did stuff for yrs that they didnít really enjoy....I canít think of a really good example but letís just say Camping. And then 15 yrs later in therapy or something it comes out and youíre looking at the person questioning what the hell else is there you thought you knew.
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