How to love oneself?

Eudoxia

New member
Hello there

I've been reading this forum for a while now but have not quite mustered the courage to take part in conversations... Now, however, things happened in my life and I thought to ask if you would have any sort of advice for me or if you could suggest resources as I am not sure where to look. My issue is not strictly "poly relationship" issue so if this is a wrong place, I apologize and I suppose moderator can move this post.

I'll try to be as clear as I can.

Background

I am 30+ woman living with my nesting partner of 15 years, Lewis. He is also my first boyfriend so am reaaaally inexperienced when it comes to relationships and especially break ups; I have never broken up with anyone. Lewis was not, however, my first sexual experience, but it's not like I was very experienced in that front either. I was an awkward, lonely kid and considered myself ugly and undesirable to my late teens. Romance & sex came into picture around 3-4 months before I met Lewis and, well, from then on it was pretty much just him (except for certain hiccups that slowly convinced me I am non-mono minded, but that's a long story).

Around a year ago we opened our relationship, after toying and sliding towards non-mono situation for several years. Currently I have one steady partner besides Lewis, whom I'll call Sean. Lewis has another partner as well, Rose. Everything is good in regards to these relationships. In fact, I would say, things have gone almost surprisingly well considering we are newbies and I have pretty severe self-esteem issues. It's just that my relationship with Lewis is really good, we trust each other and we are understanding and forgiving. And we communicate. So things are good. Yay.

Ah, I need to say a couple of things about Sean. I never really "dated" Sean. In fact, we've been good friends years before anything sexual happened between us and little by little we slipped into this deep, intimate friendship with a substantial sexual element. So, again - no dating experience accumulated on this front, either... nor skills to handle that sort of things. This is relevant, I suppose.

The Date

Recently I reconnected with an old fling from before Lewis, Richard (I was into him then, he not so much and he called things off after 2 sleepovers). I'll omit a lot of details because otherwise, this will be a LONG story. Anyhoo, I still find Richard very desirable and interesting, and this time it seems he's interested in me, too. As we start chatting, he's the one to suggest a meeting and our chats did become pretty sexual rather quickly. Just a day before our meeting he's sending me these expectant messages and I was honestly hyped up and very flattered.

But then, the date... I mean, it wasn't bad, but not good, either. Lukewarm. We did have sex and it was enjoyable, but there was no passion, really. He didn't really engage with me and I just felt awkward and uncomfortable most of the time. He talked a lot about his other dates and would leave me waiting while he did some other things. This really perplexed me because, as said, he had seemed excited and eager to meet me, but all that was gone even before I got over the threshold. And when we exchanged couple of messages after the date, he made it pretty clear he has no interest in meeting me again.

The difficulty

My reaction to all this was very poor. Heartbreak, again. I was floored. What happened?? Why? Did I do something wrong? Did I say something? Was I too fat? Too ugly? Too boring and uninteresting? What is wrong with me?!

I felt utterly rejected, undesirable and disappointed. I felt like I had had this major chance and somehow I had fucked it up but had no idea how. Confused, sad and lonely. Ack.

Well, I will get over that. I have no idea what happened but I do not think the date is the core issue here; my reactions are.

The interpretation

I've been mulling over this and I've come to the following conclusions:

1. I suck at managing expectations. I expected a LOT from this date and in retrospect, most of my expectations had no basis in reality. It seems I read way more into my interactions with Richard than he did. He actually dates a lot so I would guess he had something much more casual in mind than I. He never promised me anything nor did he lead me on - this is all on me. I hoped for this and that, and when nothing I hoped for materialized, I was left broken and sad.

2. I take everything personally. As you can see, immediately after Richard's "thank you, but no thank you", I flew into self-blaming mode. I mean, there just must be something horribly wrong with me if he's not interested in having more contact me with, right?? So I felt completely rejected and disgusting.

The ultimate problem

Now, honestly, I would love to be friends with Richard, sexual or non-sexual, I don't really care. I just find him interesting, intelligent and charming. It seems, however, that once again the feeling is not mutual and this is entirely out of my control. I cannot make him interested in me so this issue I must drop and move on. It's not like this is a love story of the century anyways... I barely know the guy. :cool:

But, what I Do have control over is me myself. I would like to work on those two points I mentioned above, expectation management and self-esteem issues. Yeah, things with Richard didn't pan out and while I do not plan dive into dating per se, I'm sure there will be some action with other people besides Lewis and Sean somewhere in the future. And I would like to be able to handle it better than I did now.

So. Finally. My question is: how do I do that???? How do I learn to adjust my expectations to a proper level? How do I learn to relax and to take things as they are instead of jumping way ahead and building elaborate scenarios in my head?

And, even more importantly, how do I learn to love myself? How do you guys do that?... Even at best I barely tolerate myself. :( I don't want to take things this personally. I know, logically, that there is nothing wrong with me even if Richard is not into me. It's not like I've been into every single person who's interested in me and I do not think it's because there's something wrong with them. Just, no chemistry.

Are there books I could read? Exercises I could do? Any ideas? I do not even know where to start looking...

End notes

If you've read all of this, I sincerely thank you for your time and effort. :D

Also, English is not my first language so I apologize for any mistakes and if I sound somehow unpolite or weird. That's just because I might always be able to express myself properly in English.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.

First, there's nothing wrong with you - you have little dating experience, so you had wrong expectations, and reacted when they were not fulfilled. If it's only a dating issue, this will correct by itself as you continue to gain more experience with your eyes open. You already did a lot of work here by naming the issue.

But if you really want to work on your mindset in life, you could take several different paths, which sometimes seem opposite, but are really complementary, like
  • psychotherapy: should be good with dealing with self-esteem issues, figuring out the right expectations, getting to know oneself, and integrating past painful experiences (that's sometimes called shadow work and helps to be less triggered by present events)
  • mindfulness meditation: helps to increase your base awareness of what's going on in your body and mind and gain some distance
  • there's a whole field called "personal development" or "self-help" that teaches people to deal with those issues and has countless authors contributing, from psychologists (look for "positive psychology" on the science of happiness) and therapists to new age-y spiritual gurus. Pick your teachers, thread with caution, don't take anything too literally, test what works for you. Some of the new-agey techniques are the most powerful out there - in their range of applicability, which is never specified. There's a sea of easy to get books - free youtube videos - seminars of various price and quality etc., so dive in with confidence but don't let yourself drown ;)
    On self love, I know there's a book by Teal Swan: Shadows before dawn.
 
Welcome!

I'm sorry you struggle.

It's fine English is not your first language. You did great. :)

This is what pops out to me.

As we start chatting, he's the one to suggest a meeting and our chats did become pretty sexual rather quickly. Just a day before our meeting he's sending me these expectant messages and I was honestly hyped up and very flattered

I would have been cautious about love bombing. Cuz coming on too strong too much is just... too much. "What's wrong with HIM? What's he after? Just to get in my pants?" is what I would have thought.

When ever I feel something too "high up" or too "down low" -- those are emotions on the edges, the extremes. The fun ones are way fun. But leave one tired when they dissipate. The sucky ones suck. They leave one tired as they unfold. So...

Could decide to aim for more middle path. Not SUPER HAPPY. But happy. Not SUPER DOWN. But bummer.

But then, the date... I mean, it wasn't bad, but not good, either. Lukewarm. We did have sex and it was enjoyable, but there was no passion, really. He didn't really engage with me and I just felt awkward and uncomfortable most of the time. He talked a lot about his other dates and would leave me waiting while he did some other things. This really perplexed me because, as said, he had seemed excited and eager to meet me, but all that was gone even before I got over the threshold. And when we exchanged couple of messages after the date, he made it pretty clear he has no interest in meeting me again.

Sounds like Richard behaves kinda crap on a date. What's his poor behavior got to do with YOUR worth or value? Doesn't have to mean you suck. Might be he has bad date manners!

Sounds like this was a casual sex date and he was done after the sex. Where you thought this was a romantic date.

Or... (and this has happened to me) he heard you are practicing poly now and to him that means "easy sex." There's a button and t-shirt somewhere.... like "Bi, poly, kinky, and I STILL won't sleep with you." Maybe it was a case of that. Poor date behavior not because he's clumsy but because he's kinda creeper.

After this experience? Maybe you decide to hold off on sharing sex til after you know the person a bit more. Because sharing sex releases a lot of brain chemistry and then might cloud your judgement/perception of the date person. And you already have clouds to work on from the poor self esteem and stuff. Don't need extra clouds.

My reaction to all this was very poor. Heartbreak, again. I was floored. What happened?? Why? Did I do something wrong? Did I say something? Was I too fat? Too ugly? Too boring and uninteresting? What is wrong with me?!

You take thing personally. Rather than situationally.

I felt utterly rejected, undesirable and disappointed. I felt like I had had this major chance and somehow I had fucked it up but had no idea how. Confused, sad and lonely. Ack.

So that thinking behavior ensues in these feelings.

Could just be a sucky date. (situation.)

Rather than YOU suck. (personal attack on yourself.)

And this was not a "major chance." It's just one date. Barely know the guy.

It's not like this is a love story of the century anyways... I barely know the guy.
Later you seem to be able to see that it is NOT a major chance. Learn to dial down the volume. Be more middle path. Like "I hope this is a good date" rather than "this is a major chance!" Happy hopes and not SUPER HAPPY ones.

1. I suck at managing expectations. I expected a LOT from this date and in retrospect, most of my expectations had no basis in reality. It seems I read way more into my interactions with Richard than he did. He actually dates a lot so I would guess he had something much more casual in mind than I. He never promised me anything nor did he lead me on - this is all on me. I hoped for this and that, and when nothing I hoped for materialized, I was left broken and sad.

Then learn to check expectations when talking about making a date. "What sort of date are we making here? What are the expectations? I would like ____. I am open to ___. How about you?"

And skip the date if the expectations just don't match. Cuz why waste YOUR time and YOUR money on something that's not a runner even from the starting gate? YOU are valuable and important and so are your things/resources. (Or at least I hope they are to you.)

2. I take everything personally. As you can see, immediately after Richard's "thank you, but no thank you", I flew into self-blaming mode. I mean, there just must be something horribly wrong with me if he's not interested in having more contact me with, right?? So I felt completely rejected and disgusting.

I agree. See above.

I would love to be friends with Richard, sexual or non-sexual, I don't really care. I just find him interesting, intelligent and charming. It seems, however, that once again the feeling is not mutual and this is entirely out of my control.

So let the want go. Not a match.


How do I learn to adjust my expectations to a proper level? How do I learn to relax and to take things as they are instead of jumping way ahead and building elaborate scenarios in my head?

Slow down the anxiety brain hamster. Learn to deal with any twisted thinking.
Figure out which ones you do. Do the tips to untwist. I like this article.

https://redemptionpsychiatry.com/docs/Cognitive_0.pdf

If you need extra support, arrange for a therapist/counselor to better guide you and help you.

And, even more importantly, how do I learn to love myself? How do you guys do that?... Even at best I barely tolerate myself.

What's so rotten about you that you cannot manage to be polite to yourself when you talk to you inside your head? :confused: Like basic polite, the same polite you would do to a grocery store clerk or bank teller?

I could be wrong. But I think you do not have a self esteem problem. You have a self respect problem.

If your thoughts inside your head are like a radio station? If I had to be listening to that all day? I could barely tolerate it. Who wants to be listening to doom talk all day long? :confused:

But YOU are not your thoughts or your feelings. You are the person THINKING the thoughts. So you can change your mind. And you are the person EXPERIENCING some feelings. So you can adjust behaviors so new feelings can ensue.

You don't HAVE to be stuck listening to this "radio station" you can barely tolerate. Learn how to catch yourself with wonky thinking and actively work to change the channel.

I was an awkward, lonely kid and considered myself ugly and undesirable to my late teens.

So, again - no dating experience accumulated on this front, either... nor skills to handle that sort of things.

You keep telling yourself an "I suck at things" story. Why's your brain stuck in teenager land doing down talk? You are now an ADULT. And
there is evidence to the contrary to you sucking at relationships: You have a long term relationship with Lewis that is still going strong. You and Lewis have opened up successfully and the poly network is doing quite well and stable. So you DO have relationship skills.

You seem in the habit of being your own self bully. When you behave like a bully? That not behavior you can admire or be proud of or hold in high regard or high esteem. So then of course your self esteem is low. If you want to change that? Change to behaviors that are self honoring, self respecting and you CAN be proud of.

I think action or thinking behavior happens. Then feelings then ensue.

  • Like the feelings? Keep doing that behavior.
  • Don't like it? Do new behavior so new feelings can ensue.

Examine if you treat yourself with dignity and care. If you do self honoring and self respecting behaviors. And if you don't? Stop those "dragging you down" behaviors like self bullying talk in your head. And learn to see your ADULT skills. Make peace with the past.

It is NORMAL child development for teenagers to be awkward and weird with one foot in the land of childhood and the other in the land of adulthood as their brains and bodies change and mature. What were you expecting of teen you? :confused:

I'm also not telling you anything you already didn't point out yourself. That you need to manage expectations, that you take things too personally, etc. You have good skills for introspection. Did you not notice?

Maybe you need to hear it from someone else that YES. You DO have skills, you DO have successes.

So what if you didn't date tons as a kid? (Lots of people don't. I didn't.) You learned skills in other ways.

You were busy doing a long term serious thing with Lewis. Going deep rather than wide. Then when you guys wanted something else (opening up) you successfully did that. Sounds like things with Rose and Sean are going alright.

So if you are looking to expand your poly network and poly date and make another new change? You've got this.

Just realize that not everyone you date will be a long haul runner or even a good date. Some people are just not gonna match. That is what dating is FOR. To find the compatible ones. And even from those "initially compatible" ones that are close enough to make a date with? They all won't end up at "deeply compatible."

Take it easy and take it less intense. Just call dates "dates" and not "major chance." Dial down the "volume" on the emotional language. Be more middle of the road.

See if those sorts of new behaviors serve you better.

Galagirl
 
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Welcome! I'm glad you posted. I think lots of people - including myself - have similar concerns about dating, expectations and self-love.

I've got some random thoughts to pass on.

Yeah, welcome to dating. Often, it is not fun. What people often don't take into consideration when considering poly is that poly opens you up to more rejection than staying monogamous. More potential partners means more chances to be turned down, or turn others down. And that can seriously suck. To a degree, being poly means accepting that you will be rejected a lot, you will do some rejecting yourself and it will hurt. That's part of the price of admission for being ethically non-monogamous. (I'm not saying monogamous people don't deal with rejection - they do! But the opportunities for rejection in sexual or romantic relationships are less if one only has one sexual/romantic partner at a time.)

There are people who bounce back and get right back into the game after being rejected. I admire those people but I am not one of them. I've learned that I just have to sit with the disappointment and sadness after being rejected. It's not fun to experience but if I don't let myself feel those emotions, they stick around. And I do not want that to happen. If I feel fully that sadness, disappointment, whatever is going on, I am more likely to be able to move on emotionally from the situation, without getting 'stuck' in those feelings. So feel the sadness and disappointment and anger and shame - don't ignore them or stuff them away. This is unpleasant, for sure. But there is no (healthy) way around this.

One way to deal with the blaming yourself/spiral of self-doubt is to practice self-compassion. This article introduces the idea. Instead of self-esteem or self-love, give yourself the gift of self-compassion. I've found it very helpful.

A thought about how Richard treated you. It happens that things just don't work out. Chemistry isn't there. And it's ok to want more casual interactions. It's ok to realize that one just isn't interested in pursuing more.

But Richard treated you poorly. I quote: "But then, the date... I mean, it wasn't bad, but not good, either. Lukewarm. We did have sex and it was enjoyable, but there was no passion, really. He didn't really engage with me and I just felt awkward and uncomfortable most of the time. He talked a lot about his other dates and would leave me waiting while he did some other things. This really perplexed me because, as said, he had seemed excited and eager to meet me, but all that was gone even before I got over the threshold. And when we exchanged couple of messages after the date, he made it pretty clear he has no interest in meeting me again."

When I am on a date, my focus is on the person I am with. They have my attention. I do not go do other things while my date waits around. I don't talk extensively about other people I'm seeing. (I'm poly so I may mention other partners but I don't blather on about them.) I don't ignore or not engage with the person I'm on a date with. I put effort into interacting with the person I'm with. Even if I'm not interested in seeing that person again, they still get that respect and care from me.

Of course, you felt crappy! You were treated poorly. You were not treated respectfully, as a human being. Your time and body were not appreciated or respected. You were treated as an object to have sex with, not as a person. It is entirely possible to have a casual, no strings, one time only sexual fling - and treat each other as full human beings, not objects. Richard didn't do any of that. It was not acceptable how he treated you. No, he didn't lead you on or lie to you. But that's just about on the same level as not assaulting you - don't give people credit for reaching an absolutely minimal level of acceptable behavior.

Please recognize this behavior for the bullshit it is. Think seriously about why you accepted this as a proper way to treat you. It is not ok. Start working on recognizing bad behavior, especially more subtle denigrating behavior like this. Most cultures give out some seriously messed up ideas about how to treat sexual or romantic partners - start examining your underlying beliefs about sex and romance and how to treat potential partners. I've definitely had to dig out some less than pleasant ideas I had about relationships.

You deserve better! From everyone, even people who want casual sex from you. Thank goodness he declined seeing you again. Someone who would treat you this poorly, this thoughtlessly, is someone you want to avoid.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.

First, there's nothing wrong with you - you have little dating experience, so you had wrong expectations, and reacted when they were not fulfilled. If it's only a dating issue, this will correct by itself as you continue to gain more experience with your eyes open. You already did a lot of work here by naming the issue.

But if you really want to work on your mindset in life, you could take several different paths, which sometimes seem opposite, but are really complementary, like
  • psychotherapy: should be good with dealing with self-esteem issues, figuring out the right expectations, getting to know oneself, and integrating past painful experiences (that's sometimes called shadow work and helps to be less triggered by present events)
  • mindfulness meditation: helps to increase your base awareness of what's going on in your body and mind and gain some distance
  • there's a whole field called "personal development" or "self-help" that teaches people to deal with those issues and has countless authors contributing, from psychologists (look for "positive psychology" on the science of happiness) and therapists to new age-y spiritual gurus. Pick your teachers, thread with caution, don't take anything too literally, test what works for you. Some of the new-agey techniques are the most powerful out there - in their range of applicability, which is never specified. There's a sea of easy to get books - free youtube videos - seminars of various price and quality etc., so dive in with confidence but don't let yourself drown ;)
    On self love, I know there's a book by Teal Swan: Shadows before dawn.

Eeek! I was pretty much grooving on what Tinwin was saying until Teal Swan's name appeared. I would recommend steering far and wide away from Teal Swan. She has a pretty solid reputation as a charlatan and a kook ... and was for some time trying to build a cult around her personality. She's probably got more mental illness than you can shake a stick at and it's not the sort where she's only harming herself.

Teal’s long term global aspirations are vast. She states, “My intention is to build a company that is so large and so unstoppable that nothing can come up against it…[It will] implement many world changes…The investments can be used to lobby, or to buy countries. And then we can start doing these new societies.”

-- quoted from https://medium.com/@bescofield/the-gucci-guru-inside-teal-swans-posh-cult-36168edaf62f


More: https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/08/205915/the-gateway-teal-swan-youtube-cult-jennings-brown

Check out that video. She looks to me to be a frightened little girl, not a powerful new age guru.
 
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Hello Arawn,

I am thinking there might be something in your past, some kind of trauma, that sowed the seeds of the self-esteem problems you are experiencing today. You said you were an awkward, lonely kid and considered yourself ugly and undesirable. When did this awkward loneliness begin? When did you first start to see yourself as ugly and undesirable? Can you trace that back to (a) thing/s that happened to you when you were very young? Did someone say things to you, that, in a subtle way, planted a suggestion in your mind that you should think of yourself as unworthy? or maybe even in a not-so-subtle way. I just mean you could maybe do some digging to figure out what lies at the root of these denigrating thoughts you have about yourself. Either something in your past or, a fear of unworthiness, or something else.

I agree with opalescent that Richard did not treat you right. He just buttered you up ahead of time so that you would go on the date and let him have sex with you. It's obvious he did not hold you in high esteem. In that way this is a case of, consider the source. You did not mess up, he did.

I hope you are able to recover, and that you'll have better dating experiences in the future.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Eeek! I was pretty much grooving on what Tinwen was saying until Teal Swan's name appeared. I would recommend steering far and wide away from Teal Swan. She has a pretty solid reputation as a charlatan and a kook ... and was for some time trying to build a cult around her personality. She's probably got more mental illness than you can shake a stick at and it's not the sort where she's only harming herself.
Give her a break River, her approach helped me with self-compassion immensely, more than anything else anyone else has ever said or written. I don't buy everything she sais of course - I'm not walking around and preaching the law of attraction. New age and 'spiritual' people are usually like this - they teach some good stuff along with a bunch of superstition and overgeneralizations, and therefore stir up controversy. But their good stuff can mean someone's breakthrough.

edit: I read the first article. I take the accusation of plagiarizing paragraphs from other people's work seriously. Otherwise, I don't really see a problem.
 
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Wow. Thank you so much for reading and answering. You guys really give me a better perspective on things. I'll try to answer in some coherent manner...

Firstly, about Richard. In retrospect, it would seem he was after "just sex" although I do not think he was being manipulative. He does date a lot and it's not difficult for him to find a date so it would not make a lot of sense to manipulate someone for 2 months if you can just get on Tinder/whatever and pick up a date immediately. Our chats did revolve mostly around flirting and sex, though, and he didn't seem interested in "getting to know each other" type of chatting. At the time I chalked it up to him being busy & not caring about chatting that much (yeah, that was stupid of me) but obviously he just wasn't interested in me as a person.

However, even though it would've been ideal had he been interested in ME, I would've been fine with "just sex". To be honest, that was the part I was most excited about; it seemed we are compatible and sexually into each other and I love sex. I already have two meaningful relationships so even having just a "hot fling" would have been a win in my books.

But, as I said, even the sex was... just nice. And this is what really confused me. If he was just after the sex, one would've thought he's try to get into my pants immediately and, you know, be all over me. And then, bye bye baby. However, that is not what happened... He didn't really seemed that interested in... well, anything. Of course, he might've not been attracted to me after seeing me in person or he might've been too tired from his previous dates or what not. Who knows. Doesn't really matter either, I figure. He's not interested and that's all I need to know.

However, in any case. You guys are right... Richard did not behave well or respectfully. I mean, even if he had found me boring and unattractive, he still could've been a proper host. Even if he was only after sex. I mean, I would never treat my guest like he treated me, even if I would find my guest to be uninteresting and there was no chemistry between us. Aw man, I don't know. It appears I've put Richard on some sort of pedestal and just didn't want to think that he would be... this poor at being a host. (So of course it had to be my fault, dun dun dun.)

There is one more thing, though. Something that DID bother me even then and still makes me feel icky. At some point during the evening we discussed dating in general and as I have no experience, I used a good friend as an example. Just general stuff, nothing private. Just that she's very pretty and lovely, but hasn't been able to find a lasting relationship even though she's actively dating. Then, later, when we are getting ready to sleep, Richard asks me to show my friend's profile and ponders asking her out for a date. And I'm like... :confused: Who does that?

You are right, Galagirl. It is better not to meet Richard anymore. I mean, I'm down for having just a sex date, but I do want to be treated with respect and care. THAT didn't happen.

What's so rotten about you that you cannot manage to be polite to yourself when you talk to you inside your head? Like basic polite, the same polite you would do to a grocery store clerk or bank teller?

I could be wrong. But I think you do not have a self esteem problem. You have a self respect problem.

Ah. This is definitely true. I am my own worst enemy... My inner voice is just AWFUL. Sometimes I feel like there are two different people inside me. Other one is intelligent, logical and calm. That part of me sees things realistically and is capable in introspection. The other part... that part is just bonkers.

Problem is, when my inner Mean voice gets on going, it's really, really difficult to stop it.

Point out the issue with my self respect might be spot on, though. I really do not respect myself almost at all. This probably blinded me to Richard, too, because he's like the epitome of things I respect in people, save for his apparent behavioral failings. He's good looking, he's got this great job in an important & respectful field, he's environmentally conscious, his hobbies are cool and interesting, he's analytical, smart and well read. I was wowed.

Hmm. Looks like I maybe need to work on my life, then. For example, my job is something I feel is intellectually below my level and is just utterly unrewarding and hateful. I honestly feel embarrassed when I tell people what I do for living, even though I do not despise the profession itself. I just feel like I am unable to use my skills and brains in this job.

But, I'm working on it already. It's not easy to get another job in my country and in my situation, but I'm searching and applying. Hopefully this will yield results in near future.

This just as an example.

Also, thank you guys for suggested articles. I will check them out! Looks promising. Therapy is, unfortunately, not an option right now. Or, to be precise, I AM in therapy, but my therapist is not a very useful one and now it is too late to change that. This is due to how health care works in my country. So, I have to pretty much work on things by myself, but I am optimistic on that front because there have been rather good developments in my life, lately. For example, I have FINALLY, after 15 years, gotten my eating disorder under control. If I can do that, surely I can coach myself into respecting myself more. And being more polite to myself!
 
Hello Arawn,

I am thinking there might be something in your past, some kind of trauma, that sowed the seeds of the self-esteem problems you are experiencing today. You said you were an awkward, lonely kid and considered yourself ugly and undesirable. When did this awkward loneliness begin? When did you first start to see yourself as ugly and undesirable? Can you trace that back to (a) thing/s that happened to you when you were very young? Did someone say things to you, that, in a subtle way, planted a suggestion in your mind that you should think of yourself as unworthy? or maybe even in a not-so-subtle way. I just mean you could maybe do some digging to figure out what lies at the root of these denigrating thoughts you have about yourself. Either something in your past or, a fear of unworthiness, or something else.

I agree with opalescent that Richard did not treat you right. He just buttered you up ahead of time so that you would go on the date and let him have sex with you. It's obvious he did not hold you in high esteem. In that way this is a case of, consider the source. You did not mess up, he did.

I hope you are able to recover, and that you'll have better dating experiences in the future.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Well, it's not like there was something huge that messed me up when I was young... More like a slow erosion, hundreds of tiny things that have accumulated over time. I was bullied in school, my dad was pretty absent and my mom leaned on me more than was probably healthy, and I was very overweight, which garnered a LOT of negative attention from boys. That's the core reason why I thought I'm ugly (and still think, somewhere deep down). I did get rid of my excess weight when I was 18, but damage was already done. And, besides, I developed a binge eating disorder, which is probably the root cause of my depression so there's that.

So yeah, I find it extremely difficult to express any sort of wants or needs. I feel like I have no right to ask for anything from people (Lewis and Sean are exceptions, to a degree). This doesn't mean I accept bad treatment but I almost never confront anyone because of it. I just withdraw and cease contact. Not the best way to handle things, I know...

I'll need to ponder this. I thought I have my past sorted out but maybe I haven't. I would like to be more confident and assertive in both my professional and private life.

I'm sure I'll recover from this Richard fiasco. In fact, this thread alone has helped me a lot in really realizing it wasn't me but him. I mean, sure, he may have thought I'm boring or whatever, but that does not excuse his treatment of me. He treated me poorly and that's on him. Clearly he isn't such a great guy I thought he is.

There will be many better men in my future, I am sure. :)
 
Honestly, I'm with galagirl. Richard sounds shallow, a bit creepy, and possibly predatory to me. All the things you listed about him that you like are external characteristics (looks, job, interests, etc) and have little to do with his internal character. He looks better on paper than in reality.

As for learning to love yourself and show yourself compassion, my experience is that you start one small step at a time. Start with awareness: recognize when you're bullying yourself and telling yourself unkind things. Once you recognize those thoughts consistently, you can learn to change the thoughts and be kinder to yourself. The more you practice it, the more natural it will become. A cool side effect of this is: the kinder, less critical I am to myself, the kinder and less judgmental I become with others.

Also, for me, the key to loving myself is to start where I am. Jobs, financial situations, relationship statuses, physical beauty, etc, are all temporal conditions. They will change. That's the one constant in life: everything changes. So loving myself because of anything temporary is going to result in temporary love for myself. Instead, I love myself for the whole person I am...the good and not as good, all of it, as I am right now. If there are areas I wish to improve, I work on improving those areas but I don't make my love for myself conditional on those areas improving.

I don't have any specific self-help books but I really like the writings of Pema Chodron and Thich Nhat Hanh. They've both helped me to be a kinder, more loving, peaceful, mindful person.

ETA: One way to start is to stop giving Richard excuses. You said "sure he may have found me boring". Instead, you could stop making excuses for him and just say "Richard did not treat me well."
 
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But their good stuff can mean someone's breakthrough.

People who actually knew her up close and personal have made it clear that Teal Swan's "stuff" is all taken from the stacks of self-help books she keeps around the house. None of it is her "stuff". Also, she's obviously cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. And just watch her in her videos when she starts lying about shit. She's not even a good liar. Her eyes, body language and facial expressions give her away. Something is seriously wrong with this little girl. Alas, naturally, she is selling herself as a helper and healer and a guru. Sigh.
 
People who actually knew her up close and personal have made it clear that Teal Swan's "stuff" is all taken from the stacks of self-help books she keeps around the house. None of it is her "stuff". Also, she's obviously cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. And just watch her in her videos when she starts lying about shit. She's not even a good liar. Her eyes, body language and facial expressions give her away. Something is seriously wrong with this little girl. Alas, naturally, she is selling herself as a helper and healer and a guru. Sigh.
I have no idea how Cocoa Puffs come into play :D
I watched her in the videos where she actually works with people and I was both deeply impressed and got profound insights. I know of nobody else who does this kind of work on stage. She helped me change my view to a less normative and more compassionate one.
It's quite clear when you listen to her that she synthesizes from other sources - and again, I didn't know about the extent it's sometimes word for word - but I don't think you can say 'none' of her content is hers.
She teaches what worked for her with her own personal twist in a way that reaches a lot of people. I don't think that's bad.

Okey, my own self from five years ago can't believe I'm defending a new age popular persona now, can we agree to disagree? :D
 
Okey, my own self from five years ago can't believe I'm defending a new age popular persona now, can we agree to disagree? :D

Sure. I don't mean to hijack the thread for this off-topic rant of mine. I don't like or trust Teal Swan, and don't think anyone else should either. I think she's dangerously disturbed and wants to be a world class, money-making and powerful guru. She has basically said she wants to take over the world with a Powerful New Corporation, named after herself, that's "unstoppable". Enough said.

Listen to your own self from five years ago. ;)
 
Then, later, when we are getting ready to sleep, Richard asks me to show my friend's profile and ponders asking her out for a date. And I'm like...**Who does that?*

Ugh. Super bad manners. :mad:

You are right, Galagirl. It is better not to meet Richard anymore. I mean, I'm down for having just a sex date, but I do want to be treated with respect and care. THAT didn't happen.

Yup. Sex dates are fine. But dude... be a mannerly host! You don't expect your current sex date to start setting you up for your next one. Jeez!

Creeper sounding dude.

This probably blinded me to Richard, too, because he's like the epitome of things I respect in people, save for his apparent behavioral failings. He's good looking, he's got this great job in an important & respectful field, he's environmentally conscious, his hobbies are cool and interesting, he's analytical, smart and well read. I was wowed.

  • Good Looking -- nothing to respect there. He got lucky with genetics.

  • great job in an important & respectful field -- nice for him. Sounds like maybe he earned that. But are you sure you aren't admiring this because you don't like your own job? Doesn't sound special to Richard. You might admire anyone with a better job right now.

  • he's environmentally conscious -- ok. He reads or keeps up with environment in other ways. You admire that.

  • his hobbies are cool and interesting -- ok. He has neat hobbies. You admire that.

The EPITOME of all you admire and respect is a dude who likes environment and has some hobbies that you don't know very well?

I'm not putting you down here. I'm saying... tone down the emotional volume so you get a better grip on expectations. Words like "major chance" and "epitome" -- those are loud words. You don't know him well... so no. Don't give him your "big" words right out of the gate. Wait and see.

Respect is a "feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements." And since you barely know the guy? You cannot "deeply" anything there. Maybe over time if you got to know a dating partner. But not on first encounters.

That's why it is important to tone it down. Esp when dating. Not everyone you date will be a great date, be initially compatible, etc. It's what dating is FOR. To sort them out. A reasonable toned down expectation YOU can do would have been

  • "Ok, let's get clear on what kind of date this is. Sex date or romantic date or what. So I expect me to find out."

  • "Ok, if this is a sex date, that's fine. But I expect good manners. So I'm going to tell him I expect that, and on the date I'll be watching out for that." (Which he failed, so no. Not seeing him again. And that is not YOUR behavior. That is HIS.)

Perhaps that mindset and approach will help you better on your next dates?

Problem is, when my inner Mean voice gets on going, it's really, really difficult to stop it.*

So you practice and it BECOMES easier over time.

Could start small. Maybe just notice mean voice happening and mark time and what on the calendar. Then mark the next one. Say it was a day. Well... try to do 2 days next time. Over time you will see which are the "favorites" it sings at you.

Where did you learn it? Like maybe a parent, aunt, uncle, grandma, grandpa, teacher whoever that used to talk like that to you like a "broken record?" And now you carry their judgy voice around inside still playing the same ol' song?

I really do not respect myself almost at all.

Do you eat? Take a bath? Get sleep at night? Do the basics of physical self care? That's showing self respecting and self honoring behavior.

My job is something I feel is intellectually below my level and is just utterly unrewarding and hateful. I honestly feel embarrassed when I tell people what I do for living, even though I do not despise the profession itself. I just feel like I am unable to use my skills and brains in this job. But, I'm working on it already. It's not easy to get another job in my country and in my situation, but I'm searching and applying. Hopefully this will yield results in near future.

Then you can count it as self respecting behavior – that you are working on changing the job situation you don't like. And in the meanwhile it pays the bills. That is also self respecting.

I AM in therapy, but my therapist is not a very useful one and now it is too late to change that. This is due to how health care works in my country.

You cannot fire a doctor that doesn't work for you?:confused: I don't know much about health care in other countries but perhaps you can ask around for how to change?

One cannot change ALL the areas in their life at the same time instantly. So perhaps it's enough to know you will work on easier areas first and then come back to this one later.

Being realistic about the order of addressing things demonstrates healthy self respect – one doesn't not have to be Superman or Wonder Woman doing all the things at once. Doing everything at once is the path to stress and burning out. It is ok to do things one at a time!

I have FINALLY, after 15 years, gotten my eating disorder under control. If I can do that, surely I can coach myself into respecting myself more. And being more polite to myself!

There's another area of life you have improved. Good for you. See? You have all sorts of abilities. Maybe notice them more.

So yeah, I find it extremely difficult to express any sort of wants or needs.


https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/needs_inventory_0.pdf


Print page. Circle need.

Maybe that helps you learn to express?


I feel like I have no right to ask for anything from people (Lewis and Sean are exceptions, to a degree).

Could stop using “feel” for “think.” I notice you do it A LOT.

It might sound nitpicky. But “think” is for thoughts. And “feel” is for emotions. And “experience” or “observe” or for things that you experience and observe.

You mean

I THINK I have no right to ask for anything from people (Lewis and Sean are exceptions, to a degree).

And when you can say THINK, you realize it is a thought. And you can always change your mind! You can think one thing, and then change your mind later and think something else.

Other people are not mind readers. You can totally ask and make requests. That doesn't mean they will AGREE to doing them just like that. But you can totally ask.

I would like to be more confident and assertive in both my professional and private life.

Then start asking people for stuff and work on GROWING the confidence. It is grown through DOING. Confidence does not fall out of the sky.

Start with easy stuff like asking for appointments -- dentist, car repair, plumber, haircut, whatever.

This doesn't mean I accept bad treatment but I almost never confront anyone because of it. I just withdraw and cease contact. Not the best way to handle things, I know...

Why not? Sometimes just walking away and cutting contact solves the thing fastest. It's a valid approach.

Like with Richard. He treated you poorly. Just cut contact and walk away. You don't have to waste MORE time with him. Your time is valuable and important. You don't have to spend it there.

It's also ok to go "Hang on. I'm not comfortable with that. Could you please be willing to do ___ instead?" and call people on it when they do something. Sometimes it is an accident and the apologize. Or they just didn't know.

But if it's jerk behavior? Just walk away. Check out. Totally valid approach.

Be ok taking up the space you do in the world and work to let go of these self limiting behaviors you have going on. You don't have to puff up and take up ALL the space in the world. But it is OK to take up the space you do.

Galagirl
 
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Ugh. Super bad manners. :mad:

Yup. Sex dates are fine. But dude... be a mannerly host! You don't expect your current sex date to start setting you up for your next one. Jeez!

I like sex as much as anyone. But these days I can't get turned on unless I really like the person. We don't have to form a 'boyfriend' or 'girlfriend' "serious relationship" thingy. But we do need to hang out and establish trust and connection and real affection... and I have to be sure the person isn't creepy or crazy in a seriously bad (unhealthy for me) way.

I don't give a damn if they're physically beautiful and have a great career and crap like that. That's not a turn on. Warmth and kindness and honesty and sincerity and sweetness in the heart are my turn ons now. I'll walk away from an 11 on a 10 points scale in physical attractiveness in a heartbeat if they're all squirely about cocoa puffs and wouldn't know a human feeling if it ran over 'em like a bus on Main Street.

I guess this has something to do with getting older. Or maybe not. Some people never seem to grow up. But I will consider my approach more grown up than the one which is all about "getting off" without respect for persons or human connection. And I honestly don't care if some folks don't like me for saying so.

When we humans are younger and less experienced, we can get all caught up in the flashy pizazz of hormonally driven, sexy fireworks in a way that's just not good four our hearts or our souls. Or those of others. And then that stops working for us at a certain point -- if indeed we're growing up.

It takes some adjustment. But I'll gladly have a genuinely warm embrace than fireworks with an a-hole.
 
Honestly, Galagirl, you are way better than my therapist. :D Not that I'm surprised, you often have very insighful comments here. This brings me to the issue of therapy... The way health care works here is that the public system pays most of my therapy BUT it also means that changing a therapist is very difficult, once one is "locked down". I would have to fill in several forms and wait for months. Another option would be, of course, to pay everything out of my own pocket but I have no money for that so here we are. I should've been more assertive with this and gotten a new therapist when it was still feasible to do so, but because of "I cannot ask for things for myself" and because there isn't anything WRONG with my therapist exactly, I didn't. A mistake, but I must live with it now.

I think I'll try to see if I could wring out something useful out of her. I mean, she's nice and we do have a good rapport, it's just that I would prefer a bit more stern approach and she isn't very insightful. But let's see.

great job in an important & respectful field -- nice for him. Sounds like maybe he earned that. But are you sure you aren't admiring this because you don't like your own job? Doesn't sound special to Richard. You might admire anyone with a better job right now.

Half and half. I do admire his profession and field in general. However, this admiration is probably greatly amplified by my disdain and disappointment with my own job. So yes, Iäd probably admire anyone with a better job...

That's why it is important to tone it down. Esp when dating. Not everyone you date will be a great date, be initially compatible, etc. It's what dating is FOR. To sort them out. A reasonable toned down expectation YOU can do would have been

"Ok, let's get clear on what kind of date this is. Sex date or romantic date or what. So I expect me to find out."

"Ok, if this is a sex date, that's fine. But I expect good manners. So I'm going to tell him I expect that, and on the date I'll be watching out for that." (Which he failed, so no. Not seeing him again. And that is not YOUR behavior. That is HIS.)

Perhaps that mindset and approach will help you better on your next dates?

Sounds quite sensible, indeed. I do have a tendency for drama... at least in my head. (Not so much in real life, thank god.) I get easily excited, charge into things head on and sometimes get burned. I should definitely tone this tendency down.

I think I'll save those sentences for later, especially the second one. No more treatment like that. And if it ever happens, I want to be able to call it out immediately.

Now I think about this logically, it seems odd I am so fixated on Richard and his good opinion. As you say, I do not know the guy so basically I'm not into HIM rather than my idea of him. And it is difficult to let go of this idea, for some reason. Weird. Why this guy, it's not like his the first person in long time to show interest in me... I wonder if there's some sort of need in me that I expected/hoped he would fulfill. Hmm. Just thinking out loud...

Where did you learn it? Like maybe a parent, aunt, uncle, grandma, grandpa, teacher whoever that used to talk like that to you like a "broken record?" And now you carry their judgy voice around inside still playing the same ol' song?

I honestly cannot tell. While I haven't gotten the support I might've needed from my family in my early youth, no one was ever mean or demeaning to me. Possibly my school mates? I did become outcast in my school pretty quickly. There are two instances especially that I remember. One is that in our school cafeteria, tables were for 10 people and in my class there were 11 girls. At the time girls just "weren't" friends with boys so it was always girls together and boys together. Which meant, that every single time one of the girls was sitting alone and guess who it usually was...

Another situation was a repetetive one as well. Every time the class went somewhere, we were paired up with another school mate. However, again, girls with girls and boys with boys. So, AGAIN, one of the girls was always without a pair - me. That was me. I used to have this animal backpack so that was my pair. Man.

So maybe no one was particularly mean, but the message was clear. I am the odd one out, not worthy of being included and befriended. This is what my voice tells me, that I am unworthy, unlovable and no one will ever want to be with me. (Even though I hae Lewis and Sean proving the very opposite.)

I like the idea of analyzing the voice, though. I will try that. Maybe "stepping outside" might help. And yes, practicing.

Could stop using “feel” for “think.” I notice you do it A LOT.

It might sound nitpicky. But “think” is for thoughts. And “feel” is for emotions. And “experience” or “observe” or for things that you experience and observe.

Oh, this isn't nitpicky at all. This is an excellent observation. You are right. This is how I THINK. And yes, I can work on thoughts. Yes, this I like.

Why not? Sometimes just walking away and cutting contact solves the thing fastest. It's a valid approach.

Like with Richard. He treated you poorly. Just cut contact and walk away. You don't have to waste MORE time with him. Your time is valuable and important. You don't have to spend it there.

True. But sometimes I feel like I "give up" too easily. Here I'm talking about friends or people I have known for some time and with whom I have had a good relationship with, in whatever capacity. I mean, in such cases, I could at least try to voice my grievances and only walk out if nothing changes. Instead of just disappearing immediately when I'm unhappy about something.

Hmm. More stuff to work on, clearly.

----

As an end note, I want to thank all of you who have commented here. I've gotten a lot of good ideas about how to work on myself. And I'm confident I can do this. Well, it's going to be a journey without an end, of course, but that's how it is. I like journeys so I'm good with it. :)
 
Re (from Arawn):
"I was bullied in school, my dad was pretty absent and my mom leaned on me more than was probably healthy, and I was very overweight, which garnered a *lot* of negative attention from boys. That's the core reason why I thought I'm ugly (and still think, somewhere deep down). I did get rid of my excess weight when I was 18, but damage was already done. And, besides, I developed a binge eating disorder, which is probably the root cause of my depression so there's that."

All of those are good reasons why anyone would end up with self-esteem problems. You also mentioned that you sat alone in the cafeteria and were, again, singled out when the class went somewhere. Given all that, it is no wonder to me why you ended up with some self-esteem problems, and you should not wonder either. Your first step toward building self-esteem is, having compassion toward yourself for having self-esteem problems in the first place. You did not cause those problems. They are things that happened to you.

It sounds like you are already started on the journey towards recovery, and you are feeling optimistic about it, that's awesome. Hopefully you'll continue to post here, and we can give updated feedback and advice.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thank you for your kind words, Kevin. I've been reading this forum for months now so most likely I will stay. And possibly try to contribute to discussions, too, if I have something to say. :D I'm not usually this confused and gloomy despite my issues. And, besides, I am living in poly relationship and even though all relationships in my "poly situation" are going well, currently, you never know about the future. I'll probably need more advice and/or support at some point anyways. Or just reflection.
 
We'll be here for any of those things. :)
 
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