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Old 03-16-2019, 04:33 PM
JanetDammit JanetDammit is offline
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Default I Failed at Poly

To start with, I'm approaching 60 and just 3 years ago, an event triggered my memories of an incident of sexual abuse when I was 12 by an older brother who I had always admired. I've been married for over 30 years to a lovely man who put up with long, long stretches without any sexual or even intimate contact with me. I just couldn't do it even though I love him. I had always thought I just didn't have the libido. Three years ago, he told me that he still loved me, didn't want to leave me, but that he had fallen in love with someone else. We both had been exposed to others who had been in polyamorous relationships so knew about that option. I thought about it for a week or so and came to the conclusion that he deserved to have that sexual intimacy with someone he loves, since I couldn't give it to him. When I gave them my consent, they told me that I would always have veto power. Thus began their relationship. I think that his revelation of love for another woman and the current news reports at the time about a brother abusing his sisters triggered my childhood abuse memories. I had an epiphany, went through the process of confronting my brother (who graciously admitted fault) and I found I actually did have sexual desire buried within me. So my husband and I have been trying to make up for lost time, but I'm am still working on the emotional intimacy that was always guarded from the abuse. As far as the other woman in the picture, after about a year and much turmoil (fights, misunderstandings, etc.) between them that he would always share with me, I told him that I had had enough. I didn't like being in the position of having this veto power but I could see he was in turmoil. (Honestly, we all made the mistakes that most poly newbies make.) They broke up. He chose me but said that he hadn't stopped loving her.

At some point, I realized that I had condoned their relationship under duress - It was primarily because I felt broken. I decided that I wasn't good with the poly arrangement now that I was less "broken".

After they had some time to distance themselves, they started talking again. After a while, he started visiting her, only as a friend. (I do trust that nothing beyond that is happening, but he has told me that they still profess their love to each other.) I thought that I would be okay with him having contact with her, but I didn't anticipate that it would be almost weekly. (He doesn't see any other friends that often.) That's what is coming up as we approach summer; he will be seeing her weekly to help her with house repairs, have dinner and talk. This has sent me on a downward spiral of feeling vulnerable and insecure. These feelings have cropped up from time to time, and I've always managed to put them back in the box just like I put the sexual assault in a box for all those years, but I'm having more trouble doing that this time. I hadn't anticipated these emotional reactions since I'm usually not jealous and I'm honestly usually not very emotional. I think that I'm going through another wave of emotions related to the sexual trauma that I've read happen when you are finally able to confront the assault monster. But I'm new to these feelings. Could his relationship with her be a trigger?

I'm starting to wonder if his continued relationship with her, that is still emotionally intimate, means that he is not "all in" with me. I keep telling myself that I should be able to accept that he can love more than one person. So I'm wockeling(sp?) between 1) saying to myself "just power through the jealousy" or 2) telling him I can't handle him seeing her. If I choose the latter, then basically, I've told him: okay, you need to break up with her, okay, now you can see her as a friend, okay, now don't see her at all. I've always been the dominant one in our relationship, but I feel like saying "don't see her at all" is going too far. You can say, he has the option to choose, but he and I have already discussed that if it came down to it, he would always choose me. So far, he says he doesn't resent me for telling them I'm not good with their physical intimacy, but I don't want to give him an ultimatum that would cause him to finally resent me.

It has already reached a point where we can't talk about her - he immediately assumes I am going to criticize her even when I'm trying not to and gets defensive. She doesn't like me, is understandably bitter about my killing there physical relationship, and is uninterested in coming to a truce. She has been open with him about all of this. He feels like he's stuck in the middle (which he is) and getting it from both sides. I tried to reach out to her in IM to explain my position months ago, but she has yet to respond with anything other than that she needed to think about what I said.

I know that I've still got a lot of healing to do from the trauma. I thought that I had "dealt" with it, but I was told that triggers stemming from relationship issues could cause emotions relating to the trauma to erupt up from time to time. Do I have right to ask him to end this completely with her to help me get over my emotional distress? I feel like I don't. I also feel like I'm still not providing enough emotional intimacy that he may need and that he can still get from her - part of why I'm so insecure. I'm just very confused right now.

I thought I could work through the trauma on my own since I had made so much headway after my epiphany, but now I'm considered seeing a therapist about the trauma. Undoubtedly, the poly relationship will come up so I'll need to find someone aware and open to those kinds of relationships. I don't them to automatically say, Oh, he needs to break it off with her! Even though I feel that way, I want a balanced opinion from someone else. I live in a very conservative area so that might be tough.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:24 AM
Bibble Bibble is offline
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Thank you for sharing your story. Itís clear youíve been through quite a lot

You always have the right to ask someone you love, who loves and cares about you, for a little bit of help. Itís okay to ask that person to make a sacrifice for you, but only if you do not expect them to do so. It has to be entirely their decision, and you have to accept and understand that any sacrifice they make is an act of selflessness and in no way an obligation.

If I may suggest a way to have this conversation with him. Start the conversation by simply asking him if you are giving him what he needs. If necessary, voice your specific concerns for his well being, about his need for intimacy and whether or not you are fulfillinf that need. Rather than trying to read his mind, give him an opportunity to really talk, to express what he needs, and listen closely. Then, maybe you wonít even need to ask him to make thus sacrifice for you.

I hope that helps, but regardless, thank you again for sharing.
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  #3  
Old 03-17-2019, 09:52 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I'm sorry this happened and that you struggle right now.

I could be wrong in my impression, but these seem to be the things to address.

ABUSE PROBLEM

I encourage you to see a therapist. Here's some links that might help you find some who also understand poly:

https://www.polyfriendly.org/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ous-assistance

https://www.counseling.org/docs/defa...s.pdf?sfvrsn=9

GENERATIONAL THING?

On the husband layer? You remind me of my mom and dad. She grew up in the generation that thinks “it is my duty” to be over responsible for ALL.

She did/does the house, the bills, worked outside the home, raised the kids, washes his clothes, cooks his food, anticipates his moods, even sex. She was taught that even if she's not in the mood to put out? She has to provide sex for him because it is her "marital duty." It wasn't til she watched me and my sister and how we are with our spouses that she realized marriage could be different. More like “actual life companion" instead of "guy who makes chores for me."

Are you also of that generational mindset? Is some of that happening here? Where you agreed to poly and instead of holding up his end of the stick, your hubby ended up bringing you extra work? When you aren't the one with the additional relationship?

If so you might have to start letting your hubby do more of his OWN work and stop being so over responsible for him and his stuff as part of your healing. If you are only 60ish, you might go to 80ish or beyond. It's ok to want something else for that stage of life. Think on it. Maybe it's not just abuse healing but a life overhaul?

THE PAST

Quote:
I thought about it for a week or so and came to the conclusion that he deserved to have that sexual intimacy with someone he loves, since I couldn't give it to him.
At the time you could not give sex and other intimacy. He seemed to accept and be ok with that then. So call that chunk of time already dealt with and not like a “debt” that “you still owe him” for.

Because at any time in the marriage in the past – if things weren't cool with him, he could have asked for changes or ended things with you.

Start from today.

THE PRESENT

You guys recently tried a Poly V thing where he got a GF. And instead of him dealing with his GF arguments and fights... he brought it all home to you to deal with.

Quote:
As far as the other woman in the picture, after about a year and much turmoil (fights, misunderstandings, etc.) between them that he would always share with me, I told him that I had had enough.
Sound like he was overloading you.

Quote:
I didn't like being in the position of having this veto power but I could see he was in turmoil. They broke up.
So instead of repairing his other relationship or ending it himself, he flails around at it while overloading his wife until his wife (who is trying to heal from past abuse right now) has to call in the veto and becomes the mess cleaner-upper so there's finally quiet?

Quote:
I didn't like being in the position of having this veto power...
Next time speak UP. You could have said ”Thanks, but I don't want this veto power.”

Quote:
He chose me but said that he hadn't stopped loving her.
That's nice. Love her then. And stop overloading you with TMI details.

To me it sounds like they are "exes who kinda want to get back together." I wonder of you are anxious (which you call "insecure") because you are waiting for the shoe to drop? And all the previous lalas to start up again?

You seem to want a period of calm stability so you can get on with your abuse therapy work, but you aren't getting it how you want.

Quote:
If I choose the latter, then basically, I've told him: okay, you need to break up with her, okay, now you can see her as a friend, okay, now don't see her at all.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you still keep trying to "manage" him and his other relationship for him. How about not carrying his load even if he tries to bring it to you? Let him deal with it himself?

Quote:
You can say, he has the option to choose, but he and I have already discussed that if it came down to it, he would always choose me.
WHY? Because you manage everything for him and he's lazy?

Quote:
It has already reached a point where we can't talk about her - he immediately assumes I am going to criticize her even when I'm trying not to and gets defensive.
So don't talk about her. Solves it enough for you for now. If he's assuming things and he gets defensive... that is HIS doing. Not yours. Be ok NOT being responsible for his jobs, his feelings, and his stuff. Let him carry his own baggage.

Quote:
She doesn't like me, is understandably bitter about my killing there physical relationship...
Nope. Because...

Quote:
When I gave them my consent, they told me that I would always have veto power.
I don't dig veto arrangements, but if you all agreed to that? Then they cannot act surprised later if you call in the veto marker and then make it like you are the big meanie for using it. She could be mad at herself and her BF/your hubby for fighting so much and not solving their problems themselves. Or she could be mad at him for bringing it home to you so much it makes you nuts and you pop. Or he could be mad at himself for same.

They could have also said "You know what? Even though we said we would? We won't obey the veto."

This pass the buck thing is meh. Why are you being made responsible for all these people and their choices?

Practice being in charge of just YOU. Every person carries their own baggage.

Quote:
(She)... is uninterested in coming to a truce.
Sounds like you tried to offer an olive branch. She's not up for it at this time.

Could give yourself permission to stop trying then. Let her choices be hers. Be ok not being responsible for that either.

Quote:
She has been open with him about all of this.
And how would YOU know all that she says? Because he blabs to you about it. Oversharing.

Quote:
He feels like he's stuck in the middle (which he is) and getting it from both sides.
Have you stopped to consider he is a SLOPPY hinge?

If he's overloading you with stuff from (him + her) side of the V making you feel crazy? Maybe he's been overloading her with stuff from (you + him) side of the V doing same.

Ever wonder if you two disliking each other is a result of his oversharing behavior? Have you stepped back to go... "Wait a minute... Maybe we'd be neutral or like each other fine if he wasn't a sloppy hinge telling one things about the other one so much?"

Quote:
I also feel like I'm still not providing enough emotional intimacy that he may need and that he can still get from her - part of why I'm so insecure.
Why is it your job to provide ALL his emotional intimacy?

Quote:
Do I have right to ask him to end this completely with her to help me get over my emotional distress?
I might be wrong in my impression but you didn't sound all that upset about sharing his time or attention. It became a problem when he started overloading you about their arguments and bringing their relationship stuff over to be your job.

I wonder if the distress is more like “Man... if he's gonna hang over there weekly does that mean they will argue again and then he's going to bring me more NEW work? When my plate is already full?” anxiousness.

If so...
  • You can ask him to end it with her – not even be friends. He could say "No. I'm not going to end it with her." So be prepared for that.
  • Or you could change the question to address the behavior you want from him – “Could you please be willing to not bring me any extra problems and jobs at this time? I want to work on my abuse healing. ”
  • Or you could end it with him and remove yourself from the situation entirely because you don't want any more poly. That's not telling him what to do. That's removing YOU from stuff you don't want.

If she's his friend... great. Just don't be hanging out there so much that he neglects things at home. Chores, quality time spent with you, etc.

If she's (his kinda ex, kinda want to get back together) person? Great. They can figure out that out on their own time. On your end? You figure out if you want to be in a V thing again with THESE people.

Or if you prefer, bow out. Just cuz he picks you out, doesn't mean you are obligated to keep on picking him out. Stop to actually assess -- are you still into him? Want to be married? Not do marriage on "auto pilot" or like "going through the motions."

If you want to be here and try poly again... Be clear that you don't want veto power again. And you don't want to be hearing TMI details or having to step in to referee. You expect them to do their OWN conflict resolution stuff.

Make a personal boundary that YOU can obey. If it they bring you things that are not your job? You will say “No. This is not my job. You have to solve that with X and not involve me” and just lather, rinse, repeat.

Keep it WAY more simple on you and go for what YOU want – to find a therapist and work on your abuse healing.

I hope doing that work brings you healing and peace.

GL!

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 03-17-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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  #4  
Old 03-17-2019, 08:44 PM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Hi Janet,

It seems to me that before you can deal with anything else, you'll have to do something about your childhood trauma. I suggest you start looking around for a therapist. Use the links GalaGirl provided to help you find a poly-friendly therapist.

I also would advise you to ask your husband to not unload on you anymore when this other woman (his ex and friend) does stuff he doesn't like. It stresses you out, makes you feel like you have to be the referee, and fosters dislike between you and the other woman.

If you want help handling jealous/insecure feelings, you can try a few of the following links:
You do have a right to ask him to end things with her completely, the question is, do you want to. You seem to be concerned that it might constitute an ultimatum that would cause him to finally resent you. So that is something to think about. On the other hand, could you word it so that it is not an ultimatum, such as, "I would prefer it if you would end things with her completely, but I don't insist that you do that, it's not like I'll leave you if you don't." Or do you feel strongly enough about it that you would leave him over it? Something to consider.

You feel inadequate, like him spending time with her is an indicator that you're "not enough" ... like you don't provide him with enough emotional intimacy, and that is why he is spending time with her. This makes you feel anxious and insecure. In poly, sometimes a person wants to have two people in his life, even if the first person is perfectly adequate in the emotional intimacy area. Sometimes it's about wanting that second person, for the sake of variety or just having feelings for the second person that he wants to express. There isn't necessarily anything "wrong" with you, it's just that no one can *be* a second person. Does that make sense?

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts; I hope some of it helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:26 PM
MayDecember MayDecember is offline
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The point of the post seems to be justifying a relationship re-negotiation.

Your theory is that you are twice a victim.

The first victimization is by the brother, which you suppressed. That led to further victimization, the agreement "under duress" to allow your husband intimacy before he dies.

Forgive me for being frank here, but you need it. I was in exactly the same position as your husband.

I was divorcing her. She came with this revelation about childhood abuse after so many years of me begging her to tell me what was wrong.

We have an expression in my family because of it. "Do you know what the problem is with being too late?" "It's too late".

This revelation comes as a play to preserve power and control. You've framed it as you being an innocent victim, of course. But you are putting it to that use. "I get to re-negotiate because I am a victim".

It doesn't matter. Because you cannot put the Genie back in the bottle. It was already too late, you don't get to re-start the clock after over three decades of starving this man of intimacy. It was divorce or poly. It doesn't matter what caused your denial of intimacy. Your good intentions.

It does not give you power to put the genie back in the bottle. Once he has had intimacy with someone else, only magical thinking, irrational thinking, can have you believing you can compete with that.

I do not hear you saying that you are going to scratch this guy's itch. I hear you saying that so long as you can point to some kind of improvement, that should be good enough. Because you are a victim.

No, you deserve credit for your road to healing on the childhood abuse. That is a very separate issue. Sort that out, confronting the abuser is a huge step forward. Congratulations.

But your husband, no - it does not re-start the clock. It does not matter why you abused him. It has been framed as this insurmountable effort, something that cannot be expected out of you because again... you are a victim.

That does not change his need for intimacy, and the fact he has already had it with this woman makes it magical thinking it isn't going on now. It will continue. I can't prove that, I just have the other 99% of cases reporting in on infidelity fora and literature.

Forgive me. I am sorry you are struggling with this. But as I read it, you will not give this man the intimacy he craves. You offer improvement. Because you are a victim.

You also want to reneg on an agreement. He does not get the intimacy he craves from anyone else either.

Logically, the answer in the short term is to get it as one can, and lie to you about it. But that is no way to live.

Granting you the "authority" to renegotiate this agreement on the basis of victimhood: no, we do not have that power. You do not have that power. Nobody does.

For the good of all, yes: end the cycle of abuse. I did. My wife did. My brother did. My sister - well, let's hope for the best. For you: I hope you can fully heal, which means doing something you claim impossible now.

This is not the impossibility shop: making gold from lead since mideaval times. There was a man exhausted from decades of starvation re: intimacy.

Logically, he does not get that from you being a victim. It is the reverse: victimhood is submitted here as excusal from that intimacy.

Good luck to you, I hope this is taken warmly despite the frankness.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:21 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanetDammit View Post

I tried to reach out to her in IM to explain my position months ago, but she has yet to respond with anything other than that she needed to think about what I said.

Ö..Do I have right to ask him to end this completely with her to help me get over my emotional distress? I feel like I don't..
And your position is....? That you wanted him to get sex elsewhere. And then you changed your mind because X, Y, Z.

My guess is that she completely gets it. But the fact remains, you said 'go ahead, be more intimate, get closer, get your feelings involved by having sex with each other [because I don't want to/can't have sex with him.]' and you then told him to walk away from her.

Her position is that that's incredibly painful to

1. lose someone you love who has become a huge part of your life and
2. even worse, lose them because a third party told them to leave you.


What is there for her to say?


What do you want her to say? That it's okay, she understands, she's not hurt? Do you want her to trust you a second time? That anytime you want someone to fulfill your husband's sex drive, she'll be back--and then quietly leave when you don't want her around anymore?


I hope that you can understand her position.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:40 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDecember View Post
The point of the post seems to be justifying a relationship re-negotiation.

Your theory is that you are twice a victim.
Those are your words, not hers.

Quote:
The first victimization is by the brother, which you suppressed. That led to further victimization, the agreement "under duress" to allow your husband intimacy before he dies.
She didn't say anything about "duress."

Quote:
Forgive me for being frank here, but you need it.
You don't know what she needs.

Quote:
I was in exactly the same position as your husband.

I was divorcing her. She came with this revelation about childhood abuse after so many years of me begging her to tell me what was wrong.

We have an expression in my family because of it. "Do you know what the problem is with being too late?" "It's too late".

This revelation comes as a play to preserve power and control. You've framed it as you being an innocent victim, of course. But you are putting it to that use. "I get to re-negotiate because I am a victim".
No. She isn't saying that. She said her husband "put up with" little to no sex for 30 years. His choice. She was dominant. He was submissive. He went with what she was capable of. For reasons of his own.

She "gets to renegotiate" because they agreed together to have a veto in place. That was his choice as well as hers. Was it a good choice? No. But it's a common newbie idea.

Quote:
It doesn't matter. Because you cannot put the Genie back in the bottle. It was already too late, you don't get to re-start the clock after over three decades of starving this man of intimacy. It was divorce or poly. It doesn't matter what caused your denial of intimacy. Your good intentions.

It does not give you power to put the genie back in the bottle. Once he has had intimacy with someone else, only magical thinking, irrational thinking, can have you believing you can compete with that.
There was no mention of divorce. He just happened to find a friend he fell for. And Janet consented to a deepening relationship for them out of compassion, since she had a low libido. Now, her libido and emotional availability has increased. Which is great. But I do agree it's not especially kind to her husband or his lover to tell them they need to stop, just because she's healed somewhat.

Quote:
I do not hear you saying that you are going to scratch this guy's itch.
What a terrible way to put it! Why so crass?

Quote:
I hear you saying that so long as you can point to some kind of improvement, that should be good enough. Because you are a victim.
You're hearing something from your past, December. She didn't say "victim" once.

Quote:
No, you deserve credit for your road to healing on the childhood abuse. That is a very separate issue. Sort that out, confronting the abuser is a huge step forward. Congratulations.

But your husband, no - it does not re-start the clock. It does not matter why you abused him.
"Abused him"??? He agreed to little or no sex. 30 years of infrequent sex was his choice. He could have opened the marriage or left her decades ago if he had wanted to. He didn't want to, until now. It's not "abusing" a spouse to not give them sex. It's her body, her choice when to share it. Lots of couples have mismatched libidos. It's not abuse. This imbalance can be worked out in many ways. One of which is an open marriage.

Quote:
It has been framed as this insurmountable effort, something that cannot be expected out of you because again... you are a victim.
Again, your word. And she alone gets to decide how insurmountable the issues are. Not you.

Quote:
That does not change his need for intimacy, and the fact he has already had it with this woman makes it magical thinking it isn't going on now. It will continue. I can't prove that, I just have the other 99% of cases reporting in on infidelity fora and literature.

Forgive me. I am sorry you are struggling with this. But as I read it, you will not give this man the intimacy he craves. You offer improvement. Because you are a victim.
Hammer in that victim word, because I don't think she heard it yet.

Quote:
You also want to reneg on an agreement. He does not get the intimacy he craves from anyone else either.
Renegotiating is always an option, in any relationship.

Quote:
Logically, the answer in the short term is to get it as one can, and lie to you about it. But that is no way to live.

Granting you the "authority" to renegotiate this agreement on the basis of victimhood: no, we do not have that power. You do not have that power. Nobody does.
Again the V word...

Quote:
For the good of all, yes: end the cycle of abuse. I did. My wife did. My brother did. My sister - well, let's hope for the best. For you: I hope you can fully heal, which means doing something you claim impossible now.

This is not the impossibility shop: making gold from lead since mideaval times. There was a man exhausted from decades of starvation re: intimacy.

Logically, he does not get that from you being a victim.
Victim again.

Quote:
It is the reverse: victimhood is submitted here as excusal from that intimacy.

Good luck to you, I hope this is taken warmly despite the frankness.
I'm turned off entirely since you put the victim word in her mouth and then hammered it home... You used it 9 times. I saw her as trying her best to take responsibility. It's not her fault her brother abused her. It's not her fault she buried the memory. It's to her credit she recovered the memory, and has been released from the emotional withholding, and is attempting to heal, to be more emotionally and sexually available. It's to her credit she consented to her husband having a lover even before she had uncovered her memory of abuse. It's to her credit she came here to ask questions about what to do now. It's to her credit she is considering therapy (and I hope she gets it). She didn't "need" you to yell at her for being such a "victim." Yes, it comes across as yelling when you use that inappropriate word no less than 9 times, in a seeming tirade of words.
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Mags (poly, F, 63)
Pixi (poly, F, 41) my nesting partner since January 2009
Master, (mono, M, 37), Pixi's bf since April 2013
BigGuy (poly, M, married, 43, dating me since June 2018)

Last edited by Magdlyn; 03-19-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:33 AM
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vinsanity0 vinsanity0 is offline
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Mags, since when is someone who was sexually abused not a victim? Because they don't use the word? And then you say a veto is only not especially kind? The point is it is not kind at all, ever. He is saying it doesn't matter what the justification is, it is wrong to tell the husband to break it off. That includes the justification that he agreed to a veto in the first place. You even say veto power is a common newbie mistake. Think about why it is a mistake.

BTW, she did say she made the decision to go poly under duress. The claim is she was under duress, in hindsight, because she felt broken by a thing she didn't realize had occured at the time.

Last edited by vinsanity0; 03-20-2019 at 09:40 AM.
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