One partner decides, the other makes a choice

:rolleyes:

Okay, willing to go with that.. except WHY -- EXACTLY do you believe that makes any sense at all? As in, please state WTF your rationale is behind this statement. The amount of control IMPLICIT in a d/s relationship has a teeeeeensy little bit of effect, right...? Or is YOUR definition of "d/s" hugely different from mine...?

Wow...

Not all d/s relationship have the same amount of power exchange in them. Some people are totally owned by their masters, while others pretty much only participate in power dynamics in the bedroom. In my own d/s dynamic, I have a few things I'm supposed to do daily but other than that, there's not a whole lot of power exchange on a daily basis. Part of that is my dominant really hates power exchange dynamics that he has to micromanage someone in. Part of it is that we don't live together and we both have other partners, so there are some parts of my life that he doesn't get a say in, even if he wanted to. So, yes, Tinwen's definition of d/s could be totally different than yours and still be perfectly valid.

The original poster didn't feel like the d/s dynamic had enough to do with the situation to mention it directly in the description of the issues she's having, so I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that the dynamic can pretty much be ignored in addressing the issues that the OP is describing. The much bigger issue, in my opinion, is the lying, cheating, and rewriting history to make Mango and Carrot look good and the op look bad.
 
When I initially met his partners, I wanted to know their boundaries to make sure I didn't overstep any of them. This being my first poly relationship, I want to do it well. An example is the first meeting. I wasn't affectionate with him. I didn't know how they would feel about it and I thought it was respectful.

Nothing wrong with that. You can ask people to make you aware of their boundaries so you aren't stepping on toes inadvertently. You are not a mind reader. Most people will be able to see that you mean well.

The chance of "recidivism" is likely high when it comes to Carrot. It also leaves room for another, should he decide to see someone else.

I wonder if you feel safe with high odds like that. Do you think this is going to be a merry-go-round that never ends? :confused:

If you do not like the odds and are no longer willing to pay the price of admission? Could not pay for another ticket to this ride.

My only options are to believe he is remorseful and will tell me the truth from now on. Or walk.

You are correct.

  • You can choose to walk now because you have had enough and don't see it changing any time soon.
  • You can choose to stay and give a second chance to see if he actually "delivers the goods." (While keeping your option to walk later on if it turns out he is all talk and no show.)

Because talking behavior is cheap when not ALSO supported by action behaviors? You could clarify to yourself what action behaviors you expect from this point on.
What are "the goods" he has to deliver for you to be willing to stay? Is he willing and able to deliver them?

  • Actions that he will start doing?
  • Actions that he will stop doing?

List your deal breakers clearly.

  • If he says he is willing to do them? Then you are in agreement. You allow time to see if he holds them up. If he chooses to break his agreements again? You walk.
  • If he says he is not willing to do them? You know you won't be treated like you want to be treated here. Thank him for his honesty and walk.

I get that you love him and all. But it IS possible to end something with regrets and NOT give second or third chances. Because it doesn't feel good or safe and you are no longer willing to pay the price of admission only to get dinged. Instead you move yourself out of the line of fire and make yourself "un-dingable."

You have care about you and your well being just a bit more than anyone else's. You can love someone lots -- even all the way up to 49% of your love energy. But you leave the remaining 51% of your love for you. So you don't let your soft feelings for someone tempt you into staying in a hurtful situation and damaging yourself further. :(

Galagirl
 
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OP, it's not up to you to rebuild trust; it's up to Mango to prove himself trustworthy. You need to think about what that would look like. However, if I were you, I'd take a break from this relationship for a few months and see what happens, how you feel. He hasn't demonstrated the ability to be able to handle poly honestly, nor to be responsible for his own actions. You deserve better than that.
 
Is he showing any sighns of remorse?

Yes. He acknowledged he fucked up. If He had been open from the beginning, things would be better between he and I.
The action behind his words is what I have to hold on to right now. That's also part of the problem. I feel it's my fault he broke up with her. I didn't ask that, and wouldn't ask that of him. My decision was about me, for me. I couldn't take anymore.
He said he made the right decision. There's more in play than me, so to me it didn't come down to me or her.
Sorry if I'm answering things out of order, I'm on my phone and just now catching up.
 
I feel it's my fault he broke up with her. I didn't ask that, and wouldn't ask that of him. My decision was about me, for me. I couldn't take anymore.
You are not responsible for his choices, even if they were made in response to your actions. If he would prefer to remain broken up with you and stay with her, then that is what he should choose to do. If he would prefer to break up with her and stay with you, then that is what he should choose to do.

Conversely, he is not responsible for your choices in response to his actions. If you choose to stay with him while he guilt-trips you for not putting up with an intolerable situation, then that is your choice and yours alone. Neither of you can change the other's actions; all you can control is how you choose to respond to them.
 
Galagirl, thank you again for your input. It's the hard questions I need to answer up to. There's no point in just bitching if I'm not going to make a positive change.
I don't feel safe and it is a merry go round. My fear is that asking him now if he's completely done and means it would be like pushing him to make a decision. To Him, it's a choice.
I live by the rule, my actions must match my words, or my words mean nothing.
Something I struggle with is holding him to his word. As the Master, he holds himself to his word and that keeps me safe. It's not my place to put rules or restrictions on him. I do take him at his word. If He says something and does the opposite, it's going to break is down. If I question him, it's going to be hurtful to our relationship.
The price of admission is I'm an all or nothing person.
I have discussed my boundaries with him and there hasn't been an issue. He knows he's free to choose all his relationships. The way I see it, what is the point of being in anyour relationship and half assing it. If I can't fully submit, why submit at all.
I do love myself. I want to be happy, I want to be happy with him and his current partners.
I wish I could change the past, I wish she weren't the person she is, I wish he would have been honest from the beginning. I think I came into his life at a rough time. There was already a struggle going on and my coming in made matters worse. I make him happy, he makes me happy.
He needs to feel safe talking to me, even if it hurts, as long as it's true is all that matters. I want to know how he feels and I hope encouraging him to tell me works.
I cant live with knowing he sees me as the reason he isn't in that relationship. Like i said before there are several valid reasons which have nothing to do with me.
Hearing him say them out loud and acknowledge those things is why I was willing to work through it together along with having the hard talks.
I feel pressed because I'm going to be moving. To move closer to them is ideal for all of us. The thought of making a big decision like that is weighing on me. I'm looking for a guarantee I can't really have one way or the other, I know that.
I'm very grateful for all the advice I've gotten here.
Thank you all so much for your time.
 
I agree with Emm.

He cannot blame you for his choices. If he chose to dump Carrot in favor of asking his established partners to come back? That was his choice. He could have chosen to stick with Carrot and let you, Apple, and Banana go.

When he asked you, Apple, and Banana to come back? You all could have said NO. That was your choice to make - accept him back or not.

If he's blame shifting and guilt tripping and doing "Woe is me! I have no Carrot because you won't let me have Carrot!" stuff? And you choose to hang around listening to that? That is your choice. You could choose to leave again and not give him a second chance.

I'm looking for a guarantee I can't really have one way or the other, I know that.

I thought that was why you were making a pros/cons list of his behaviors. To help you decide if giving this another shot is worth your while or not. I don't think it is. You say you don't feel safe there with him. What more do you need?

I feel it's my fault he broke up with her. I didn't ask that, and wouldn't ask that of him. My decision was about me, for me. I couldn't take anymore.

It might sound persnickety, but could leave "feel" for your emotions and "think" for your thoughts. Not use them interchangeably.

So it becomes...

I THINK it's my fault he broke up with her.

Then you correct your initial thinking with some facts.

  • I didn't ask that, and wouldn't ask that of him.
  • My decision (to break up with him) was about me, for me. I couldn't take it anymore.

Conclusion: It is NOT your doing or fault that he dumped Carrot then. It was all his choice. Is he still blaming your for his actions?

I don't feel safe and it is a merry go round. My fear is that asking him now if he's completely done and means it would be like pushing him to make a decision. To Him, it's a choice.

So ask what you need to know so you can be reassured. If he "feels pushed" so what? :confused:

What would happen? He would dump you? Well, you were dumping him anyway when you were returning his things. And you seem to want to know one way or another. So it really isn't much to lose but a lot of wanted CLARITY to gain! Go ahead and ask! Don't pussyfoot.

Or make your choice to leave without his input because you merely traded one intolerable (Carrot wacky) for another (him blaming and acting out and you feeling unsafe.)

Something I struggle with is holding him to his word. As the Master, he holds himself to his word and that keeps me safe. It's not my place to put rules or restrictions on him. I do take him at his word. If He says something and does the opposite, it's going to break is down. If I question him, it's going to be hurtful to our relationship.

To me that sounds like

"I am the Master. Whatever I say goes. It's not your place to tell me what I can and cannot do."

When actually as the sub? You CAN tell him what he can and cannot do as your Dom when you negotiate. He certainly cannot sell you, or tie you up and leave you for dead! Sheesh!

The Dom only exists at the consent of the sub. If you no longer feel safe here with him as your Master/BF, you inform him that you no longer want him as your Master/BF. You no longer consent to participate here.

If you cannot do that in your power exchange dynamic, and leave of your own free will? It is not consenting power exchange. He wants power OVER you. Which may lead to abuse of power. Tread carefully.

I cant live with knowing he sees me as the reason he isn't in that relationship.

Ok, say you ARE at fault. Since he blames you for not being able to have Carrot? You leave.

You gone = he can have Carrot again.

You gone = now you can live again because he has Carrot again. You are no longer the reason he has no Carrot. And you don't have to deal with intolerable Carrot. Or deal with him blaming you any more.

Problem solved.

I feel pressed because I'm going to be moving. To move closer to them is ideal for all of us. The thought of making a big decision like that is weighing on me.

Do NOT move in with them. If you move, move to your own apartment. Or don't move at all until this is resolved.

You do not need to go from frying pan into the fire.

Galagirl
 
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The dynamic is M/s, which makes this situation all the more difficult.
Ok, I know it was me who said you could leave Ms dynamics out of this (and I still believe that's not the point - Galagirl has the point), but since you DO struggle with it, I'll comment :D

The price of admission is I'm an all or nothing person.
I don't really understand, what do you mean by that? "Complete" submission, if there is such a thing? Who'se standard is this "all or nothing" - is that what you want? Or is this his rule, his price of admission?
I have discussed my boundaries with him and there hasn't been an issue. He knows he's free to choose all his relationships. The way I see it, what is the point of being in our relationship and half assing it. If I can't fully submit, why submit at all.
So here it seems, it's your standard. You want to be in a relationship where you can fully submit.

What does full submission include? Does that include deciding about your finances? Other partners? Health? Your freedom to leave the relationship?
I doubt that.
To me, there is nothing like full submission. You choose the areas where you both are able and willing to play with power exchange.

The depth of submission, to me, is closely tied with the depth of the relationship, and should be really based on trust - trust in all the areas you want to include in the power exchange.
Do you trust him to watch your health and your enjoyment when he ties you up? Great, go. You don't? For heavens sake don't do it.
It's the same in other areas. Do you trust him to manage interaction between you and the other subs to the best of everyone? Ok, you could leave it up to him. You don't? Well, you can't submit there, you will have to evaluate the situation for yourself and say a "no" to him sometimes.

I certainly have areas where I don't trust my Dom. One of them, where he did want control, and I wanted to grant it to a certain degree, is to decide about me being intimate with someone else. Then, when a date came, I found out that I needed more freedom than I previously thought, but more importantly, that he doesn't have a good grasp on his jealousy and a detached enough view for me to trust him to decide well for me.
(You can read about the conflict here http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=322131&postcount=10 )
So, full stop here. He doesn't get control about my other partners.
If he can get a handle on his jealousy, if he learns about my style and difficulties in dating, if he understands that getting to know someone is a slow process, if he can shows enough respect towards my potentials -- then I might consider asking him before intimacy. Maybe.

What I want to say is, you don't have to be submissive in everything on earth to be submissive.

You don't even have to trust your partner in everything. You can trust him to support you emotionally but not trust him to handle his own jealousy, and that's ok.

But I think what you might be actually saying with that all-or-nothing statement is, that you do want to trust more. You want to trust your Master enough to submit in the important areas.

You often read that submission is a gift to the dominant (and the other way round) - and it is. But is is a gift that CAN be taken back.
Also, the more all-or-nothing person you are, the deeper you want to submit, the more carefully should you choose your masters.
Something I struggle with is holding him to his word. As the Master, he holds himself to his word and that keeps me safe. It's not my place to put rules or restrictions on him. I do take him at his word. If He says something and does the opposite, it's going to break is down. If I question him, it's going to be hurtful to our relationship.
You name it. Isn't this what happened? He cheated and lied to you, so he didn't hold his word as a Master?
He's supposed to keep you safe, yet he hurt you himself?
You say you cannot question his word. But then... the standard HE holds himself to should be really high. A Dominant, to me, should strive to be the best version of himself.
If you don't trust him after breaking his word? And it breaks down the Ms dynamics? You could choose not to submit. You could choose to break up or date him without power exchange, at least outside of sex.

Not everyone will agree, but generally, I think that putting DS dynamics asside when resolving major conflicts is best. But I don't want to submit in a "slave" sense.

If you don't want to break up, I won't tell you that you have to, that you should, that it's the right choice for you. Maybe this man indeed has some qualities. Maybe you need this learning experience a little longer. But I think you could shed any feelings of guilt you have around "not submitting enough". In my experience, submission tastes so much better if it is truly given freely.
 
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To me, there is nothing like full submission. You choose the areas where you both are able and willing to play with power exchange.

Kaycee, this is really important. You would benefit by some good mentoring of experienced and confident subs. Tinwen is correct that there is no such thing as absolute submission and giving up your will is not the point of a D/S relationship. Even a 24-7 M/S relationship involves many choices on the part of the slave. Are you on Fetlife? There are some good groups there where you can get started connecting with others who are mature and have fulfilling, positive experience in this kind of relationship. The sub/slave's awareness and empowerment of choice is essential to every aspect of submission.
 
All or nothing is my effort. I give all of my heart in relationships. I give my all with work, friendships, living my best life.
My submission includes time spent away from him. Curfew, bedtime, who I go out with, the extent of friendships with males, at this point it's extending to career choices and relocation. Not moving in with his family, just closer. As it is I'm about 45 minutes away.
My choice to submit in the beginning was hard because I've always worn the pants, so to speak. With him it felt right. Since the breach in trust I've had doubts.
I'm dedicated to being a great slave and he knows that.
I'm not sure if it's a requirement or if it's something he sees in me and wants to keep.
I've never had more than one partner and I have a lot of work to do on myself before I consider taking that leap. Finances aren't included, we do look after each other's health. I'm kind of a health nut. As far as play gies, I trust him completely. He wouldn't intentionally hurt me physically or emotionally. I think it's part of his struggle, he worries about my happiness in this relationship. He worries if Carrot does or says something that will upset me I will leave, which is not the case. His authentic feelings and mine are what makes this relationship.
He doesn't balance the relationships between his existing partners. We do all choose how involved we are with each other. I avoid triangulation and when I have an issue I go to the source. If it can't be resolved then I give it over to him. I do want to trust Him more. I know we can't have what we had before, I believe that transparency is the only way to rebuild trust and come out stronger.
If I have to leave the relationship/dynamic, there is no going back. In my past, when a relationship has been broken it stayed that way. No contact, just cut off. This is the first time I've ever tried repairing one. This is the first time I've ever wanted to. I used to have an account I use to learn about M/s and polyamory.
I know that I have to consent to each aspect of the power exchange and it's something I take very seriously. I'm dedicated to the dynamic. During our break up it was hard communicating anger and frustration because I didn't want to behave in a way that would cause him to doubt my submission is genuine. I was worried about jumping right back into the dynamic and decided to do it in good faith. I want to give this the best chance I can because I don't want regrets. I have learned a lot about myself and grown as a person in a lot of ways during this relationship.
It took a long time to see his mistakes. I had him on a pedestal in a sense. I blamed Carrot for things that aren't her fault. She only gets the information she has from him since I won't communicate with her anymore. I've thought about sitting down with her one on one to talk, she asked me to a while back and I said no. She wants him to be there and I don't think that would be beneficial. If there's an audience she would put on a show and I see no point in getting to know someone if they aren't authentic.
I pity Carrot. I thought I was the cause of her pain and have come to learn better.
I need informed consent and as much information as possible before I make any major decisions in my life.
 
:rolleyes:

Really. Huh.

She, A, B & C, their SO as "M" & that doesn't leap out at you...? And her original (before editing) signature said that "Mango" a.k.a. M is her freakin' MASTER??????? Jeeeeeezus spare me... :rolleyes:

Your sarcasm and aggression are neither helpful nor appreciated. An improvement in your discussion skills would be appreciated by many.
 
Honestly, it just doesn't sound like this guy has his life together enough to be out there playing Master outside the bedroom/dungeon. They're called "Masters" for a reason. It implies a certain, you know, mastery of the things they're expecting to control... that they have enough skill and experience to teach you and help you improve those areas of your own life.

I mean, someone who won't even read a book about polyamory and is juggling four women, does lying and cheating behaviour... This is the person from whom you will learn to manage your own relationships?

Trust rebuilding begins with the betrayer, not the betrayed. When it's possible, it takes time, many demonstrations of honesty and trustworthiness, of sustained and genuine effort to fix mistakes. The loss of relationship trust is hard enough, but I don't see how it would ever be possible to trust him with your submission when he's proven himself so blatantly incompetent with his own life!
 
Ditto to BOTH of SchrodingersCat's last posts!
 
How are things going Kaycee?
 
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