the story of a secondary

G&E are having troubles with money. And Gia just posted to a small circle of friends on a social network that she is upset, stressed, and worried about finding new childcare she trusts for Bee. It kinda stings that she hasn't asked me to step up and do a day a week, when I've offered multiple times. They need two days a week, so it wouldn't solve their whole problem, but it would save them money and I know they trust me with him, so what the heck? Are they uncomfortable with the idea of me stepping into a role that feels too co-parent-y? Or do they just not think I was serious?

Having friends and loved ones watch your kids full time is tricky, don't take it personally. One wrong move then everyone is upset with eveyone else and resentments start building on both sides. As parents, we want things done OUR way and it's hard to insist on certain things when we are dealing with family and friends verses those we pay to do a job. I was always worried that family and friends would think I was taking advantage of them. So I wouldn't automatically assume it's about trust or feeling too co-parent-y. My advice, sit them down and make them an official offer, not just something said in passing. Put a time limit on your offer (2, 3, 6 months or such) so they have time to find another care provider and save some money in the mean time.
 
I'm proud of you for having made a decision on the Davis case! Love reading your blog, as always.
 
Updates!

I took SN's advice about coming up with a specific proposal for watching Bee -- one month of me taking off one weekday a month -- and brought it up to Gia on the lazy Saturday afternoon that we spent together this past weekend. Her response was that they think they can get Liza (their MILF friend that Eric has been hooking up with) to take on Bee's daycare needs, which will be really helpful to her since she could use extra cash. She said that I could help by filling in if there's an emergency, even though I cautioned her that it's hard for me to take off work without notice.

I finally asked Gia if she's interested at all in Liza, which has remained a faint, back-of-the-mind insecurity. She said that 1) no, she's not interested, and 2) Liza is completely straight anyway. Ha! I can't believe I didn't just ask earlier. :) :)

We talked online today and we finally set up a once-a-month recurring babysitting evening for me and Bee, so that she and Eric can go out. She now has two people committed to doing this, as our friend Bill has also volunteered, and she has two more friends she plans to ask, which would give them one night free per week and would actually lead to she and I having real, regular date nights again!!

During the course of the convo, I long-windedly reiterated that I won't be able to do the last minute fill-in thing often and she got a little exasperated, asking why I kept going over that point while simultaneously saying she should feel free to ask me... what was I trying to say?

I took a deep metaphorical breath and laid it all out on the table, saying that what was driving my words was something I hadn't felt comfortable expressing quite straightforwardly... that I really wanted to spend more time with Bee and that, as irrational as it is since I can't handle of all his daycare needs, I've been jealous of the women who've gotten the opportunity to do so. And I've been scared to ask for more time with him when it wasn't for a serious need of theirs or at their request, because I've felt unsure of my place in his life. I basically want to co-parent but haven't brought it up in those terms because 1) it's not really feasible now anyway, and 2) it might seem like too much to be offering, like it would be somehow intimidating or inappropriate for me to want that.

Gia explained again that they need someone who can reliably and consistently cover the two days of daycare he needs per week (which I knew), but said that she'd be happy to have me more involved and that one way I could do that would be to come over during the week on one of the days that she or Eric is home with him and just hang out, allowing them to be with their child but also to get work done around the house and keep things in better order. I said that sounded like a really good idea. We may also set up a second monthly recurring babysitting night for me, after they've had a chance to adjust to this new schedule and see how it's going. One concern for them is that they actually don't want to spend too much time away from their child, even if they do have the offers to babysit, because the time is just so precious.

She also said, in regards to co-parenting, that she didn't think it was something Eric would ever be down for. This is what I would have guessed... he can be so private and insular, I just can't imagine him thinking of an outside person as a third parent to his child without some radical changes to his thinking or a LOT more time and involvement. Opening up to one person, Gia, took so long for him, and he seems to be happy to leave it at that when it comes to his internal, emotional life. Add to that the fact that he's so fiercely and fully bonded to her and to Bee, and clearly puts that family unit miles above any other person or concern, and it becomes hard to see that mindset softening into something less rigid. Those are my musings on the matter, anyway.

Any time I begin to drift into triadic daydreams about Gia and Eric, like the idea of living with them at some point, I can just stop and remind myself exactly who Eric is and I come back to earth. Maybe he could open up, some day, but it's not worth expecting or pining for. I'm proud of how much more realistic I've become about this fact.

All that said, Gia told me that she thinks of the whole co-parenting concept much more fluidly than that. She pointed out that regular care-taking IS basically co-parenting, just without the making of life decisions.

Phew. It was an intense conversation, to be sure. I was glad to have it all out in the open, and grateful to her for taking the time to work through it with me. I *almost* brought up the whole "I think of us as family" discussion in the midst of it all, but I thought better of it. One heavy topic at a time. And I still don't feel like it's the right time for that... I have a need to talk about most issues, but some things ought to be given their own time to mature and just be what they are, and I think this is one of them. Note also all the stuff I said above about Eric and the way he is. If some sort of formal, verbal declaration of relation is something I don't think he can give me any more than he could tell me he loves me, then why force him into the position of rejecting me? Especially when I feel treated with great consideration and fairness in my position In their lives?

There's just one more thing to be resolved at the moment on this front. It actually occurred to me while I was writing this. I want very much for Gia and Eric to have "adult alone time" together in their house on a regular basis... in other words, I want them to be able to get it on, which I know is waaay hard for them when Bee is around. In theory, I could facilitate that by watching Bee. But in reality, I think I wouldn't be able to handle it if, say, I were down the street at the diner watching Bee while they were intimate, like Eric did for me, or god forbid if I were in the living room while they were in the bedroom. Not while Gia and I still don't have that. I would just freak out. :/

So, I need to set a boundary about that. No sex while I'm babysitting *unless* I'm taking Bee to my house, which I think somehow would make it ok for me. Hard to explain, but I'm pretty sure that would be alright. Wow, a for-real boundary! I feel like such a poly grown-up... and I am SO fucking frustrated that things are still at this point. :( I understand why it's this way, and I know that I'm doing the right thing for both Gia and myself by continuing to invest in this relationship and being patient, but I'm worried I won't be able to do this indefinitely. Hopefully, it won't be too much longer.

I honestly somehow thought this would be a fairly short post. Hah! Fat chance. More later on my conversation with Davis.
 
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Having friends and loved ones watch your kids full time is tricky, don't take it personally. One wrong move then everyone is upset with eveyone else and resentments start building on both sides. As parents, we want things done OUR way and it's hard to insist on certain things when we are dealing with family and friends verses those we pay to do a job. I was always worried that family and friends would think I was taking advantage of them. So I wouldn't automatically assume it's about trust or feeling too co-parent-y. My advice, sit them down and make them an official offer, not just something said in passing. Put a time limit on your offer (2, 3, 6 months or such) so they have time to find another care provider and save some money in the mean time.

Thanks, SN, this advice really helped, and I incorporated it into my approach as mentioned in my last post. :) It's soooo useful to have the perspective of someone who's been there. I miss LR's presence on the boards...
 
I'm proud of you for having made a decision on the Davis case! Love reading your blog, as always.

That's really sweet, BU, thank you! It's good to "see" you, and to hear that things are going well in your life. :)
 
It seems that you really got to talk! That's good. I really admire how you take into account Eric's personality and boundaries even as you dream about more involvement. I think as long as it isn't a need for you, but a want, you aren't selling yourself short, and you are accepting and respecting him as he is. That isn't always so easy, but I find it to be essential in loving relationships (whether romantic or not).
 
Any time I begin to drift into triadic daydreams...
I love this phrase, it could be the title of a poly romance novel - Triadic Daydreams. Haha!


I want very much for Gia and Eric to have "adult alone time" together in their house on a regular basis... in reality, I think I wouldn't be able to handle it if, say, I were down the street at the diner watching Bee while they were intimate, like Eric did for me, or god forbid if I were in the living room while they were in the bedroom. Not while Gia and I still don't have that. I would just freak out. :/

This really surprises me, and confuses me a bit, considering how well you know them and that they are married, and you have been sort of waiting to regain your relationship with Gia, and everyone's been honest and open, and all along you've diligently been working on your shit, so to speak. It's not like they've taken a break from each other or something. What would make you uncomfortable? Aren't they having sex now, when Bee is sleeping? Why would you babysitting Bee make their "adult alone time" any different? I guess I'm confused because I know how much you love them both and I picture you just beaming if they were given the opportunity to have romantic sexy times together without worrying about Bee. It sounds a little like envy, and like you've been influenced in some way (perhaps by someone else's insecurities?) because I don't "get" you as the type of partner that would freak out about that.
 
@Nyc -- I love the idea of them having sex, I want that for them. And I've been considering whether or not this would *actually* happen, but... I have this all too plausible vision of them in their bedroom while I'm in the living room with Bee and me hearing them moaning and then me just starting to cry. It's one thing to understand and accept rationally why I'm not sharing that sort of contact with her/them right now. I think it'd be another to have it so close, to be given aural and visual cues to help me visualize it, and to STILL not be sharing in it myself and not knowing when I might get to do so. I would remember all the times we were intimate in that house, that it was the three of us in that bed, which is normally something I try NOT to dwell on in order to stay in a mindset where I can be accepting and patient and chill.

I don't see it as a matter of insecurity, I see it as a matter of avoiding a situation that might bring all of my sad feelings about my physical separation from my partners to a painful boil. So, envy, yes. But insecurity would be being afraid of being left out and this isn't a matter of irrational fear... I AM being left out, completely, and have been for more than a year. It hadn't been easy, not at all, even though I've managed to be pretty sanguine about it lately.
 
I don't see it as a matter of insecurity, I see it as a matter of avoiding a situation that might bring all of my sad feelings about my physical separation from my partners to a painful boil. So, envy, yes. But insecurity would be being afraid of being left out and this isn't a matter of irrational fear... I AM being left out, completely, and have been for more than a year. It hadn't been easy, not at all, even though I've managed to be pretty sanguine about it lately.

I didn't mean by what I said that you sounded insecure, but I wondered if someone else you know who might be feeling a little insecure and emotionally shaky might have triggered you regarding this situation. It was just a hunch and I could be totally wrong.

I guess what surprises me is that I got the impression that you've been around them so much over the last year even while not being as involved with Gia as much as you were before, and I guess I assumed that you'd been nearby or in proximity while they were intimate -- and I thought you had come to a much more okay place about it all because she has made some attempts at rekindling what you had.

Sorry, didn't mean to stir up anything more about it, but it sounds like you're pretty clear about how you feel and what's going on with you. I think asking for a boundary that you take Bee out so you don't have to hear them would be a good thing, if hearing them would make you cry (although crying when you're alone can be so healing).
 
Gotcha. I can't think of any outside thing that would have triggered this, though I appreciate the opportunity to consider it. And no, I haven't seen them do more than kiss briefly since Gia conceived, I really appreciate their circumspection. If it did all go down in the way I'm fearing, regardless of whether the tears were healing for me I think Gia would be utterly traumatized and ashamed if she happened to realize that her intimacy with Eric had made me cry (it's a small house and sound travels well). Feeling selfish is very painful for her.
 
I enjoyed reading your post! You're such a good sport! Let them happy, try to find new love. Being in that situation is hard, so try to put your attention to others.

Thanks! I actually do have another serious partner and, happily, I also have a very active life in general, so I'm not focused on this aspect of my situation all the time by any means. I used to dwell a lot more than I do now, as some of my older posts may attest.

It seems that you really got to talk! That's good. I really admire how you take into account Eric's personality and boundaries even as you dream about more involvement. I think as long as it isn't a need for you, but a want, you aren't selling yourself short, and you are accepting and respecting him as he is. That isn't always so easy, but I find it to be essential in loving relationships (whether romantic or not).

Thanks, R. :) I feel lucky that I came along at a point when he understood himself enough to communicate what he's about, their ex Jen came along before he had that level of self-knowledge and that seems to have caused the lion's share of their problems. The trick for me is to try to assess and make sure I'm not letting what I know of him just give me an excuse to be timid (i.e. "Oh, he wouldn't go for this anyway, so I don't need to open myself to scary rejection by asking"... when maybe he would). I think I'm walking the right side of that line, but at times I haven't been so sure.
 
I don't have time for the full Davis update, but I wanted to share this tidbit. I was perplexed that he didn't seem to want me to come to this particular out of town event that he and Jay are going to go to next month. I began to get a little offended and asked why he wouldn't want me there. His halting response:

"Well, ok, so... this is going to sound bad, but, it's like Jay is um... like, my version of Gia? Argh. [speaking faster] It's just we usually spend time together at my house and other people are usually around so we don't get to...have... err, couple time......"

It was clear from his tone that he was waiting for me to start mocking him. I guess he didn't realize that when I call Jay his boyfriend I'm not trying to make fun of him even if I'm teasing a little... I'm acknowledging in a playful way how important this person is in his life. I cleared that up and we talked a little about the idea of non-sexual, non-romantic partners who are nevertheless more than friends. Like Jay and Silent Bob in the Kevin Smith movies being "hetero lifemates."

So, it's official. Jay is his secondary partner. He even agreed with me on the usage of that term to describe it. Though I doubt he'd ever say it to Jay quite like that... :D And yes, yes, I know there's already a term for that, "best friends." But let me have this. :D
 
oh Annabel, that's too much! ROFLMAO
 
Oh yes, I have exactly the same thing with Flattie! Sismance perhaps?
 
"Well, ok, so... this is going to sound bad, but, it's like Jay is um... like, my version of Gia? Argh. [speaking faster] It's just we usually spend time together at my house and other people are usually around so we don't get to...have... err, couple time......"

He needs his "male bonding" time, at least that's what my best friends husband always called it.
 
He needs his "male bonding" time, at least that's what my best friends husband always called it.

Yup, it's kind of adorable that he's so socially awkward that he couldn't just phrase it in a simple way like that. :) But I guss he was trying to relate to me on the poly thing, and he was right, it did totally strike a chord and help me understand where he was coming from.
 
Aiight, time for the Davis update.

I hadn't found a good time to talk to him about my move-in decisions. Stuff kept getting in the way, like other friends being around or it being super late (he's expressed a preference for not having important discussions when he's tired because he's not very good at it).

We were driving to a friend's party when we fell into a not-unfamiliar-lately pattern of him saying something that bugged me, me telling him, and him getting annoyed that I took his comment in a negative light when he didn't mean it that way. I don't remember what it was about exactly. But instead of going into the party once we arrived, we sat outside and kept talking for at least an hour, both realizing that the conversation had become something way more important than a brief squabble over wording or tone.

We talked about the problems we've had with comunication, as illustrated in the paragraph above, and where they might be coming from. Over the course of the conversation he shared a realization that he'd had while we were talking -- that he's been putting up barriers because until he sees more commitment from me (such as a promise to move in together), he isn't able to believe that I'm serious about this and he doesn't want to get too excited and passionate and vulnerable only to have me break his heart again.

On my end, I haven't been willing to commit to him more because, among other things, I've felt as if he's not really "there" in this as much as I've been... which, in fact, we now both understand he hasn't been. I don't want to entangle our lives and build the logistics of making this a real primary partnership until I feel like I can believe that it'll work and enrich us both, and for that I need open and strong communication. Catch-22. :/

One recent incident had been worrying me the most, and he and I rehashed it during our talk. It was several weeks ago, we were in bed together getting ready to fall asleep (this is where the "no big talks late at night" rule ended up coming from) when I finally got up the courage to say "I'm worried that we have different, like... I'm not sure, core values, life goals, ways of living?... and that this might make it hard for us to work out in the long term." His response was to try, poorly, to cover his irritation, and to reassure me that this wasn't worth worrying over and that the proof would be in the pudding... that we should just go for it and find out rather than trying to guess the future.

I felt offended at his irritation and like I was being dismissed, while he was annoyed at feeling blindsided by what he saw as some vague neuroses he couldn't hope to address. I feel like it's fair to say that I could have brought it up in a better or clearer way. To some degree I guess I was just trying to get *something* going in the way of serious conversation because I was feeling uneasy about things and I thought a serious talk could help with that or else confirm that something was actually wrong. Being cut off in that context didn't feel pleasant.

What really bothered me, though, was that he didn't bring it back up in the days or weeks after that to try to check in with me, to make sure I was feeling more ok about things. I don't expect my partners to be mind readers, so it seems unfair to say he should have known to talk to me about it, but the way I saw it I was bringing up fundamental concerns about our relationship and even if he didn't think they were valid just the fact that I was questioning things at such a deep level should have been reason enough for him to try to engage in dialogue with me and work it out. Personally I didn't feel up to bringing it up again because I felt like I'd already been shot down once. Him not pursuing it made me feel like he didn't care.

When I explained all this he said he thought I'd bring it up again myself if there was really anything to talk about, and he was confused and offended that I might possibly think he didn't care. I told him that it wasn't a rational thing but that I NEED to be allowed to be a *little* insecure now and then and to get reassurance from him in those times, not indignation.

Maybe it's just that, having dated a woman for a good long while now, I'm completely unused to someone who's more "male", who's not all about processing every feeling. It frustrates me especially because I used to feel like communication was one of our strongest points. We talked SO much and collaborated so well when it came to figuring out how to handle the mono/poly thing. And now I feel like I keep running into these fucking barriers when there's stuff that *I'm* insecure about.

He said something that really surprised me, even though it shouldn't have, given all the mono/poly stories I've read here. He admitted that he's been afraid that I see him as interchangeable. Rather than getting offended at this (coughcoughDavis... bleh, I can't stop sniping at him for that even now, it just annoys me so deeply), I explained to him why it wasn't true and it seemed to help him. One thing that's freaked him out is that he's felt at times like I'm weighing my options, like I'm not really committed (back to this concern again), and the thing is, he's not wrong at this point. I admitted as much, that I do NOT know yet if I'm willing to build my life around this relationship. But he is still absolutely precious and unique to me.

Rather than bring it up as a list of demands, I ended up scattering my concerns about the trio of health issues (mental, physical, and financial) that might keep me from feeling comfortable moving in with him throughout the conversation. On the money thing, he outlined the debts that he's cleared and talked to me about what he's currently working on (a mix up with his old insurance provider). I'd like a more thorough accounting of all that, but I wasn't going to ask for it just then. It sounds, at least, like things have been much better. On the health thing, he explained why he hasn't done it yet (fear, basically) and said he would do so when his insurance kicks in for his new job, in a couple of months. Good news!

On the therapy thing........ that was kind of a no go. :( He said that he's working on his issues every single day, that he has things more in control than he ever has, and that he knows that if he goes to therapy when he doesn't feel ready it'll just be a waste of time and make him feel resentful. He said that he's absolutely certain that he'll return to therapy at some point, but that now is not the time and I need to respect his self-knowledge and trust him on that. He also said that he doesn't like feeling like he's on trial and like I'm picking at his flaws all the time.

I'm just not so sure. :/ I want so much for him to take the offensive on this issue in a way I can visibly see... him saying he's fighting the good fight internally is all well and good but it doesn't assuage what I think are my very legitimate fears the way knowing he was checking in with a professional would. I told him that this in particular could be a barrier to me wanting to co-habitate. In response he told me that he doesn't like ultimatums, and I explained the difference in my eyes between an ultimatum and a boundary. We left it unresolved for now.

So much negativity... it just leaves me not feeling the romance or passion in our relationship right now, the things that would provide the glue to hold us strongly together as we work on these things. I'm not giving up, but I'm feeling discouraged, even as we manage to make progress (just understanding the Catch-22 we'd gotten ourselves into is huge).

I wrote up and sent him a draft list of relationship agreements for his review, covering the various things that have caused us friction that we need to avoid and that have bonded us together that we need to continue, covering Communication, Time Spent Together, Sex, and Other People. He hasn't responded yet, I'm VERY curious to see what he says. It's kind of crucial to me right now that he take this seriously and give me at least some feedback... so, we'll see.

While all this has been simmering, I've still been seeking out fun events to go to together and keeping an eye out for people who might be a good fit to take over my current lease if I do decide to move into a new place with him. Still working on this even as I wonder if it should be so much work. I remind myself that we don't have the nre that would normally help people ease into a new relationship without fear, and that what we DO have works really well when it's working.

Edit (additional thought): It may be worth mentioning that Davis and his roommate Blaine have been having serious issues. Blaine is an immature, non-chore-doing ass, is what it comes down to, and I know him well enough that this is not even me choosing sides -- others who know him have also strongly affirmed that he's the one with the problem here. Davis can be abrasive, but I shudder to think of having to live with Blaine, now that I know just what it would be like. They live in a small apartment and neither is able to move out at the moment so things are sort of smooth on the surface, but very tense underneath. Davis has said that this is making everything more stressful and that he's not in top form because of that. So maybe I should cut him some slack. But there was the depression and now there's the roommate thing, so, well... when do I get to be with the "real" him, not the him who's down because of some issue? Or will there *always* be an issue or two or three?
 
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But there was the depression and now there's the roommate thing, so, well... when do I get to be with the "real" him, not the him who's down because of some issue? Or will there *always* be an issue or two or three?

It's likely. We all have issues. My biggest number one issue atm is that I have been unable to re-organize my work space, which is mentally holding me back from working on my thesis. It gets me really down sometimes. Not wanting to trivialize actual depression, but once I get my act together and clean that space and manage to start on the thesis, I'll still be having money issues. Which in turn stress me out etc.

Are you sure there is a real Davis under the issues, or maybe the issues are part of who he is?
 
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