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  #31  
Old 08-10-2018, 02:10 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
... Less complicated and it might be a nice break. Sometimes when one has a demanding brain job, kink is VERY appealing because you get to surrender and SOMEBODY ELSE does all the thinking. That can feel refreshing...
This.

I don't consider myself "kinky" really. (Despite the fact that I am poly and like group sex). My line is "it's not kinky if I do it".

BUT the only draw that BDSM holds for me is that I DO NOT want to have to make decisions unless the are "important" - at work I make really important decisions all day long. At home I make all of the financial and future planning decisions. Those are ALL of the decisions that I am willing to make.

dinner? sex positions? home decor? shopping? vacations? - Don't. Fucking. Care. I am sure there are options that I would prefer. If you know what they are, then it is nice if you incorporate them into your planning. But I would seriously rather eat/do/own nothing than have to make another Fucking Decision today.
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JaneQ(Me): poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" V-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (25+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (7+ yrs) and MrS's BFF
SLeW: platonic hetero girlfriend and BFF
MrClean: hetero mono male, almost ex-lover-friend, ex-FWBs to SLeW, friends with MrS; live-in with Katniss
+ "others" = FBs, FWBs, lover-friends, platonic G/BFs, boytoys, etc.


My poly blogs here:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe
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  #32  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:53 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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"You can make the argument that I chose to be in the profession that I am (I did), but they also chose to be in a relationship with someone in that profession, and they benefit in that they have absolutely NO responsibilities other than supporting me emotionally and mentally, while I support them physically and financially."

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Originally Posted by Arius View Post
I didn’t choose to be in a relationship with a social worker. She BECAME a social worker after we’d been dating for about three years...
To be honest, I saw that response coming..and had a response typed up but thought that it added volume without much input.

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Originally Posted by Arius View Post
And to be clear, I would NEVER date a social worker again.
Which then begs the question...why are you dating one now?
__________________
JaneQ(Me): poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" V-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (25+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (7+ yrs) and MrS's BFF
SLeW: platonic hetero girlfriend and BFF
MrClean: hetero mono male, almost ex-lover-friend, ex-FWBs to SLeW, friends with MrS; live-in with Katniss
+ "others" = FBs, FWBs, lover-friends, platonic G/BFs, boytoys, etc.


My poly blogs here:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe
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  #33  
Old 08-10-2018, 12:24 PM
Arius Arius is offline
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I want to thank you all for helping me through this. I believe every participant in this conversation gave me something good to chew on, and I've grown a lot through this dialogue.

It's been an emotionally intense few days, and I'm physically exhausted. I don't even have capacity to catch up on the latest comments on here right now.

So I'm going to rest, maybe for a few days, and come back when I'm ready.

Arius
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  #34  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:19 PM
Arius Arius is offline
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Over the past week, I've come to realize that a major issue at the heart of this recent conflict with my partner is the fact that I tend to get very emotional about how and with whom my partner chooses to share her body, and to perceive certain of her choices as a personal attack. My expression of these thoughts and feelings then constitutes manipulation and reinforces oppressive gender dynamics. I don't want to do this any more, but I struggle to know where to begin.

Does anybody know how to detach from strong harmful emotions? I'm speaking of an Eastern philosophical concept here - freedom from desire. I want to work on this, but I don't know where to begin. It also concerns me that I feel like I need to achieve enlightenment in order to make this relationship work. Is there some other way?

I've committed myself to having faith in her love for me. I think that will go a long way towards lessening the intensity of my reactions, because I think the reactions ultimately stem from my paranoid belief that her behaviour is evidence that she secretly doesn't love me.

However, I'm still having trouble reconciling a few things:

If she loves me, why would she so consistently behave in a way that indicates that she doesn't care about my pleasure and/or my feelings? I can sort of short-circuit the downward spiral by having faith in her love and practicing gratitude, but it keeps coming up again and again because my brain needs an answer to the puzzle. I don't understand her behaviour, because it's so far removed from how I behave, and my brain won't leave it alone until it makes sense.

Here's a less emotionally-loaded example: suppose you really love parties. (Bit of a weird example for an introvert to pick, but I'm going with it.)

One day you hear through the grapevine that your best friend is hosting a huge party. Literally everyone you both know is invited - except you. You know that your friend knows that you love parties, yet you were not invited. I mean, it would be totally cool if they weren't into parties and weren't having a party and NO ONE got invited... but they clearly are into parties, so why are you being excluded? It feels a bit icky to confront your best friend, but you decide to do it anyway because it's really bothering you.

"Hey, I heard you are having a party this weekend... I'm just wondering why I wasn't invited."

To which your best friend responds "My party, my choice" and then refuses to provide a reason and gets mad at you for being so presumptuous as to invite yourself.

Now, for sure that WAS presumptuous of you, which is why it felt icky to ask. But wouldn't you (or any reasonable person) want to know why you weren't invited to your best friend's party? Wouldn't you also doubt whether this person was really your friend - even if they said, "I'm your best friend" every once in a while? I mean, if you had a party, you would for sure invite them - isn't that what friends do?

I think part of the issue is that for her, love, intimacy, and sex are separate things. For me, they are welded together, in the same way that when you're friends with someone, you invite them to your party. And I still absolutely cannot understand how they could be separate. I don't want to discard the relationship because of this difference - I want to work on it, to solve it and move forward. But it just makes no sense to me.

Maybe I can accept that it doesn't make sense. But I really don't think I'm going to relax and let go until I understand it. I'll just perpetually be working to prevent myself from freaking out about it.
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  #35  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:31 PM
Arius Arius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC43 View Post
(Feeling like I don't have a choice about a sex act is usually a trigger or at least brings me close to the breaking point.)
Kevin, I truly appreciate what you wrote and shared.

The sentence I quoted really brought it home for me. I often don't think of the ways in which her history of sexual trauma might be influencing her choices and the way she relates to me. I just forget. It should have occurred to me, but didn't, that the things I said and the way I was interacting with her might have actually badly triggered her and probably explains most or all of the anger I received when I was expecting compassion.

I think I do understand why sex isn't intimate for her. But I still just don't have any idea what it would be like to think that way, or what kind of choices a person would make under those circumstances. It's an alien perspective to me. (That doesn't make it abnormal or wrong, and I am sorry for pathologizing it - though I do prefer my approach.) Does that make sense?

Last edited by Arius; 08-11-2018 at 10:34 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:57 PM
Arius Arius is offline
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Originally Posted by FallenAngelina View Post
You are hyper focused on HER behavior, when HER behavior will never soothe you enough to move through this pervasive fear. She could never stand on her head, understanding you enough or doing sex in any position enough to erase the entrenched story you've got going on about your terror of her leaving you.


Seeking validation here means dependence on this one troublesome person for your emotional security. You need her like your life depends on it. Why? You're hyper focused on this one withholding person for your emotional safety. Why? Where did that come from? What are you trying to show yourself? What might you be struggling to heal?
Karen - I appreciate you offering me your definition of validation, which is quite different from the one I was operating with. I mostly ignored River's question because of that misinterpretation of her meaning.

So the person, the answer to River's question, is my alcoholic, borderline mother. (This isn't a new revelation for me, which is another reason I mostly ignored River's question - although I do think it is definitely worth reflecting on some of the other questions that follow from it, and I'm glad you drew attention to them.)

Basically, I think I learned how to love people from a toxic, clingy, person. Actually, if I think about it, it seems like I tend to bounce back and forth between Mom Mode (clingy, overly dependent, needy) and Dad Mode (cold, detached, uncaring, unfeeling).

I do not subscribe to the Freudian idea that this is my subconscious trying to resolve a conflict or achieve a useful goal. I believe it is simply learned behaviour.

So the question for me is - what does healthy behaviour look like? How can I change? Who can I model myself after? The problem is that I don't know. I've been trying to think of who I can learn from, and nobody comes to mind. A big part of the reason I'm on this forum is that it helps me a lot to have the perspectives of people who didn't have alcoholic parents with BPD - people who know how to love like a healthy, normal person. Because I never learned that, and there's no amount of inner probing that is going to teach it to me - the information I need is not inside of me.

Again, I do think having faith in her love even when my brain is analyzing her behaviour and screaming "she secretly hates you!" is one big thing I can do.

Any other ideas? Books you'd recommend?
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  #37  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:03 PM
Arius Arius is offline
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Originally Posted by River View Post
What I hear you saying is that you're yearning for more empathy and compassion--and understanding--from her. Is this right?

...Eventually I came to see and frame it all very differently. I came to understand that I can attune to / with myself in exactly the way I needed / wanted to be attuned with with others. In other words, I could meet my own needs, fears, wants, etc., with tenderness, compassion, understanding and some kind of inner rapport. But this takes a lot of practice over time to achieve if one has been deeply wounded by abandonment early in life, as I had been...

And this is where the tough, crucial stuff happens. You see, when we are not attuned to as we need when we are infants or children ... guess what we tend to learn to do? (And this really sucks!!) We learned to abandon ourselves.

What's more, we generally have no idea that we have built up a habit of self-abandonment. It dwells in the shadows -- where it is hidden in order to keep us from feeling the pain we didn't know how to be with back then. It dissociates, in other words. It fragments away from our conscious living.

The process and practice of self-compassion, self-kindness, self-nurturing, self-rapport, self-attunement is, partly, the process of turning toward the original wound rather than abandoning ourselves every time that wound (buried pain) gets triggered. Like any skill, one begins with little bits. You don't have to do it all all at once. But little by little you learn the skill of not abandoning yourself (your own hurt and pain -- your needs, your expressiveness, etc., whatever you're abandoning). And the more you can do this with yourself the more you can and will be doing it with others. It is a beautiful dance that awaits -- a dance of sharing weight, of being truly together with others while also being with and as yourself.
This was amazing, River. Thank you for sharing.

I read this and reflected and realize that I absolutely DO abandon myself, and that the self-abandonment is so much worse than anybody else abandoning me or not providing me with the compassion I need, etc. This gives me another useful thing to work on.
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  #38  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:09 PM
Arius Arius is offline
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Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post

Does every sex worker feel intimately involved with every client they service? That would be exhausting!
I have a very close friend who worked for a couple years as a sex worker. She left the job completely alienated from her body to the point where she was unable to achieve orgasm. Now, there are other contributing factors to this, so I'm not saying it was just the intimacy thing. She was beaten and brutally sexually assaulted multiple times, ie. But she also firmly believes that treating sex as a detached, clinical, act damaged her spirit and disconnected her from her body and her feelings. Which is exactly what I would expect to happen if there was something inherently intimate about it.
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  #39  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:45 PM
ref2018 ref2018 is offline
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Originally Posted by Arius View Post
Kevin, I truly appreciate what you wrote and shared.

Hi, KC43 is not Kevin, Kevin is KDT. KC is a woman.
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  #40  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:56 PM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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The party analogy - I can think of several reasons why you wouldn't be invited, but less reasons why she couldn't tell you why (in the party analogy only)...

So, maybe they know that you like parties, they DO really like you as a friend, but they do NOT like the way that you behave at parties (you get drunk, you hit on their mother, you start fights) - they don't want to get into a whole giant discussion about why they don't appreciate what kind of party-goer you are and so their options are a.) never throw a party, ever, so they don't have to address this OR b.) throw a party and not invite you.

They COULD c.) throw a party, not invite you...and explain to you WHY but then...1.) you will get all defensive, and they will have to spend a lot of time and effort trying to defend their decision without losing you as a valued friend when they have a big party to plan, and 2.) when you promise that you won't do all the things that you generally do when you go to a party (which is why you love them) they can either a.) still refuse, because you have told them that before and haven't behaved OR b.) relent and let you come, and be disappointed/embarrassed because you ONCE AGAIN did all of the things that made them not want to invite you in the first place (because, in your mind, they are "not that bad" and are what parties are for anyway.)

ADDENDUM: River found this post "far worse than useless", fine. I am not saying that Arius IS the drunken asshole party-goer in the party analogy. The point that I was trying to make is that there are other factors at play, that we know nothing about, that can contribute to another person's responses. We have Arius's viewpoint only, so he is the protagonist of our story. But the other people involved may have personal perspectives that make their choices and responses more understandable. Goodnight.
__________________
JaneQ(Me): poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" V-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (25+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (7+ yrs) and MrS's BFF
SLeW: platonic hetero girlfriend and BFF
MrClean: hetero mono male, almost ex-lover-friend, ex-FWBs to SLeW, friends with MrS; live-in with Katniss
+ "others" = FBs, FWBs, lover-friends, platonic G/BFs, boytoys, etc.


My poly blogs here:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 08-12-2018 at 03:23 AM.
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