how soon should you meet your lover's girlfriend?

Well I have been tested for a variety of diseases, and I am totally clean. And I also don't think giving this information in person is necessary. Forwarding the email from the doctor would suffice here I would say.

I would really like to understand in depth why the need to meet before sex is so important. Especially if you trust your partner....I would very much like some input here other than 'that's just the way it is'
 
I would very much like some input here other than 'that's just the way it is'
:confused: You already got two answers from km34, which gave you the basis for her reasoning and definitely were NOT saying "that's the way it is." Apparently, the reasons given are not good enough reasons to you. I have a feeling that you will object to any reason, because it seems you just don't like the idea.
 
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OK I admit my last remark was a bit provocative...I understand this is a sensitive issue.

I just feel that if the health issue is resolved, and Noone is looking to steal anyone away, does it really matter if you meet before or after sex? That was my question.....
 
I can see where you are coming from.

I just saw the newer posts as I was typing this, so I'll actually shuffle this around a bit.

Actually, why it's important to some couples for them to meet play partners before sex happens is only an issue if you are genuinely wanting to change your viewpoint, learn and grow so that you can become more flexible about meeting a date's partner in the future.

If you are looking to expand your viewpoint, that's great.

Here we go - it's important for a variety of reasons, some of which have been covered. It's not always about fear. Sometimes partners are just nosy. Sometimes they don't get out much and want to socialise. Most often, they just want to know that this person entering their orbit is a good egg.

It doesn't actually matter if, for example, you date a guy and never meet his wife - you're still entering her orbit. You're going to have some sort of effect. Whether your sex life with him sucks and his wife reaps the rewards of that, whether your sex life with him rocks and she suffers for a few weeks, whether he sends you a text whilst they are at dinner.... in some small or large way, your existence is going to effect this other person.

From a more human perspective, let's say someone does feel a little threatened. Let's say that they want to meet you to dissolve that fear. What's wrong with that? That's a great thing. They are promoting the longterm happiness of you, themselves and their partner. That's something I'd encourage, not be hesitant about.

And incidentally... yes... meeting someone can definitely remove fear. Instead of being this scary object, you are suddenly a real, talking, living person. If you're a good, kind, compassionate, understanding person, that will help even more.

As for what I was originally writing...

I am just speaking for myself here.

If I date a person who is already in a relationship, I do not consider them single. I consider them '+ baggage'. Their '+baggage' is that they have another very significant other to consider. If I'm getting involved, I have to consider them too. If I don't like that, well, I can go and find myself a single woman. If I want to be the top priority, I'm not going to get what I want if that person believes in hierarchical poly (primary/secondary).

You can look at meeting a person's partner two ways:
1. You're meeting because you all want this to go further, to get the 'green light'
2. You're meeting because meeting the partner is a prerequisite before the real dating stage - regardless of whether you know how well things are going to go

For me, I always take it the second viewpoint. If I choose to date a married woman and their husband wants to come along on the first date (this has actually happened), I make a decision on what I'm comfortable with.

Incidentally, I'm 100% fine with that - because to me, she's not single. She's +baggage. They have their own relationship setup and I'm the one coming into that relationship. Whatever makes them happy, makes me happy. Essentially, let's put it bluntly - I want to bang his wife, I want to make sure he's ok about that. That's just good manners! It doesn't matter if he wants to meet me because he's threatened, nosy, extremely social, doesn't get out much. The reason doesn't matter - it's their relationship guideline and it's my choice whether or not I can mesh with that.

Even if the reason was fear, I'm not going to judge that. I feel compassion for the partner of any woman I might date. I want to help settle their fear, if they have it. Fear is human. Whatever they need in order for that to happen, I'll do. As long as I'm happy too.

Now, to me, that's not about the primary couple making all the rules. It's about the primary couple having a relationship that works for them and trying to find people who are compatible with that system.

So... if you know that you do not like to meet someone's partner quickly, that is your own personal relationship expectation. But just as you would not want to be pressured into meeting quickly, it's not fair of you to expect their relationship setup to stretch uncomfortably. Compromise is a beautiful thing - but when you can't compromise, you're just not compatible. It's just the way of the world.

Ultimately, you have a few options here:

1. Stop dating men whose partners want to meet you quickly.
2. Start only dating single men or men with no primary partner.
3. See if you can become more comfortable with meeting quickly, by taking a different viewpoint.
4. Keep dating men whose partners want to meet you quickly and hope for a happy compromise.
5. Consider swinging, or some kind of casual sex group kind of dating, since polyamory usually has more emotions/guidelines/hierarchy

To me, poly guidelines are no different to any dating guidelines. It's all about compatibility. We all have relationship expectations; some we can budge on and some we can't.
 
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I think it really is a personal thing, up to the people involved. How does someone feel the "health issue" is "resolved?" How does someone feel confident no one is trying to steal anyone away? For some people it could all be done via email, even though emails can be manipulated and tampered with very easily. For others, it must be in person or it feels discourteous. There is a lot to be said for having a willingness to interact in person with an SO's primary partner.

For some poly folks, another person having sex with their spouse or partner is a sort of privilege that must be "earned" somehow, and that could simply be done by meeting them first. All that being said, many poly people have very loose arrangements. Not everyone feels a meeting must happen before sex. I'd only had an exchange of two emails with Burnsy's wife before having sex with him, and he and I had been communicating for months before that even happened. None of us really felt any urgency for me to meet her, it was all very relaxed.

If everyone is clear about what their own personal boundaries are, then one would know what they'd be willing to do to work with others' boundaries. No one HAS TO accept someone else's rules or boundaries without asking for an adjustment that would make it work better within their own. It's all customizable!
 
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Thanks a lot for all of your valuable input. It is greatly appreciated and interesting for a newbie like me :)

Now I am off to meet with 'the significant other' :)
 
From my very limited experiences...

I met Marty's wife the very first time he and I saw each other in person. And he met my husband at the same gathering. It was important to me, as a poly-newbie, to make sure via direct contact that his wife was okay with us dating, and to give Marty the opportunity to see that my husband was okay with it. The whole "trust, but verify" thing.

On the flip side, my husband had a relationship for a couple months this year that he hid from me, and since the other woman did not have a "oh, I should meet his wife to make sure things are on the up and up", when I did find out about it, the poop hit the fan. He had told her things were okay, so she had no idea I was in the dark.

Just my thoughts. I'm not saying anyone in your situation is dishonest, but I am a huge fan of the brief face to face to get direct confirmation from the metamour that things are truly okay with them/they are in the loop/etc. And I'm not talking just about intercourse/other physical things. I'm talking about any relationship - casual dating, casual sex, serious dating, whatever it is. I would much rather have a brief awkward conversation than find out months later the other partner is not actually cool with it.
 
Ok I think it is important that the primary couple has rules, and that should be respected.

However, I can't help but wonder why exactly it is so important that everyone meets before anything sexual happens. If you trust your partner why not let him or her have sex and get to know this new person more fully? Will meeting before anything sexual happens really take away the fears you have?

Or am I totally missing the point here?
There's no fear-it's drama. We have kids. If someone is wanting to be a part of my life, GG's life or Maca's life in any significant way, they are goign to be a aprt of all of our lives-because of our lifestyle and responsibilities to the kids.
I did things VERY differently when I was single and if I had no kids at home-that would mean a lot more freedom too.
But, every girl who was nervous about meeting me-has been a cowgirl who wanted to "win Maca over". Whilst neither he or I have concerns of him GOING anywhere-the headaches from their harassment when they figured out that wasn't going to happen, hurt our kids and was destructive for even my boyfriend.

We don't all live in a vacuum. Our choices and our partners affect everyone in the family. So we want to ensure that they understand the ramifications. Furthermore, if someone wants to only see one of us-without contact with the rest of us, then they're only going to get to see us once or twice a month. Not because of rules, it's because of our schedules and having two kids at home. Maca and GG work opposite schedules and I'm in school. So when one of us is free, no one else is free to keep the kids-except for our family times.
BUT if someone was willing to meet the family and was able to socialize with the family, they could see their lover every day that they were available.

Thus far, people are wanting more than just 1-2 visits a week. But, if they won't meet me, they aren't socializing with our kids. Likewise, if they won't meet Maca or GG, they aren't socializing with our kids.

That said, there is no requirement that they hang out with ME all of the time in order to see Maca (or vice versa). But, they do have to be willing to acknowledge and accept the family, and the responsibilities that go with it.

FOr example, if Maca has a date, but GG gets called into work and I'm at school-he's going to have to cancel if they have refused to meet us. But, if they are already accepted with the family, they could just re-plan their date for something kid friendly and still be able to see one another.

If the person refuses to meet the spouse by that point, then chances are he/she isn't going to want to put up with the other things that come along with being in a relationship with one of us so it's an easy way to weed out people who really are in it for a sexual reason instead of a loving one. It doesn't have anything to do with trust or fear, it's just a step that needs to be taken at some point and before sex happens seems to be a good time for it.
Great short summary.
 
Nyc-
yes, this is why I struggled in my other thread with wording.
Maca's 2 year long "girlfriend" was much like this. They were casual in the sense that there was never a chance for integration into the family and they met up for sex infrequently.
But, they were 'tight' in terms of emotional, intellectual and spiritual connection.

Of course we met her together (that was circumstantial) and she was awesome. She actually hosted my last birthday party.

But, she was also not at all concerned about meeting the family and when things came up and he couldn't meet up with her alone for whatever reason-she would ask if we could all meet anyway. So she knew the kids and myself and GG and I would say she was a friend-even though I only saw her every few months or so.

I do understand what you mean about that difference. It's just hard to define it by terminology.

At any rate, one of the reasons it worked for so long with her (she moved out of state by the way)- is because she also had a family of her own and so she totally understood the importance of keeping her kid safe from predatory people, ensuring that lovers were accepting that they would never be MORE important than the child and that getting along with and respecting family responsibilities was critical to being able to have that loving relationship-even as casual as it was.

:)

It really is very different if the people in question don't share households and child responsibilities.

It's hard for some people who don't have those responsibilities to understand that for those of us who have them can't simply drop them and run on a whim.
So we have more freedom to interact frequently if the person does take time to meet the rest of the family and build at least a friendly relationship (not necessarily FRIENDS, but friendly).
 
If a woman isn't ready to deal with meeting me in person, so be it, but that means I'm not ready to deal with the reality of her health potentially affecting mine.

This goes both ways as well. My husband (SO FAR) has tested negative for herpes. Therefore, all he has to tell a new prospective is that he is clean (cause he is).
BUT I have herpes and we do NOT use protection.

I am very open about this information.
However, due to privacy rights, it's MY right to tell, not anyone else's.

Now, because of the person I am, I ensure that both Maca and GG know they may share that trivia with anyone.


BUT-our boundaries are specific that they are not allowed to share with me, personal info of their other lovers without their other lovers permission AND

they are not allowed to share MY personal information with other lovers with out my permission.

SOOOOOO-
if I was dating someone new-I would WANT to meet their other partners and would want them to meet mine for ALL of our piece of mind.


Using a condom DOES NOT remove the risk of getting herpes (or most other STD's). It REDUCES the risk of the fluid being shared, but herpes are shared through skin contact not only fluid.

Furthermore, if you don't meet their partner-how do you know they are being honest and upfront?

In fact, Maca lied by omission about a lot of things with the new girl he was dating-because he was "putting his best food forward" the same way he was taught in the mono world.FIguring his "bad habits" could be addressed after they had a relationship.
SHE believed him unconditionally.
She got hurt.

Had she met me, talked to me and considered the difference in the stories-she and I would have found out before she got her heartbroken.
And I should note-they only kissed and had light touching over clothing.
But, 6 months of online communication-followed by a couple months of coffee dates on Sundays and a few dinners. She met me after that twice-and everything crumbled because she trusted him implicitly-but the information she had was faulty.

He accepted her lifestyle-she presumed that meant he was ok living it (which is quite certainly is not) and she got pissy with me assuming that the boundaries we have were for my benefit (when they were for his). She found out that hard way, something she could have avoided if she'd taken time to get to know us both because she would have seen him around me and how he acts around me as well as how he acts around my boyfriend which was the REAL signal of his possessiveness, clinginess and insecurities-which she never saw when she saw him alone-because there was nothing for him to be possessive, clingy or insecure about-it was only the two of them.
She sure noticed fast that anytime ANYONE else was there, he was a "totally different person". But that person wasn't someone she wanted to date-it was the REAL him.

When anyone-even in the mono world-chooses to date someone in a vacuum, without meeting the most important people in their life-they get a misconstrued image of who that person is. Which is fine if they intend to ONLY EVER be with that person alone. But, if they want to become a part of their real life-they may find out that who someone is alone, when they can be anyone they want, is often not who they are in the face of their real life responsibilities and family/friend relationships.
 
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Rules

Rules are not unique to polyamory. The exact same instincts of control and ownership which are involved in monogamy are carried over into our polyamorous relationships. All of these requirements of when people have to meet, how much they are allowed to share before hand, how "close" they are allowed to become before taking certain steps, are simply methods of control. We are trying to control the actions of our partners and their partners through fear that, if we don't we will be harmed.

This is exactly the same mindset behind requiring exclusivity (sexual and emotional) in a monogamous relationship. The demands that we are making are simply altered to include more lovers. I say "we", but what I mean is the community, of which I am not certain I am comfortable calling myself a part of. These rules creep me out - it all just sounds like marriage. I'm trying to understand but the more explanations I hear the less I like it lol

It's a health thing. I want to know whose cooties I'm being exposed to, because it doesn't matter how many precautions are taken, there is still risk in sharing a sexual partner with another person... If a woman isn't ready to deal with meeting me in person, so be it, but that means I'm not ready to deal with the reality of her health potentially affecting mine.

Thanks for your explanation km, I do have one followup question though.

How does meeting this person ease your concerns of contracting STDs from them? In meeting them do you find that you get a "vibe" that their genitals are free from complication? Do you examine them on the dinner table?

Personally I'd be satisfied by seeing their test results (if only in email, as someone else suggested).
 
I just feel that if the health issue is resolved, and Noone is looking to steal anyone away, does it really matter if you meet before or after sex? That was my question.....

Katie-
for the sake of looking at it from the other shoe, assuming its done your way-

how do you know the health issue is resolved?
How do YOU know you can trust this person?
How does the woman (who hasn't met you at all) know that you aren't planning to try to steal someone away?


(NO SARCASM AT ALL)

I ask these questions because I've actually been on both sides of the coin, well all three. I've been the extra person wanting to date someone who was part of a couple, I've been the partner with someone wanting to date me and I've been the wife at home whose partner had someone wanting to date them.

In every case, it's been clear that the best way to know for sure that all parties needs are being addressed, is for all parties to meet.

I've done it without meeting-and always someones needs failed to be met and ALMOST EVERY TIME-it was the person in your shoes who got screwed over the worst. Because, they had the most to lose.

It's not for my personal benefit that I insist on meeting. It's for EVERYONE's benefit.

It's impossible to know that the wife is going to respect your needs, and your importance if you haven't met her. Even if her husband says he will ensure it-there are enough nightmare stories on here to show that isn't POSSIBLE.

The only way to be sure that every persons voice is considreed and they all get a chance to express their needs/desires for their relationship, is for all who have power over it to meet.

The truth is-that because I am the mother of his children, if you were dating my husband I have power over that relationship. Not that I WANT to control it-but if I call him and say "our kids in the ambulance"-he's leaving your date-even if you are butt naked and mid stroke.
HE knows I would never call unless it were that serious-but you don't know that unless we've met and talked.
As the stay at home mom-I have the power to schedule every doctor appointment, dental appointment, after school activity etc for the kids-and him. If I wanted to be a bitch, I can schedule them in such a way that you never get to see him. Again, not that I would (never have) but YOU wouldn't know that if you haven't met me.

Unless you meet me, you can't ensure that I don't get to hear all of the details of every personal thing you tell him. He might say that's the case-but you can't have any real sense of confidence in that-if you haven't met us. Because you have no clue what kind of control I may weild over him.

Many a person goes away from their "jailer" and acts as though they are dominant of their life and can do what they wish-only to return to an abusive relationship where their partner controls everything.

It would be great if this weren't so-but it is so and it is so in the poly community as it is everywhere else.

Every woman whose met my husband has fallen for his gentlemanly ways and his sex appeal. It takes a long time for him to REALLY open up-but they want to jump in bed within a month or so usually. They THINK they know him. But, they don't know him at all. They don't realize that if his daughter calls his cell-he's going to ignore them for as long as she wants to talk. (because I try not to let her do it-but if she's with someone else while hes on a date-she will). They don't know that she's possessive and pissy and he caters to her whim-so if she throws a fit over him not being home-cause he was out with them, he won't go next time.
They dont know that he has a double standard in terms of what he is ok with and what he's not.

The bottomline is-they don't rEALLY know him. I've known him 24 years and only in the last 2 have I gotten to know the REAL Maca. We've been living together for 14.

A woman who says, "hey I think i"m intersted in dating your husband, can we talk" is the smartest woman on earth. Cause she just opened the door to really knowing who he is, what she can do to minimize the chances of getting her heart broken and maximize her relationship with him.

I'm a friendly-non-possessive spouse. But, she will NEVER get privileges she isn't willing to stand up and request-and HE WON'T ask for them because he doesn't want to give them to my boyfriend.

SO-if she waits for him to ask, she'll wait till hell freezes over, cause he doesn't want me to have overnights with my boyfriend. He doesn't want us going out on a date more than once a week. He doesn't want us showing affection in front of him.
So-he can't do those thing with her.
BUT
if SHE asks me-she will find out that I'm TOTALLY OK with those things because I understand the importance of having their own relationship and freedom to build it etc.

So, while it's perfectly ok to say you aren't going to meet someone else. It might also mean minimizing your own personal benefits.

Shrug-makes no difference to me in the long run.
But, it can make a huge difference to the lover.
As seen by the difference in how things went for E versus B.
E met me, talked to me, asked me things that could help her be a better lover for him-and I shared freely and they had a great 2.5 year run before she moved away.
B didn't-she wanted to believe she could learn it all on her own which resulted in her being heartbroken and devastated within a few weeks of their first face to face meeting. Ironically over something that could have EASILY been avoided.
 
Marcus-

I think part of the issue you hit the nail on the head.
In some cases of poly-you ARE dealing with marriage.

FOr me-it's not the sharing of my spouse sexually or otherwise that is an issue. It's the responsibilities of our family-which I've seen others misinterpret and be hurt by that are an issue.

If someone is ok with being nothing more than a casual sex partner (opposed to a casual partner as described by nycindie), they don't have to meet me.
But, they do have to understand that their date time is far and few between and that it could be cancelled or interrupted without notice.
NOT BY ME per se (not my habit)-by obligation to kids, finances etc.

But, if they want the freedom to see one of us regularly without the concern of sudden cancellations, they gotta meet the family and they gotta be a good fit with the family socially (not meaning good fit to JOIN the family necessarily, just comfortable socializing with the kids and the rest of us) cause things DO come up when you enmesh the lives of 3 adults with 4-5 kids and a grandson.

As for the STD's-i'm ok with a copy of the doctors note-in terms of MY safety. But, personally, I'd like to tell them myself (via email or text is fine) the risks they have FROM me.
How do THEY know that they are safe just because they get a letter saying my husband is clean? He could catch herpes from me at any time.
 
Respecting Commitments

But, they do have to understand that their date time is far and few between and that it could be cancelled or interrupted without notice.
NOT BY ME per se (not my habit)-by obligation to kids, finances etc.

Life is full of responsibilities, things which we need to take care of, and unfortunately sometimes these things just pop up. Adults understand this, when our plans have to get canned we are disappointed and then move on with what we have to do. Granted, if one is so inclined one can take care to respect the time of others and only interfere with their plans in the case of an emergency or events which are inflexible (beyond our control).

I'm curious to know how dates with someone who doesn't care to meet you runs an apparently serious risk of being infrequent and interrupted but someone who HAS met you is miraculously safer from such dangers. Did I read that right? What happens to the ability to schedule around a date with someone who has met you over someone who hasn't?
 
Because if they've met us-they could re-schedule the date to include the kids. (the most common issue is the kids-cause we adults are all on opposite schedules).

However, after the drama that has ensued with several potentials and the kids-we all agreed that its best for the kids not to be subjected to potentials before all 3 parents have a chance to meet them and assess the viability and safety of the kids.

The only other real risk is medical issues-I have several (not std related) serious medical issues. Had 4 serious surgeries in 2010, 2 of which resulted in me being on bed rest for 8 weeks-with small children at home. Complete bed rest-which took me out of the picture regarding childcare, completely.

These issues are USUALLY not an issue. But, when they flare up-it's emergency visits and usually several weeks of full-time care needed round the clock. GG and Maca take turns-but it kills their free time elsewhere.

In the case of 2010, which was definitely the worst year; Maca's gf knew me, knew the situation and was able to reconfigure things so she could come meet up with him or stop by his work-but their romantic options were nil. But, she knew and understood the whole situation-so she knew it wasn't me being a bitch or him being neglectful.

However, MY MEDICAL ISSUES ARE NOT HIS PLACE TO DISCUSS with another party. Period. He can tell them he's unavailable there's been a medical emergency-but more than that would be overstepping the bounds of my privacy rights.

So, had she chosen to have no contact with me-she would have been left wondering wtf-for MONTHS.

Which is part of what happened this winter. In February, a month after the new girl hit the scene in person, I had a severe medical situation which resulted in round the clock care til mid-march.
She assumed it was just me being a bitch and making shit up so that Maca couldn't meet with her. All hell broke loose between them.

IF SHE KNEW ME-she'd know A) I'm not that kind of person & B) what the hell was going on with me, cause I could have called her my own self to tell her (like I did with the other lady-who actually visited me in the hospital).
But, because she choose to keep our lives segregated, she was left wondering.

It would be nice if adults all understood that things come up-but my experience is that isn't the case and in fact OFTEN "secondaries" (i loathe the term and purpose of the term) get screwed over BECAUSE they don't have anything to do with the rest of the group and so they get left out when a crisis erupts.

In a perfect situation, there would be no major, reoccurring health issues to interrupt and kids wouldn't be an issue either.
But, in reality, these things come up frequently.

The relationships that have lasted, in our life, are the ones who have integrated into the group of close friends and family. Because if I have a crisis-they want to be here helping too. If The kids need help, they want to be here too. So instead of being left out, they are involved and it actually helps cement their bond to whoever their lover is AND everyone else.

The ones who want total autonomy and segregation, end up feeling left out and left behind because they aren't part of the day to day happenings.

As I said, it was VERY different for me when I was an autonomous single gal who had multiple lovers and didn't live with any of them.

Then, it was much easier to keep the segregation and still have lots of time with lovers.

But, when you include kids and a full household of adults who are not autonomous renters, but all owners and all parents to the kids and all mutually responsible, there's more impact on metamours and it works better if they all get along well.
 
However, MY MEDICAL ISSUES ARE NOT HIS PLACE TO DISCUSS with another party. Period. He can tell them he's unavailable there's been a medical emergency-but more than that would be overstepping the bounds of my privacy rights.

So I am clear, if your husband has been dating a girl for a period of time, seems quite smitten with her, but she has (to date) not taken your family up on the offer of a meeting, he can't tell her you are ill if you become ill?

I understand being embarrassed about airing out your medical dirty laundry to the public. Would something like "My wife is quite ill and I need to see to her. I can't tell you how long it might be, but the last time this came up it was a month or so before she didn't require constant care. I will see you as frequently as I can but please understand that her health is currently my only priority" be too much?

Does the fact that he loves and trusts this (currently imaginary) girl entitle him to be somewhat honest with her?
 
So I am clear, if your husband has been dating a girl for a period of time, seems quite smitten with her, but she has (to date) not taken your family up on the offer of a meeting, he can't tell her you are ill if you become ill?

I understand being embarrassed about airing out your medical dirty laundry to the public. Would something like "My wife is quite ill and I need to see to her. I can't tell you how long it might be, but the last time this came up it was a month or so before she didn't require constant care. I will see you as frequently as I can but please understand that her health is currently my only priority" be too much?

Does the fact that he loves and trusts this (currently imaginary) girl entitle him to be somewhat honest with her?
Oh no no no no. It's not that he can't tell her there is a medical emergency or that it may be some time. Not at all.
It's more that he can't get into details of it with someone who is a stranger to me.
Along the lines of, if he wouldn't say it to his boss, he shouldn't say it to anyone else.

As for his trust of someone, honestly, no that doesn't make them trustworthy to me.
BECAUSE I happen to know that when he's thinking with his dick-he would trust them regardless of their actual trustworthiness.
I say I KNOW that-not only because I've witnessed it repeatedly (as noted in multiple old threads on here where he and I both posted) but also because he fully admits that he has a HUGE problem with NRE.

Just last night he was telling me he's really sorry and he really doesn't think he wants to try to date anymore because he simply can't manage his NRE. It takes over him.

So, no, their dating doesn't give me confidence in the viability of the relationship or my interest in them knowing my medical issues. (not including of course any STD's-those aren't optional in my mind-you MUST share that info).
 
mmmm, I should add,

"love this person" would be precisely one of those things I don't believe just cause they've been sexual for a couple months.

He's sexually enthralled. But love... well frankly, it comes slow to him. He would not admit to loving very many people in his life at all.
His kids, myself, his dad. He doesn't say it about his siblings or his mother.
He has admitted to "thinking he might" love one of the 4 women who've filtered through in the last 3 years.

He says "i feel a connection". But, if you ask him to describe-it's all about sexual chemistry.

He doesn't open up about himself personally to people. It takes YEARS for him to do that. Even to a level that most people commonly open up with coworkers.
He's very introverted in that sense and keeps his real self very private.

He's a flirt and he's attractive in a very... "everyone even the guys think he is" sort of way. He knows all the right words and he'll listen. So women enjoy his company, cause he will let them talk to their hearts content.
But, they can't tell you shit about HIM. They think they can-they will tell you that he's SO MUCH like they are, that he "gets" them, that they have the same ideas for a future, relationship styles etc. But, it's all a lie. What he does is agree with whatever they are saying as being ok-because, it is ok as long as its THEM and THEIR life. But, unless they directly ask him what he wants for his life (which I guess is VERY RARE), he won't offer it-and even then, he will usually shrug it off and change the topic back to them.

So, love... no. I don't believe he has loved any of these women. He has specifcially told me he can't identify if its possible to love them unless he has sex with them (which makes NO sense to me, I KNOW I love lots of people I haven't screwed) and his descriptions of what he likes about them have nothing to do with love.
 
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