Going to Pakistan

KerrBear

New member
I moved out with my kids and am going to be filing a divorce, ending eight years of marriage. With the cheating, the rape, the disrespect and now the manipulative behavior - I'm better off alone than to continue. And no amount of "counseling" is going to help me get over the fact that my husband rapes me in my sleep. And sure, he hasn't done it for three months, but so what? He promised me he would stop after I begged, cried, threatened and even attacked him and he always relapses. Eight years of that and you will never trust that person again.

He needs help. I've told him that. He told me I have to take him in to the ER get help in the middle of the night. I told him I'm not waking the kids up for him to sit in the ER. I would help, but he would have to wait till morning. He flips out, starts breaking things. Yells and threatens me. So I sit in the the ER all night and most of the day just for him to tell the doctor to ask ME what I wanted HIM in there for. He's not ready for help if he's not willing to accept he's got a problem. BTW, they gave him information to continue therapy. He has made no attempt to call them. Says he can "change on his own" I wake up violated. Yeah. He's sure changing. :mad:

He's not poly material. And really, I'm not so sure I'm poly at all. I wanted monogamy up until I met him. I was faithful to him until I caught him cheating and we became swingers. I hated swinging. I wanted love. Longed for it. I wasn't ready to say goodbye to my husband. Because I was weak? Because I didn't want to throw a marriage away? Who knows. But I'm stronger now. Finding real love from a respectful person and a culture that is so soooo different from American men.

I can say that I've grown very bitter towards westernized culture. I have had so many boyfriends and so many of them have betrayed, belittled and hurt me. My Pakistani boyfriend asks me, "Why is it so easy for American people to throw their relationships away? Their parents, their sibling, their lovers. It's just easy for you." He's right. We break up, reform, get over, start again and it's so common we don't even think twice about it usually. Maybe that's why I wanted my marriage to work. I didn't want to just throw it away, no matter how much hurt I was enduring. . .

I'm afraid I will fail my boyfriend only because an entire marriage of fucking whoever you wanted has tainted my good judgement. It's a bigger challenge for me to have the dicipline to say "no go" now that I've had so many green lights. Like drinking soda. Addictive. But just like soda, just as destructive to myself. It's also destructive to my relationship I have been building with God and my boyfriend. I know I can do it, I've done it before, and I know that I DON'T like what I feel after the frisky fun is over.

It's also been challenging to accept that this man wants to know ME and my thoughts and the sex part is only a side interest. That's so alien to me. I'm so use to it being the center point of my culture and relationships. Here is a man from a culture where it's no where near the centerpoint and is even hidden from their culture. Sure, those desires are there. But that's a rare side of him I get to see. Instead, it's hours and hours of talking about everything under the sun, watching movies together, listening to him sing (he sings better in Urdu than he does English. haha), practicing to speak his language. So many other joys and I realize how much more I'm in love with this man than I am to my husband who seems to have sex as his only thought. And not just with me, but for countless other women on this planet.

Wanna know the kicker? My husband has even had the nerve to tell me that he's allowed an open relationship because he felt like after I nearly died at 17 from a car accident, he didn't want to put any restrictions on me. Yet, he has always hated the idea of me having swinger relations without him being present and for having a true loving, poly relationship.

I want to change who I am. I need to heal a lot after this marriage. My boyfriend has helped me so much. Yes, we've had our battles too. It's been almost a year now and I know that there are more battles to come. They are getting easier though. Bridging a cultural and distance divide is NOT an easy challenge. But our love has only gotten stronger and it feels like he's right here. Really, the only time it feels like he isn't is when I need his embrace. <3
 
Whoa whoa whoa. It sounds to me like you need to simply move out of your house and have some alone time. Running off to Pakistan with your ldr boyfriend sounds flighty and sketchy at best and perhaps a little dangerous. Have you met your boyfriend? Has it been solely over text and phone?
 
After reading, all I have to say is where the kids stand in all this? From what you wrote it seems like they aren't even a consideration.
 
I see him pretty much every day. We skype more than we call each other on the phone. We text all day long. I've met his family. I've even seen members of his extended family and i know what they do for a living.

It's no more risky meeting him and his family than any other relationship you'd have here. Maybe even safer cause personally I trust their culture more than I would my own. And he's not letting anything happen to me while I'm visiting.

I'm also a writer and this is a great opportunity to write some human interest stories that will advance my career.

Not saying Pakistan doesn't have their risks. But few people know what that country is really like. They see an attack and think the whole country is in a state of flux like Syria. The US can be just as dangerious. Chicago is just as dangerous as Karachi, more so because I will be alone in that city. Ive never been there before. I'll be with him and his family while I'm in Karachi, which is the economic mecca of Pakistan and one of the largest cities of the world. My boyfriends family live in a good neighborhood as well.

I'm not afraid. The worst that might happen is robbery. Just don't carry anything of great value on you, stay in populated areas, stay by my guide. same rules you'd follow when you're traveling to any city or foreign country.

How many years do I need to wait before I've waited long enough to meet the person i think about all day long. Has helped me through so many dark clouds and we have connected intellectually on so many levels.

Do I need to heal? Yes and I've already moved out on my own and am dealing with that. But in a few months I'm going to be exploring to find myself, find God and physically touch my boyfriend after over a year of waiting.
 
After reading, all I have to say is where the kids stand in all this? From what you wrote it seems like they aren't even a consideration.

Why wouldn't they have been? They have gotten to know my boyfriend and talk to him every time i do if they aren't in school. They enjoy him. My oldest has even said he feels more connected to him than with my husband. That doesn't surprise me. My husband rarely interacts with the kids, even his own daughter. While my bf culture and beliefs are so family center. It's one of the many things I love about him, he's gonna be an amazing dad who loves his family to the center of his very being. Not just someone he has to take care of out of consequence.

While I'm visiting for a month, they will be with my mom. I'm leaving in the summer. They will enjoy the visit to the farm with their grandparents they don't get to see too often.
 
Be very, very careful. I've met two women, over the years in NYC, who had moved away to be with Muslim men in their own countries and the men turned out to be very different from who the women thought they were. Both women were basically treated like prisoners once they got there, not allowed to leave without sneaking away, and one had to fight for two years to get her kids back. It is very easy to pretend to be someone you are not over Skype. Other people can pose as family. If I were you and set on meeting him, I do it in a different country first, like England. And do a background check on him beforehand. Sorry but this is the way of the world these days.
 
I have to say, you sound incredibly naive. In Pakistan, it is possible that you would be stoned to death for being polyamorous. Women's rights are few and far betwee. You and your boyfriend would have to marry and then your children would become his property. This idealised version you have in your head of Pakistan just isn't the reality whatsoever. It's not fair for you to put your children in a situation where they have less rights and access to health care and education because you want your boyfriend close. That's not the choice a conscientious parent makes for their children.

This doesn't mean that Pakistan doesn't have some wonderful aspects, but it does mean that one should consider very carefully before commiting to living there. Especially women, sadly.

You need to grow up and get your head out of this fantasy world. I understand you have been through tough times but this simply is not the answer.
 
I will be divorced. I am NOT poly. I thought I was, but in reality -no. That was just me trying to figure out how to deal with a cheating, abusive husband without divorce. There is no way out of this BUT divorce.

Divorce is legal and happens in Pakistan every day. It is written in the Quran that divorce can happen and is not a sin to do so.

I am a journalist. I am far from naive. I have met several people from all over the world. Have heard and written their stories. Which is why I'm not afraid of going there. I understand the culture is different than our own, but it's not like their women are slaves. In many ways, I feel our own culture enslaves women. We aren't perfect and what we see as freedoms are hurting our own families. But that's another discussion, but I would urge you to do some serious research on Pakistan and Islam in particular before you say anything more on their rights for their people.

Many of these issues you're blindly seeing happens in rural areas where education is expensive and hard to obtain for anyone. If you have children and a limited income, do you pay to send your girls to school or your boys? They don't have a public schooling option like we do. You want your kids to be educated, you have to pay for it out of pocket. If you're a poor farmer that is barely affording the essentials, how do you pay to send your daughter to school? You would send your sons before your daughters because, just like our own culture, men are still the major earning figures in their culture. And, as we have witnessed right here in the States, it takes a very long time and a lot of fight to change that gap. WE still struggle with that gap.

"Females are educated equally like males in urban areas such as Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi. However, in rural areas, the education rate is substantially lower. This has begun to change with the issuance of government policy, by Imran Khan's PTI, in which 70% of new schools are built for girls,[7] and also plans to increase the size of women's school so that the infrastructure matches those of men's schools[8] and more female colleges have also been established in order to provide women with higher education [9]" (A simple google search brings up a lot of information about this nation you clearly know nothing about)

Just because you are married to a Muslim, doesn't mean you become his property. That's not how it works. Especially not in a well-to-do Pakistan family from Karachi who has a great deal of family living right here in the US. His father owns a shipping industry, his uncle is a government sponsored master of education, his second cousin in a well known journalist right here in the US.

How much about their culture have you researched? Aside from what you're seeing on Fox News? How much do you know about the Quran and Muslim people, aside from what you're being force fed on the TV?

Did you read my thread? I did say that my kids are staying in the States. Better access to healthcare, employment, school. It is a no brainer. Plus, they have their family here. My bf is coming to the US and there is NOTHING wrong and negative that can happen from that because he's a Pakistani Muslim, do you know how racists that sounds?

This is exactly what he and I talked about the other day. What kind of racism and hatred are we going to face a multi-racial, blended Muslim family? ... I know it's easy to say things to people you don't know anything about online, but people are still so rude in person as well. I have friends who are white American born and married to Muslim's in my neighboring city. They certainly have struggled with the racism and the jabs and the ingrain fear against Islam we have in this nation. It's a bit ironic when it comes from the mouths of people who are also struggling because of their sexual and relationship practices. Mine is brown and white with a religion most know nothing about. Yours has many lovers. Some Muslims also have this. Probably more in common than you think..

Although I appreciate the reply, I wasn't asking for your judgement. You have no place to "cast your stones" when you know little about who or what you're casting them at.

I have to say, you sound incredibly naive. In Pakistan, it is possible that you would be stoned to death for being polyamorous. Women's rights are few and far between. You and your boyfriend would have to marry and then your children would become his property. This idealised version you have in your head of Pakistan just isn't the reality whatsoever. It's not fair for you to put your children in a situation where they have less rights and access to health care and education because you want your boyfriend close. That's not the choice a conscientious parent makes for their children.

This doesn't mean that Pakistan doesn't have some wonderful aspects, but it does mean that one should consider very carefully before committing to living there. Especially women, sadly.

You need to grow up and get your head out of this fantasy world. I understand you have been through tough times but this simply is not the answer.
 
Be very, very careful. I've met two women, over the years in NYC, who had moved away to be with Muslim men in their own countries and the men turned out to be very different from who the women thought they were. Both women were basically treated like prisoners once they got there, not allowed to leave without sneaking away, and one had to fight for two years to get her kids back. It is very easy to pretend to be someone you are not over Skype. Other people can pose as family. If I were you and set on meeting him, I do it in a different country first, like England. And do a background check on him beforehand. Sorry but this is the way of the world these days.

There are assholes no matter what and no matter where. I've had a lot of relationships, always with white American men and none have turned out well. When you have tried and tried again and find no luck, maybe it's time to change the dial a little?

My bf and I have had our arguments, I know how he gets angry and I know how he reacts. He's just a person, just like any other person. The difference between him and the others is the amount of understand and respect we have for each other. Respect for me that I have never seen in a man here in the States. And like many American women, I am no different and have had SEVERAL boyfriends throughout the years.

I've met a lot of women here in Minnesota that are married to Muslim men. They are happy. Their husband's don't treat them wrongly. Sure, there are jerks, but honestly the problems that I do see arise happen because they are trying to mix religious practices- Christian woman and Muslim man. That certainly causes problems. I follow no religion. I was not raised a Christian, though I believe in God. I am ready and willing to learn about Islam. So that problem is not going to be a problem for us. . . Bacon though.. Well, that may be a problem.

It would be hard to keep posing as someone else for an entire year for hours and hours at a time, day in and day out, yes? I know his family is his family. They live together, sleep all in the same room together even though they have space where they don't have to. They do it because it's peaceful for them to sleep next to the ones you love.

I get that. It is a good feeling when your kiddos sleep in the same room as you do. You feel safe and protective and warm. It's so hard to explain because our culture is so disconnected from our family. We move out so early and don't keep in touch like we should. We build walls around ourselves. They don't have those walls. Their family is so important to them. I want that aspect in my home. I want that culture for my family. It will be good for us.

I want you to watch this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzZE1oeqh7o

he makes some good points about long distance relationships. I know several others here are in long distance relationships, mine is so different because of why? It's Pakistan? He's a Muslim?

As for England, that is my bf's most favorite place in the world. This trip is to meet his family, which is custom. It would be incredibly insulting if I met him, unchaperoned in a country that is foreign to both of us. It would be like a honeymoon, sure. But the RIGHT way to do this is by being formally introduced to his family and getting to know his culture in a more intimate, lived-in way.

Then there is no beating around the bush about the way his life really is, though I've seen the majority of it anyway from this side. I've even got to sit in Skype and listen to his family talk and laugh with him. But a 6 year old and 14 year old little brother, a 17 year old little sister, him, his mom and dad. They aren't posers. That's most certainly his family. And what would they have to gain if they weren't being truthful?

But thank you for the concern. I have spoken to many people who have visited Pakistan for pleasure travels. It's a beautiful country and the people there absolutely LOVE guests. You have to realize, they don't drink or party at all there. The way they have a good time is by family gatherings.
 
I'm wondering what you'd like from the forum when you're posting about recent updates. It seems that many people are voicing caution, but you are confident in your decision. Personally, I am thinking about how much the role of NRE is playing here after getting out of a very terrible marriage with your husband and spurring your desire to jump into the next phase of your life, but it seems like you're not looking for people to voice their concerns. So what were you hoping for from your post?
 
I agree with Reflections, that perhaps we could be more helpful if we knew what you were looking for in terms of feedback? Also, it seems as though you are divorcing, and will be leaving a poly relationship for a mono one with your BF, and don't feel that you, yourself, are poly; so, I am at a bit of a loss.
 
I have to say, you sound incredibly naive. In Pakistan, it is possible that you would be stoned to death for being polyamorous. Women's rights are few and far betwee. You and your boyfriend would have to marry and then your children would become his property. This idealised version you have in your head of Pakistan just isn't the reality whatsoever. It's not fair for you to put your children in a situation where they have less rights and access to health care and education because you want your boyfriend close. That's not the choice a conscientious parent makes for their children.

This doesn't mean that Pakistan doesn't have some wonderful aspects, but it does mean that one should consider very carefully before commiting to living there. Especially women, sadly.

You need to grow up and get your head out of this fantasy world. I understand you have been through tough times but this simply is not the answer.

I'm with Mightymax on this one. Do you really have any idea what life is like for a women or children in Pakistan. Sure the US or Europe may have issues, but I feel your view of life in a Muslim theocracy is a best rose tinted and at worst deluded. Be very careful.
 
I wasn't going to mention this initially just so you could expose exactly how naive you are. My father is white but from Pakistan. I speak Urdu and Hindi. I know exactly what life is like for women, and particularly Western women in Pakistan. I know your boyfriend's family may have sold you some idealized view of what life will be like for you, but that is not the reality at all. It wouldn't even be the reality for me as a white Christian woman in Pakistan.

Marrying a Muslim in MN is different because the law is on your side. It does not allow men to beat women, sexually abuse them or confine them to the home. In Pakista, if your husband chooses to do that to you, the law protects his right to treat his wife how he sees fit. Especially a Western white woman who they see as promiscuous and immoral.

This is you potentially ruining your children's lives for some guy off the Internet. It's terrible and I sincerely hope that someone cares enough about your kids to take them away from you before you do this to them. I really do. You are seriously immature and naive to think this is a good idea at all. You just have no idea. Even if there was a way to ensure that your children would be safe from oppression, you would not know it because you have not even acknowledged the severity of the risks of moving there. It's an awful, awful idea and one that is about a mother putting her romantic needs ahead of her kids. That's never a good thing.
 
I am sorry you have lived through the horror of rape. I am happy you are finding peace for yourself. I am glad your giving your children the freedom of summer with grandparents.

I hope your new life meets your expectations. I don't understand your points and why you want to espouse to a multi internationally site the wonders of one country and the suckage and of another. However, I don't need to know.

What I do know is I don't drink kool aide since I have grown up.
 
OP, I am not anti-Muslim. However, it is quite a different thing to be in a relationship with a Muslim man here in the states versus going to stay with one in a Muslim country, where women have very little rights or freedoms, even if the man seems to you to be very progressive. Even here, there have been a number of incidents where Muslim men from other countries could not completely come to terms with their traditional upbringing and influences while living in the states and the results were horrible consequences for the women who got involved with them. Do you think anyone would listen to you if you had the same complaints about a Muslim partner in Pakistan that you have about your husband? No. No one will. They would say your body belongs to him.

You are angry at your husband, and rightly so. You have been violated again and again, and need to escape and recover from the abuse you've been suffering.

Survivors of abuse will look at any possible escape as a much better situation than they are in. You are still vulnerable and wrapped up in the deep feelings of having been violated -- you have not recovered sufficiently from what you have been through. It is very easy to look at being in Pakistan as better than where you are, and to see your long-distance boyfriend as someone who will love, cherish, and save you. Maybe he is that man, maybe not. Maybe he and all the children in the room are who they say they are when you Skype, maybe not. You would be a fool to go without first checking into his background - and I would say this to anyone leaving the US to go live with someone in any foreign country.

Maybe you need to just be with yourself, and take care of you without looking to another man to fix your life for you.

I caution you to wait at least one more year before you go. Wait and recover in familiar surroundings with support systems that are available to you. There are shelters, therapy, and a legal system here, in which you can find healing and the ability to move on. You won't get any of that in Pakistan.
 
Also, and I am sorry if i missed this, but I didn't see it anywhere upon re-reading: where and how did you meet your boyfriend online, if I may ask?
 
Often, we see folks who immediately move from one relationship into another -I did it, certainly - and it can definitely make things more difficult when you're trying to reclaim yourself after an awful, traumatic period in your life.

I see everyone's concern here to be more like the folks who caution others to maybe not move in with their BF right away, regardless of who they are or where they live. Is moving in actually in your (and your children's) best interest so soon after going through such an awful experience?

For me personally, I still think I'd have had a bit more confidence and stability in my own life if I'd waited and lived alone for a while after my divorce. Instead, I decided to not just jump into a relationship, but a poly one at that. WHEE! :p I didn't get the chance to really settle down and rediscover ME without having to unravel all the new relationship stuff out from that part of my life as well. Determining what *I* want for myself isn't always best when I'm also trying to figure out where my new relationship with my partner is going. And I only moved two miles down the road.

The caution about moving abroad is something to consider as well. You're already going through a period of upheaval, and moving overseas - regardless of the support you hope to receive from your BF and his family - will have its own adjustments and stressors, and that's even without addressing any of the other concerns about moving to Pakistan in general. You will be moving to an unfamiliar area, around many people who don't speak your language natively, with a very limited support system (who you've only known via limited interaction - certainly not the "living with" immersion that can make or break relationships). It may just be piling stress upon stress to even consider this right now.

I'd recommend talking to your counselor, if you have one, and seeing if you could just sit back and take some time for yourself, outside the whirlwind of your other relationship, overseas trips, planned moves, etc. That is, if you're looking for recommendations...
 
Often, we see folks who immediately move from one relationship into another -I did it, certainly - and it can definitely make things more difficult when you're trying to reclaim yourself after an awful, traumatic period in your life.

I see everyone's concern here to be more like the folks who caution others to maybe not move in with their BF right away, regardless of who they are or where they live. Is moving in actually in your (and your children's) best interest so soon after going through such an awful experience?

I'd just like to say that I so much agree with this. 11 years ago this year I came out of a 10 year relationship. It meant a house move to a much smaller home and taking on full responsibility for caring for the two large dogs that my ex and I had together - one of whom had behavioural problems and the other of whom had health problems.

I'd never lived along and I'd also never been wholly responsible for the entire household income.

To say it was a shock to the system is very much an understatement. Although ending that relationship was the right thing to do for both of us, I really struggled for a while. Holding down my job and caring for the dogs was all that I could cope with at first.

I was scared and sad. If I could have found another relationship then I would have jumped straight into it.

As things worked out, I didn't.

As time passed, I came to appreciate my time on my own more and more. I travelled the country with my dogs going on courses to learn more about them and how to help them. I did a degree - just because I could. Just because I was interested in the subject. I came to appreciate my job more than I ever had. I found new friends, new social opportunities. I did new things. I had time and space to myself to rest and relax between outings.

After 7 years, I found myself in a new relationship. I find it challenging for sure. I'm used to being by myself and I really liked it so to have a partner to think about still feels strange even after 4 years. For all of that, my partner and I have a good, constructive relationship.

My life is where I want it to be. More - I know that I can be absolutely fine if it changes. I don't cling to people or feel the need to.

I think that had I jumped straight into a relationship, I would have found it difficult (maybe impossible) to find a life that is authentic for me.

I understand the desire to jump straight into a new relationship if one ends but I think it is often good to resist that desire and spend some time alone.

IP
 
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Hello KerrBear,

There is something I'm confused about: Are you just going to visit your boyfriend in Pakistan or are you actually going to live in Pakistan permanently? My other question is, are your children going to be living with you in Pakistan or are they staying in the United States?

Personally, I consider Islam and Christianity to be similar in that the quality of both belief systems depends on the people who practice them. So I am not concerned about religious issues per se. I myself am an atheist.

Overall Pakistan is an impoverished country that lacks many of the amenities we take for granted in the States. But I'm not even completely worried about that, at least not if your boyfriend's family is as wealthy as he says they are. I suppose they wouldn't be skyping if they were dirt poor.

I'm somewhat concerned about the Pakistani legal system with respect to women's rights. But the biggest worry I have is the level of corruption I believe exists in the Pakistani government. I worry about that because you could be badly mistreated by officers of the law ... I'm not sure it's impossible for you to be imprisoned for a very long time for some trivial offense. There's probably a certain amount of luck involved there. If you're lucky you'll only have to deal with the honorable officers of the law.

Entering Pakistan is probably fairly easy, but leaving would probably be very hard. Even if you're just visiting there's a chance something could go wrong and you could end up stuck there.

Is it a beautiful country? By all the gods it must be; the highest point in that land is the summit of K2. If you do go to Pakistan and get the chance, go and see the mountains in K2's vicinity! That would be a cool opportunity. Take lots of pictures!

I hope I have not offended by expressing my concerns; I wish you well and believe you have the right to dictate the course of your own life. If this is what you want to do, then go with my blessing.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
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