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Old 08-20-2011, 07:35 PM
ClariceK ClariceK is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
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RP I actually agree with much of what is in the document that you shared. I think that often DaJoshy is sarcastic "I have often said "If it wasn't for sarcastic remarks he wouldn't remark at all" but honestly, Josh is honest to a fault. She wanted him to tell her he loved her, he said over and over again that he cared very much for her (as do I still if I am honest, but after the way I was hurt by her saying she loved me and my returning that because I could be honest when I said it to find out that she was telling others she wished I would leave the relationship, much of that love has turned to hurt) but that he didn't feel that saying "I love you" just because she wants to hear that is appropriate if he didn't really feel that way. I can't say that I can really disagree with him in that. I wouldn't want him to bullshit me and say he loved me if he didn't. In fact, we were dating for almost a year before he said the love word to me although I said it often to him in that time. I fall and fall hard when I do, he takes time.

Does DaJoshy have a massive ego? Yes he does, and honestly he would be the first to say he does. But I also love him for who he is, and I don't really try much to change him. Does he hurt my feelings sometimes? Yes he does, and often if I am to be honest, but I also know that it is not intentional on his part, because I know that if he knew what he said would have hurt me he wouldn't have said it. Josh is honest, too honest many times. While others think something that may be rude or insensitive, Josh actually says those things because I think he feels that he is being honest.

Our problems with communication are not so much his not talking about feelings, but more my not liking the way he does express them. I can look at many situations where he did express his feelings, but because those expressions of feelings weren't what I wanted to hear, I decided that he was uncommunicative. Because he doesn't talk about his emotions for hours like I can and do, doesn't necessarily mean he doesnt share his emotions. Sometimes those emotions come out as anger (not a uncommon trait for many men actually) and that anger has to pass and the bravado has to pass and the ego has to shrink a litle, but he gets past that and shares, did he share his deepest darkest emotions with her like I did, no he didn't, but she also would walk out of the room when he did talk about what was important to him because she though t it boring. I dont know that I would have shared too deeply if I got that response.

Yes he does think that psychology is a bunch of bullshit, but you know what, so do a LOT of people in this world. His feeling the way he does about my therapist is more about my issues with my therapist then my husbands. My therapist and I have been for many years now not really working the best. He has done great things for me, which my husband does see and give him credit for. But in the last years it has become more and more that my therapist and I spend 3/4 of the session "talking shop" and the rest catching up on my latest activities with my nonprofit. There is a deep current of transference and counter transference going through the relationship and I have spent a long time now talking to my husband about my dissatisfaction and my frustration WITH MYSELF for not having the balls to talk to my therapist about this, and not wanting to hurt my therapists feeling or seem "unfaithful" to him. I didn't really go much into this because it wasn't relevant to the post about my husband wanting me to drop him. Honestly, when I analized the whole situation later when ti was less of a "hot topic" in the house I realized that it was my way of trying to use my husband as a scapegoat for my ending the relationship, and then I tried using the "He doesnt agree with my life choices so I have to dump him" angle and neither worked the way I wanted them to. Hubby said that he was tired of listening to me complain about it and to just dump him already instead of saying "I wish I had the balls to say I need to move on" which honestly kinda parallels the situation with SU. If hubby was really that threatened he would have asked me to dump him 4 years ago when I started complaining about my therapist to him on a weekly sometimes daily basis. This is MY issue not his, I wasn't owning it the way I needed to and I was wrong for that.

Yes my husband sees him as a wedge between us because he doesn't like him (my therapist thinks Josh is brash and too uncaring in his expressing himself, I agree with my therapist on this often, hubby kinda takes that as his hating him, I think that it is possible to feel that way about hubby and not hate him, with hubbys distrust of therapists, I can see his side too) so I dont feel forced to leave my therapist (I still see him in fact, because every week I say "Ok tell him you think hes not right for you anymore!!You can do it" then I sit down and say "Guess what I learned in class this week" .

As far as the work thing that was brought up, honestly it was a matter of it not being tasteful and honestly I wouldn't go into work and kiss my husband either, it is not appropriate for his work situation weather the kissing was done by me or anyone else. I told both of them this and hubby got the brunt of my feelings on this for his allowing it to happen with ANYONE in his office like that. It wasn't a "how can you kiss her at work" it was a "How can you be so unprofessional and rude like that?".

SU was included in our extended families and was also brought to NUMEROUS work events, she wasn't excluded, she was asked not to kiss hubby at work, I didn't think that to be too much to ask. She was included to the point that she often went with me to my sister (only family in the state's) house and spent time with her. She was included in EVERYTHING we did.

We were honest with SU about the boundaries we wanted for the relationship, she was fine with those boundaries. If she wasn't ok with those boundaries then she had the right to say that those were not ok with her. I think that many good points were made. We should not have under any circumstances let her move in. We should not under any circumstances helped to feed and clothe her child, and next time that mistake will not be made.

I am HIGLY offended that even with DaJoshy being the sarcastic smartass that he is that anyone would think that we "treated this girl like a slut" she choose the name slutty unicorn, I said numerous times I didn't like it, that I didn't see her as that and neither did hubby, but I also didn't take her walking around talking about how she was a slut all the time and my telling her not to say that as a sign that maybe I needed to not be giving her the benefit of the doubt in that regard. I mean I sometimes take a too "analytical" approach and forget Freud's "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and when I heard her say she was a slut I took that as a person with poor self image, instead of at face value as what it was, which was her way of saying that she truly wasn't committed and that she was "being slutty". I wont make that mistake next time.

Every other relationship we have had over the years had ended pretty amicably. Either they or I or hubby has decided it wasn't working for whomever and that we needed to end it. They are still friends of ours, although many have moved to here or there. There has been true (sometimes very blunt) honesty, but the women have also been independent, self supporting women who had their own lives outside of us. To say that we "used" her is absolutely incorrect. Hubby stopped sleeping with her shortly after he felt that she was unfaithful to the relationship. We asked her about it , she said she wasn't. She said she was perfectly happy (of course she was, she had us supporting her and him supplementing that secretly) and she denied things over and over. We didn't use her, in fact, that is why hubby stopped sleeping with her because he DIDN'T want her to feel used once she realized we knew she was unfaithful. She wasn't dishonest because she felt that she couldn't be honest, she was dishonest because she couldn't be honest with us till after she was more financially stable and they were ready to be together.

I guess that is why hubby is so angry and his anger comes across masked as sarcasm and bravado. I am actually kinda shocked that more on here couldn't or wouldn't see that. I guess I expected too much. Instead he now feels angry and hurt by her, and even less validated in his anger by being told he was the wrong one for "Hurting that poor girl like that" and being seen as a "pig" instead of the guy hurting that he is.

I am sorry that maybe you have NO IDEA about the number of men who LEAVE THEIR WIVES on their deathbed because they "cant deal with their emotions" but this guy has stood there by my side and maybe not been the perfect man, but he has always cared for and treated every single woman he has ever been with with caring and respect to the best OF HIS ABILITY which is about all I ever ask of ANYONE in this world. I am more hurt by the trashing he got on here then I am by anything that has happened in this relationship because I had seen this place as a place where it was ok to be not right all the time and ok to not always agree.

Hubby was going to reply, even typed something out, but then said "Why should I bother, I am a pig to them and will always be, I wont reply or go to their site again" I guess you guys were all right, he has no emotions and is just an uncaring ass out there using women and tossing them aside. I guess I just didn't see that side of him while he nursed me through cancer and visited me daily driving 100 miles each way to see me back when I was in hospitals. The number of divorces that happen after a illness is astounding, a very large number of marriages never make ti through them.
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:50 PM
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clairegoad clairegoad is offline
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Great... I find the thread after everyone is pissed off.

My opinion. SU needed a place to live. She wasn't interested in romance or a relationship.

I suspect she was moved out of the other house because she had overstepped boundaries there or overstayed her welcome, or just used them too much. (whether it was poly or family or friendship...)

She's in survival mode... desperate to survive. You were her lifeboat for a bit.. but she's also used enough people to make sure she has a plan B.

Perhaps she's learned, more likely she's burned out her next link in the chain of relationships. She just needs a place to stay, but she doesn't have the resources, (Job, bank account, car, etc.) to qualify for a relationship. She managed to stay afloat for several months at your place. Consider it a gift to the universe, gathering good karma, whatever..

Every relationship is different. Even bad experiences and failures teach lessons.

I'll save the comments about legal relationships vs. ethical relationships for later.

Josh-- We've seen a wide range of attitudes and personalities...It's easy for us to figure out what is wrong with someone else's relationship... But you are living your life.... Do what works for you.

I'm a unicorn... and dating a couple. My opinions are based on my experiences...
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:37 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Thanks for the long and descriptive post about your life ClariceK. I appreciate knowing a little more. Please realize... both of you, that no one here knows you. I realize it is frustrating to hear what people say when they don't know the full story. A lot of us experienced that when they first came here and it gets sorted out with time and more from YOU. Like any good relationship, it takes time, a lot of talking and patience. I hope you stay and decide to inform us, rather than blow us off. Also realize that people come from a place of caring when they write; they were concerned... that is a good thing no?

I think if you read back what you have said as if you were one of us reading, you might find that you have the same kind of response. Emapthy is a great thing in terms of on-line forum writing... at least that is my experience anyway. Reading what I write from an out side view has been really enlightening. I can sometimes even find my own answers by asking myself what I would say to someone else who approached me with the same questions!

It sounds to me like your therapist isn't working for you... I know you say you feel as if you need to be "faithful" (was that the term, excuse me if it wasn't exactly) to him and don't want to hurt his feelings, but really, if he isn't working then he isn't working.... there are counsellors and therapists out there that will suit you more and be patient with your partner thinking therapy is shit... perhaps he thinks this because this guy isn't working. I dunno.

It sounds like your partner is rather brash in his honesty. That is fine, but if he is hurting peoples feelings including yours then maybe he needs to look at how he says things. I am also very blunt and honest and sometimes people are not interested in hearing what I have to say. I have to remind myself to be gentle with my words because it can be seen as abusive when people are blunt and abrasive. I have learned a lot from using and learning about "non-violent communication" by Marshal Rosenberg... There is some interesting stuff about him here if you do a search for "communication" in the tag section. Or you could search for him on line. My husband and I have been practising his technique for years now and I have become far more empathetic to others as a result. My words were unintentionally violent sometimes before... much because of how I was raised. I am learning to not only express myself more kindly, but also learning how to ask for what I need more kindly and without blowing up.... I'm a red head with a temper

This isn't so much about the woman that you took in, but I hope it helps.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:18 AM
ClariceK ClariceK is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 32

Redpepper, Thank you so much for that reply. Honestly, the fact that it wasn't about the original post is absolutely wonderful. I have been watching a seminar tonight on marriage by a man named Mark Gungor about marriage and how the differences between how men and women think has a lot to do with many things that cause strife in both our lives and relationships. He is a minister but his seminars are in no way "preachy" and "religious" they are actually hilarious!! Here is a link to the channel that I found them on (I actually found them through my BFF but that is where they all are) I suggest watching the first one entitled "A Tale of 2 brains.1" and if you find the next number there is the entire seminar. http://www.youtube.com/user/jamcabz#p/u/16/LiFsFwY3uG8

I appreciate it not being about the original post because honestly, she is the past. And yes, we do have a lot of hurt feelings as ANYONE would. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that relationships (especially those that are online) take a lot of time to develop. Of course, if we were talking face to face these details would have been discussed, but honestly, although it seems like I type a lot, I have neuropathy in my hands, so I sometimes leave out things that may be pertinent but I dont think they really are to that SPECIFIC issue out. You would have interrupted (politely of course ) and asked questions about things that were not clear to you.

As a psychology student and honestly to be truthful, being diagnosed Bipolar at age 14, and being very intelligent, I have been studying psychology since then pretty much, I know that I need to cut ties with my therapist. I know that I give him WAY too much power then he should have in my life and mind because when I started seeing him 10 years ago I needed a therapist with that much power. I was agoraphobic, I had numerous psych admissions a year, for sometimes 6-8 weeks at a time. I was on 11 psych meds at the same time. I didn't go to school, I didn't go to lunch with friends, I didn't go anywhere. My husband picked up what we needed from wal mart on his way home from work every day. He left o work every night not knowing if I was going to be suicidal and possibly hurt myself because he wasn't there to stop me. That is a HUGE fear to have in your mind while you are trying to work and be a provider for a woman who isnt being much of a wife, shit isn't being much of a person, was pretty much a zombie.

I dont know why I am sharing this, I mean this is pretty umm deep stuff, but your post touched me, and I kinda got on a tangent. Anyway, 6 years ago I went off all the meds I have ever taken. I haven't taken any psych meds for the last 6 years. I have scoliosis of the spine and have some pretty severe mobility issues. I got a service dog for mobility, and she ended up being a Psychiatric Service dog in many ways. I enrolled in college. I had always wanted to go, and had gone after high school, but was at that time on psych meds and had to drop classes due to hospitalizations. My SD went with me to my first day of college (which was definitely a "trial run" as I had a fear of school) and my first day was AWESOME!! I decided then and there that I would dedicate myself to positivity and good things.

I have come a long way, and I write this so that you know more about where I have been, but also so that you know more about where I want to be. I am the head of a nonprofit that serves the Cancer community. My goal is to someday have a cancer center where support group meetings are held. A place where I can use my education in psychology and my own experience with cancer to help others battling. Of course with any project the size of that, it takes baby steps, and working the non profit in a pace that allows me to do school and get that degree I need to further that goal, I do the best that I can with what I have and know how to do.

Thank you for your post. It was very touching. And I will stick around. I don't know about DaJoshy, but I know that he will make the choice that is best for him.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:27 AM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Lots of problems here. I read up on other posts of yours, Clarice... You've been through a lot of health issues, mental illness, cancer. DaJoshy has shown you, however, that he thinks psychological therapy is bullshit. He has also shown in his few posts here how very sarcastic he is, and how much trouble he has simply sharing his emotions. He also doesn't understand polyamory, and just wants sex with another woman, not a full relationship. No wonder your unicorn left.

You left out the raging insecurity and control issues.

Other than that, carry on.
When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:15 AM
dragonflysky dragonflysky is offline
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Originally Posted by ClariceK View Post
...As a psychology student and honestly to be truthful, being diagnosed Bipolar at age 14, and being very intelligent, I have been studying psychology since then pretty much, I know that I need to cut ties with my therapist. I know that I give him WAY too much power then he should have in my life and mind because when I started seeing him 10 years ago I needed a therapist with that much power...
ClariceK..."off-topic" comment here: I am someone who has experienced and been treated for clinical depression for years....and I'm also an outpatient therapist. While I like that you take responsibility for giving your therapist WAY too much power, your THERAPIST has a professional responsibility to be in better control of your sessions. For him to allow you to talk about what you learned in class week after week for the bulk of your session is not professionally responsible in my book. I realize therapeutic styles differ....but therapeutic relationships can become "co-dependent" and a therapist can "enable" someone to stay stuck in the very behaviors they came to change. You intellectualize about transference and countertransference....yet that is HIS responsibility to identify it and work it out...not yours! That's what you pay him for.

I can identity to some degree because I went to a male psychiatrist for awhile and got caught up in a similar dynamic. He was extremely charismatic and charming. He stroked my personal and professional ego in lots of ways. I was used to giving my power over to men in authority positions. I wanted them to "like me"...to affirm for me that I was an ok person. (The affirmation I never got from my father....ahhhh Freud is alive and well! LOL) The BEST thing I ever did for myself was to walk away from him....and never go back. I didn't tell him I was quitting. I didn't try and explain it to him, because that would just feed into the dysfunction and co-dependency in the relationship. I hired him as a professional, not a friend. He wasn't meeting my therapeutic needs. So I "fired" him. I didn't owe him an explanation. I had to stop worrying so much about how it would affect him....and start fighting for what was best for ME. If he was an ethical professional he would have been happy for me that I finally had the courage to do what was in my best interest with no regard for him. I have no idea what he thought. I never went back to ask. Was it easy?? Hell no!! Was it in my best interest? Hell yes!! I have NEVER regretted the decision.

Please....take good care of yourself.....

Last edited by dragonflysky; 08-24-2011 at 06:23 AM.
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