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  #21  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:19 AM
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"This side of poly is harder than anything I've ever experienced!!!! How do you do this side?????"

Well, the thing is, this doesn't seem like a poly problem to me. It's happening in a poly situation, but it's not about the usual jealousy issues, boundary issues, time issues, or any of that. By lying to this woman about something so fundamental he is deeply wounding you both. I don't wanna sound melodramatic, but this feels more like if you guys were in a BDSM relationship and he started hitting you outside of "playtime" without your consent. Sure, it seems like there's a connection, but he's being abusive, at least emotionally. This is a pretty warped form of poly.

I really feel for both you and this poor woman. He'd better come to his senses quick and realize how awful he's being... then beg forgiveness from you both. No amount of attitude issues on your part justifies him pretending to a new lover that she is going to be someone special in his life, while telling you the opposite. It makes me so sad just to think about it. Obviously he's lying to someone, and if he doesn't shape up he may well end up with no one.

I'm sorry to hear about how much this is hurting you. I can understand why you'd want to self-medicate, but pleeeeease be smarter than that.

An aside... I'm surprised to hear that Butch and you don't even exchange little gifts. Obviously everyone's poly is different, but if you guys have a loving connection that involves dates and physical affection, how would little signs of affection tip things over into a problematic territory?
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  #22  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:27 AM
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I guess what I really wanted to say in that last aside is... the whole idea of poly is loving more than one person. I firmly believe you can be whole-heartedly on the "team" of a married couple while saying "I love you" to one of them. There are very, very few circumstances under which I can imagine leaving my girlfriend. One would be if I thought I was damaging her relationship with her husband. It's exactly because I love her so much that I see it to be of vital importance to support her relationship with her husband. It gives her so much that I couldn't live with myself if I thought I'd taken it from her.

I apologize for posting a semi-related manifesto on your blog while you're dealing with such tough things, but I felt this was important to say.
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  #23  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:41 AM
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Hey Carma,
I know Sundance hasn't posted here in a few months, but maybe it would be useful if he came here and shared what's going on with him and why he's continuing to lie to this chick. We won't string him up, promise!
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  #24  
Old 08-24-2011, 03:16 PM
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First of all, I love you all for taking the time to read and respond to my situation. It's waaaay more helpful than any therapy I've ever had! Mostly because you've all experienced some of it, yourselves, and you share your own experiences. THANK YOU.

Second -- thanks for the support in my desire to avoid self-medicating. I'm taking my sobriety very seriously. Just for today, I know I will not drink (or take a valium -- good thing I never tried pills, or I mighta been a goner, I fear). I quit before my body was screaming for it, so I consider myself extremely lucky. Done gambling with that shit. One day at a time.

NYc -- I am sorry we didn't meet up, too!!! Would have liked a hug, and to see your face!!! Please come to Ohio someday...

Dinged -- I'm swooning over the Butch trivia. You're so cool! "The sky isn't falling... and if it is, fix it...." Damn, what a Chicken Little I can be! You crack me up. Thanks for the perspective. In light of what you've gone through with poly, I cannot believe you are so willing to help me.

Annabel, Open, and Minx -- thanks. I realize that you are all so right -- this is not a poly problem, per se, and that IS the problem! We need to get on the board or not -- Sundance, are you open to this, or not? Is it love, are we supporting one another's hearts, or are we being possessive and abusive? Are we loving and respecting these people, or are we using and exploiting them for our own selfish gains?

When I come back to the poly model (which is, "loving more") I think we can, and everything is beautiful. The thought of extending love to our paramours and receiving it too, makes my heart soar.

But then I get caught up in thinking about the commitment stuff, and I don't know. How much of love involves sacrificing -- and who, exactly is going to get sacrificed?! (I realize I am being dramatic, here -- no one is exactly being burned on the altar, right?!) It's really got to be a team effort, all across the board. We have to love as a couple, so that we can allow for the giving. Right?

Interesting, Annabel, about the gift-giving. We have major issues in our marriage about spending (bigger than the scope of this forum, really!) Sundance buys EVERYTHING he needs. I never get a chance to find something he'd like, because he goes out and buys it, already! Which is a big sore spot for me. I get very resentful of him, being so driven and focused on creature comforts. He has a list a mile long of specific THINGS he needs in order to be comfortable in this life. Everything -- specific brands of hair products, food, sunglasses, shirts, etc., I mean, he will go out of his way to get something he needs and WILL NOT REST until he gets it. I think it's why I was drawn to Butch, who is the exact opposite, and much more like me -- deprives himself, delayed gratification, minimalist. I read the Languages of Love book, and the gift-giving thing is a language, but I'm not sure any of us is fluent in it, haha! There is an art, to giving, AND receiving gifts. I think the most difficult thing in this has been that Sundance accepted gifts from "Bombshell Barbie" (I have finally named her!!! Barbie for short ) with such ease, she gave them so easily, he was delighted in them and it made a huge impact. When I buy him something, it feels like I'm just saving him a trip!!!

I just realized that SHE represents yet one more thing that I could not give him. And I am resentful as hell.

I need to MEET her. Don't you think??? Even though I know I'm going to be intimidated by the BOMBSHELL-ness! I've seen pictures. She's fucking gorgeous. But what would I want, for my beautiful Sundance? Looks are important to him. I'm no slouch, myself, but I know she's got me trumped in the bodacious body department, haha, and I hope I don't get too caught up in that. Ego, yuck.

NYc -- you are spot on. I think it would be great for Sundance to come share. Love your promise not to string him up -- tee hee, but I know it's some tough love here. AND I know, if he comes to give HIS side of it all, I will have some of my own shit to account for, EEK! I scared!!! But then again, I do enough beating up on myself, anyway, I can't imagine anyone being any harsher on me than I am already. I do a lot of "searching and fearless moral inventory" on myself -- but it does help to get the tough love, it truly does. If I were doing so great at all of this, I wouldn't be here looking for support and perspective, now would I?
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  #25  
Old 08-24-2011, 03:26 PM
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Looking at my avatar, and my signature, makes me sad. I think I liked when it was just three, and I was the Queen Bee.

Now Barbie is in there, too. Where is she going to fit in? Is my ego going to let that happen?

I am feeling: about this right now. Mostly: .


SHE wasn't in the movie. It was ALL ETTA! (Butch Cassidy, however, did partake at the whorehouse. Which... I would NOT LIKE either!!!) Life is not a movie, is it, and there are no scripts. Real life is stranger than fiction, isn't it?!
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  #26  
Old 08-24-2011, 06:08 PM
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As much as we may try to understand things, it can be nigh impossible until we've been there ourselves. If Sundance can get past the need to misrepresent things to Barbie, this may end up being a very important chance for you to be more in touch with what he's feeling, which can only help your relationship.

You've been talking a lot about your ego lately and I know you're feeling threatened, but I remember the things you wrote earlier about feeling like you were already her friend. It doesn't seem to me like you have too big an ego to tolerate another woman in the movie of your life, it's the lying and the lack of communication that are the problems.

I wonder, in a way, if he's handling this so poorly on purpose, consciously or unconsciously. Like if he does poly poorly enough you'll ask him not to see Barbie any more and then you'll feel like you have to stop seeing Butch to make things fair and then he'll get his mono marriage back.

Also, your comments about gifts were interesting, everybody really does treat these things differently. Maybe I should read that 5 languages or love book too.
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  #27  
Old 08-24-2011, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post

I wonder, in a way, if he's handling this so poorly on purpose, consciously or unconsciously. Like if he does poly poorly enough you'll ask him not to see Barbie any more and then you'll feel like you have to stop seeing Butch to make things fair and then he'll get his mono marriage back.

.
BINGO!

Wow.

I've thought along these lines myself! I think this is EXACTLY what he's doing, and like you said, consciously OR unconsciously, I don't know. I am not always sure if he is horribly calculating and manipulating, or just floundering. I am not sure to feel sympathy for him, or deep fear. I seriously struggle with this.

He brought her to peek in our windows Saturday night, and one of our neighbors SAW him with her. This particular neighbor just HAPPENED to be Butch's EX-WIFE. Lovely. Now I'm wondering, did he secretly HOPE that would happen?!? It was risky to bring her here! What if one of our kids had seen them? Does he want this whole thing to blow up in my face?

Because, of course, this is ALL my creation. This is the mess I have made. I think he wants it to just resolve, one way or another. I know deep down he wants me to choose. Sometimes I just wish he'd force me to. Then other times, I simply don't know what that would do. I could end it with Butch, and promise to never see him again, to never touch him again... but could I keep that promise??? Can I promise that on a day when our marriage is going through a rough patch I won't give up hope, or sometime when I know Butch is struggling I won't become overwhelmed with compassion and just risk it all, by sneaking??? I NEVER want to go back to that. I've been there. It was terrible.

I feel like there is that choice, looming over me all the time. My whole life feels like a constant ultimatum. I'm really, really tired.

Just now he told me he is not going to have sex with her anymore. That they are just going to be friends, that he told her so, too.

WHATEVER.

Maybe we would be better off with a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement. (He keeps things from me, anyway, and I'd have no idea if he was telling me the truth. He works 2 hours away and that is where she lives, plus she is affiliated with his company and comes to his office all the time). I don't want to set him up to feel he has to lie to me. I'd rather not wonder whether he's telling the truth or not. I'd rather not believe him, than be blindsided when he's suddenly changed his mind, usually because I was not being affectionate enough.

It's kind of like his relationship with her is a punishment to me. For what? For loving Butch. And it is very sad to be punished for loving someone.

Funny, because he gets REWARDED, for having sex with her! I feel threatened, so I up my game. We get closer and more lovey than ever. However, he knows that by sleeping with her, he is advocating me sleeping with Butch.

I am loopy. Sorry!
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  #28  
Old 08-24-2011, 09:07 PM
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Sundance needs to hear everything you're writing here!
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  #29  
Old 08-25-2011, 03:03 PM
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I've told him a lot of it, but I don't think he's actually come here to read/post. I'm not sure why he hasn't -- ?

Last night he was on his way home from work and talking to me. I was telling him how I don't want any "little white lies" about his relationship with her, no matter how difficult the truth may be. (I have already "caught" him in a few regarding her -- some small, some huge). I've been the liar, I know, it seems so much easier to spare the other's feelings, to just not mention something, or fib a teeny bit, what does it hurt? So tempting, but so horribly destructive! The truth does come out -- and when it does, it brings so much doubt about all the other things you believed! I learned that the hard way. Since we made our V agreement, last Oct., Butch and I have been 100% committed to honesty with Sundance. Painfully, brutally honest, even at times when dammit, I knew Sundance was going to wince in pain from it. Hate that. But sooooooo much better than lying, and getting caught. It damages trust so badly. I would far rather have the pain coming from the big ugly truth than from a pretty little lie.

Ok so we were HAVING this actual conversation, when his other line beeped and he said he had to go because it was his boss.

I knew it wasn't his boss.

When he came home, I mentioned that I didn't believe it was his boss calling. He bluffed, said, "Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Do you want to check my phone?"

Naturally figuring I'd say, "No, no, I trust you, I don't want to be like this, all jealous and suspicious....you're right I was being silly...."

But instead I said, "Ok. Show me."

Sure enough, it had been her. At first he acted sheepish, like a little boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar. My first instinct was to treat him as such. I mean, I knew I was "right," and that feeling is pretty cozy, gives a license for smugness, right? Oh, now I can scold you, you bad, bad, boy....

But wow, it didn't last, it had a nasty backlash for both of us.

My train of thought, all over the board:

You LIED to me.
After we'd JUST been talking about how hurtful and damaging that can be!
WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT???
I can't believe you.
I can't trust you.
Will I ever be able to trust you???
I lied to him before, too, so I know how easy it is to give in to that temptation.
He just didn't want to hurt me.
It didn't mean enough for him to tell me, it was just a phone call.
It DID mean enough that he chose NOT to tell me!
Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Don't make a molehill out of a mountain!
If I let this slide, I am saying, "Ok, little white lies are understandable."
If I let this slide, I am saying, "Ok, little white lies are acceptable."
It's not that I don't "forgive" him, who am I to judge?
On the big scheme of things, HOW IMPORTANT IS IT?
How honest do people have to be? Is my version of honesty different than his, and is that ok?? Is anyone in this world 100% truthful, 100% of the time?

How important is it?

I don't know. I went back and forth with it, all night. I am scared. (IS the sky falling, or isn't it?)

I know for me, if I get tangled up in lies, I become someone I don't want to be, someone even I don't know anymore. Sundance is the only one who knows his own truth, and what he is comfortable with. But how close can you really get to other people, when you lie to them? And how close than they get, to you??? Isn't it equally as sickening when they BUY your lies?
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  #30  
Old 08-25-2011, 03:15 PM
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So this morning, I decided to try something new.

Sundance and I are leaving tonight for a short trip together for 3 days. We are really looking forward to our time together. But he was worried when he left this morning, if I was going to see Butch, and I was worried, is he going to see Barbie?

I offered to him, that I would not initiate a meeting with Butch. (If Butch initiates, I will probably go. But, as usual, I will text Sundance if I do).

I then told Sundance, "I WANT you to meet with Barbie. In fact, I insist! It will get me excited, and just knowing you are going makes me feel like we are doing it together!" I did feel very aroused physically and I felt giddy about it, woo hoo, yeah baby!

He agreed to stop at her house! I was thrilled! I asked him to call or text me afterwards. It's been an hour and a half now, so I should be hearing from him soon. I am happy.

And I haven't heard from Butch, which is frankly, a relief! Sundance gets to have all the fun today. I get: a husband who has been worshipped and adored for awhile, who DOESN'T have to lie to me today!!! And who will come home looking forward to our special one-on-one time together.

Feels GOOD.
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