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  #11  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:28 PM
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First of all, stop dwelling on past mistakes and any misgivings you have about how you conducted yourself. You are human and not perfect. You now have awareness of what was going on with you, so just use it as good information. Stop beating yourself up.

Second, you need to really sit down and talk with Sundance about how uncomfortable you are with his lying to her and painting a bad picture of you. Make sure he knows how important it is to you that you and she meet before their relationship proceeds. This is important! He knows Butch -- why shouldn't you know her?

While it may be true that going to her family event might simply be something rather casual and easy for her, to many people that would be a big deal. He's got to get honest with her. She would feel like total shit introducing him to her family with a certain idea of who he is and what his marriage is like, only to find out later that he lied to her about it.

Keep the lines of communication pen with him and ask him what he wants and needs to repair what's been happening between you!
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An excellent blog post against hierarchy in polyamory: http://solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-i...short-version/
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  #12  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:54 PM
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Thank you all so much for the feedback. It feels like it is happening so fast. I honestly did not anticipate the family thing coming on so soon. Thanks, Dinged, maybe I should look at it as just a party, no big deal.

I am pretty sure I know most of what's been said between them because he has shown me his text conversations with her. He even had me take pictures of him to send her (but I guess she thinks he used a timer). I helped him rope her in, I guess, but I was giddy with the thought that she and I were going to meet soon. That she would be my friend. Suddenly it's like, yeah, red flag all right! He's walking right into her life! SHE was supposed to walk into MINE!!!

Maybe I am being selfish. Maybe she is going to be so much easier and breezier, after how complicated I have been for so long, maybe he belongs with her. I know I am projecting, because I am so afraid of what COULD happen.

I am so convinced he is going to fit right in to her family. Maybe he won't like them at all! Maybe i just need to breathe.

Another red flag: after all the crying I've done all last night and this morning, after him telling me he'd cancel, come to find out just a few minutes ago, he still hasn't canceled on her. Maybe this was really important to him? He doesn't want to hurt her. Like Minxxa said, it's just one missed dinner -- what's more important? He said I was, but he waited to cancel, figuring he'd talk me into it, figuring I'd come to my senses, figuring he'd lie to her at the last minute, WHAT? I told him to go, so he doesn't have to break his word. We'll deal with the fallout later.

I'll be online later tonight for some support, y'all!
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Last edited by Carma; 08-16-2011 at 10:07 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2011, 07:14 PM
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But have you told him how his lying to her is affecting you? Does he understand that he needs to come clean with her about the two of you? Or is he going to this event with her intending to keep the lies going? This is so not fair to you or her for him to continue with the dishonesty!
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"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
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An excellent blog post against hierarchy in polyamory: http://solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-i...short-version/
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2011, 08:32 PM
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I feel like a total basket case.

Sundance went to her family dinner. I made it through and I was ok with it. Thanks, everyone, for your support and feedback.

I went to NYC for 5 days and it was really hard leaving Sundance, feeling unsettled with our current status. I was pretty preoccupied the whole trip, which is too bad because I usually just have a blast with my daughters.

I arranged a babysitter for him one of the nights, he wanted to go out "solo." Surprise, she ended up driving into town. (Does he really think I am supposed to believe that wasn't the plan all along? Why even pretend? I'm not sure. Maybe it seems less intentional that way -- ?)

Before I left I asked him please not to have her come to our house while I was gone. I would like to meet her before she comes to my home. I don't think that is being unreasonable. Besides the fact that I am not the greatest housekeeper in the world, and I am embarrassed that the house is not tidy (I'm really ashamed of the state of my closets, for example!), I also did not want her being with my sons without even meeting me first.

Well, the boys were in the house with a babysitter, and Sundance let her peek in the windows. He says she begged him to let her come see the house. (But he did say he had straightened up before he left. Therefore I know he had every intention of letting her peek in). I'm not sure how I feel about this. A little like he wants to push everything right to the edge, you know???

She buys him gifts all the time. Every day he is coming home with something new. A key chain, a little plaque that says "to the world you might be just one person, but to one person, you just might be the world." A duffel bag, a mouse for his computer, some sea salt scrub. This time she brought a book for my kids.

Still Sundance says she is not his type, that he loves only me, that she is just a fling and he is probably done with her now, anyway, that he doesn't care if he sees her again.

We are a mixed up couple of people!!!!

They ended up Saturday night at a park and she satisfied him orally. I don't really mind that part, haha. Except that they were in the moonlight (as they were the night after her family gathering too, having sex), and I think that is very romantic. It's not the sex that bothers me, it's the sweet little things she thinks to do for him. Which would not bother me so much, either, if I knew she was on "Team Carma and Sundance," and not trying to wrangle him away from me!

Butch is definitely on our team, and has never acted otherwise. He discourages any little acts of sentimentality on my part. He would never accept a little gift from me. We do not say I love you and we do not exchange gifts. We do not call or text each other often, we keep everything in moderation, lest we get lost in NRE and mess everything all up!

Am I just expecting Sundance to be a carbon copy of me, again??? Oh, shit. I think I am. Argh! I can be so fucking arrogant. Maybe I forgot -- he is going to do poly HIS way, not mine.

I am a control freak, that's what. And I am scared, more now than I've ever been, of the unknowns that I THOUGHT I'd be so ok with when he went to her!
I'm scared. This really is hard, and I keep thinking, WHY did I do this, again???

Maybe I should have just left Butch well enough alone. He would have found someone to love him, in time. Why did I think it HAD to be me????

EGO. I do have one, and it is huge.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2011, 08:43 PM
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I am getting caught back up in that mono mentality, that I have to choose only one, that I can love only one, that I need to BE the only one my husband loves...

I feel like, if I can't let him love another, then I need to give up my other love. It's only fair, I can't be a hypocrite, right?!

But he keeps saying he doesn't love her. He downplays everything. Is that to spare my feelings? She is obviously getting the impression that she means something more to him!!! I know he has lied to her. So how can I believe he isn't lying to me, too???

I am thinking waaayyyy too much today. I feel like I need medication. I want to make it stop!!!! I don't drink (I am in recovery so it's not an option) and I don't use drugs, although wow, wouldn't a valium work nicely right now? I've never taken one, but I have a feeling it would be so nice to just, turn off the thoughts for awhile.... I've done a lot of 12-step work and I know it works, but I feel very overwhelmed. This side of poly is harder than anything I've ever experienced!!!! How do you do this side?????

I haven't seen Butch in over a week, and I am fighting the urge to call him. I don't want him to be dragged into this weirdness. He did talk me through the family dinner thing, though, and it helped immensely. I just don't want to need him.

I just don't want to need anyone.
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  #16  
Old 08-22-2011, 08:56 PM
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Here's my thoughts... and feel free to disagree with them, but this is from my own personal opinion on things and keep in mind some of this is hitting home for me in some ways, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it (so grain of salt and all that)

Yes, he needs to do poly his way, and he's not going to act like you or do things the way you want. You're doing great to see this, and to see that part of these issues is you wanting to control things yet knowing you can't. I so get this!!

But... there are a couple of red flags here. He lied to her and is continuing the lie in order to get stuff. Be it sex or things, he's reaping the benefits of this by using her, and lying to do it. Even if you two were not together and he was a single guy out dating, this would be not kosher. It's not okay. And that is the most important thing here, I think. She is being used for sex and attention and has no idea because she's being sold a story.

As for the stuff, I tried to explain to my hubs that when a woman starts buying you a lot of crap it means she's in love with you. Hubs had an old GF he saw a couple of weekends in the beginning of the year while he was gone, and she started doing that after the first weekend they spent together. Sent all kinds of crap, something he mentioned liking and suddenly it's showing up at his place. I told him, she wants him back, it's not just casual like he thought (even though that's what they'd discussed). Hubs laughed me off on that one saying, no, she just "does that". Yeah. Next day he gets seven texts in a row about how she doesn't know how to do this, she has all these feelings resurfacing, etc. I was like-- no kidding, big surprise.

So he's basically told her you guys are separating, she's gotten the impression that he's being neglected, you spend all this time with your boyfriend, and then is surprised that she thinks she's "dating" him, takes him home to meet the family, and during all of this he thinks she's a plaything and might be done with her at any given moment.

For me, the issue here wouldn't be even poly/relationship related. It's the fact that he thinks it's fine to lie to a woman to get her into bed, act like they're dating or building something, all the while thinking he can drop her at any moment, no biggie, because he doesn't really care about her at all. That's something he needs to address, figure out, and fix. That's just NOT cool behavior anytime.

Maybe he just felt unbalanced with you being in a relationship first, maybe he felt left out, maybe he just wants some attention-- I get all of this, believe me, I do! I'm in the same boat with hubs. And that may explain the behavior, but it doesn't make it ok, and he needs to man up and realize that.

I think maybe you've been letting it go a bit more than you should out of guilt because he's had to do all of the work and you don't want to cut into any fun he might finally be having. You're second guessing your own feelings and intentions-- and I understand that, it's good to make sure you're coming from a good place and not just reacting. But I think you need to really look at the situation and sit down and talk to him about it.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2011, 08:59 PM
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Oh dear Carma, I wish I could have seen you while you were here. I think you need to express this stuff to Sundance. Honesty down to the minute detail, everything you've written here and then some. Get it out, cry it out. He has needed consideration from you, now you need consideration from him. The lying he has done is huge and not acceptable.
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post against hierarchy in polyamory: http://solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-i...short-version/
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  #18  
Old 08-22-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
But he keeps saying he doesn't love her. He downplays everything. Is that to spare my feelings? She is obviously getting the impression that she means something more to him!!! I know he has lied to her. So how can I believe he isn't lying to me, too???.
THIS. This is what he needs to hear. That he is eroding your trust in him by lying and sneaking and downplaying things so that you get one impression when maybe that's not true. Trust is so important and once it's broken it's tough to get back and it's never quite the same.

Maybe part of the reason you're having so much difficulty now isn't so much being on the other side of things, as the fact that you're unsure of what's going on, you are not being able to trust he says what he means, and when you ask him to do/not do things he's ignoring you and pushing every boundary. Maybe if he was straight up honest, told you and her what was going on, respected your requests it would be a different story?
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  #19  
Old 08-22-2011, 10:03 PM
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Your story right now sounds so similar to J and I's with the girl he's been seeing. He told her that we were separating, they told each other "no relationship, just fun", etc., etc., etc.

Now, couple of months down the road, they are fully boyfriend/girlfriend, and she has this idea that he is monogamous with her because we're supposed to be getting divorced (we're not, we're fully together and loving life, it's just his lie to her). He thought he could just drop her at any point and be okay, but now he's realizing that he really likes her and is missing her a lot since she left for college Thursday. I talked to him about telling her the truth and he said that he did put out feelers, and found that she has no interest in anything but monogamy for both of them. J isn't a monogamous person!! So, it's all tearing him up right now.

Your hubby has got to set it straight now before it goes any further and the emotions get too deeply involved. Waiting will only produce a lot of hurt and drama. Your hubby also likes to push boundaries just like J. Some boundaries are good to push, but some are not. It's hard for people like them to figure out which is okay and which isn't unfortunately. J is slowly learning.

On a side note, J told me the other day that she has wanted to friend request me on FB so she could stalk my profile ("learn about the soon to be ex-wife" in her mind). Boy would she be in for a surprise!!! It's all about how much I love my family (boys and hubby), things we all do together, pics of flowers from hubby the other day, etc. I can guarantee that I would not be censoring my wall for her like he does. All that said to say, make sure you prepare yourself on what to do, say, and how to react should you run into her in town. Be upfront with him about how you would expect to handle things if this were to happen. It may put a little pressure on him to do the right thing and man up with the truth.
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2011, 03:30 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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I could be way off here but ....this might make some sense. This poly situation came to sundance's door ....he has had problems adjusting (similar to what you are now going through) he voiced his feelings/complaints and by your own account you "have been a jerk to him" ...acting like he had to earn your love.....well maybe he doesn't give a shit about bruising a couple boundaries ...or telling a couple of lies. He may feel nothing he will do or say would be or could be as threatening to your marriage as what he had to endure because he knows his feelings right now.....about her....he sounds afraid to really explore this as if he were single because he know himself and the situation ... This girls not his type ....etc....he's not just down playing it for you but for himself as well. To me that's the warning shot .....With the" right " girl and right circumstance the word Love will be used ...in conjunction with sex ...nre will rear it head ...and your coping skills will really be tested.

I bet the kids and family weigh in this more than you know.... right now ...absent that wonderful NRE...

So has he done some wrong things....yes ....do they spell disaster ?...maybe but I don't think we're there yet....the key is does he see "the wrong things" and if so does he care???? that's what you need to find out.

I do understand his guilt in those first encounters ...its as if you broke the commitment to your spouse....and it should show you how committed he was to you and the family.

My advice relax a bit the sky might not be falling ....and if it is fix it then. And what ever you do ....NO self medicating ...that's a sure way for this to go sideways.

Start thinking about the bright side of things ...

... it should free up more time for Butch.....the pressure you wanted off will be off....A happy sundance ...etc

Good luck and take care D

PS they now believe Butch did not die in Bolivia ...came back worked and died Washington state...penned a book about their exploits.

Last edited by dingedheart; 08-23-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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