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Old 06-22-2011, 04:46 AM
escapewheel escapewheel is offline
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Default Resentment post fallout

In need of a little outside insight.

My wife (JL) and I have recently gone through a rough time in regards to my first emotional connection outside our marriage. Being new to this I have made numerous mistakes. Hell we all did. Its been a month since things ended with NG and I and the resentment and hurt are still very strong.
What the core of it all boils down to is how JL and I deal with forgiveness. Early on in my friendship with NG, but after the connection was made, things were said by NG that JL took as an attack on JL and my relationship. Turns out JL was right but at the time I did not identify them as such. I knew the things NG said and asked were based on completely erroneous information and so I moved on with the thought that I would correct her incorrect notions. I forgave her in JLs eyes. In my eyes it was just a misunderstanding. JL on the other hand does not forgive easily (ever?).
At this late date whenever the resentment pushes us into an emotional conversation it always turns to JL telling me that I betrayed her by taking NGs side rather than becoming angry and dismissing her from our lives. "If SV (her current and long standing BF) would have said those things I wouldnt have hesitated to be rid of him". She does not forgive.
My problem is that even now, with NG out of my life, she is looking for me to be angry at NG for the things she said. Im not. I dont know how to be. I understand why she said them and I forgave her for it, as JL puts it.
How do I find a way to be angry at NG? JL tells me "you would go back to being friends with her in a second if I said you could". If there was forgiveness of bad blood all around, Yes, I probably would. I have never said that to JL but she is right and she knows it. I do miss having a friend with a connection like that. NG and I never had a physical relationship. We have hugged maybe half a dozen times in the last nine months if that counts.

So how do a long standing couple(~20 yrs) recent to poly and with two totally different approaches to dealing with people resolve resentment between themselves?

note: NG came along during the time I was coming to grips with JL and SV having a connection and was the person that opened my eyes to what JL wanted and needed from SV. There was a lot of jealousy and other baggage dropped by me at this point. I have not felt even a pang of jealousy in regards to their relationship since.

deffensive mechanisms of the players involved.

JL Impenetrable wall of eff off
NG lashes out with poisonous comments
ME forgiveness?
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:09 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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I'm not sure I follow exactly, so correct me if I am not getting it.

It seems to me that everyone should mind their own business. Your relationship is no one elses business but yours and the person you are in it with. It might drive other partners crazy, but they will just have to deal. They are not you and you are not them and the best they can do is just offer you their opinion IF you ask for it.

By doing this, it ends a whole shit load of drama and baggage that is not worth carrying. It keeps pain and hurt at bay also as the lines/boundaries of what "stuff" everyone owns and is a part of is clear. Seriously! In poly, there is really no time for other partners shit when it comes to your relationships with others... you are your own person and so are they. Live like that (independently) and stop playing a role in created drama.

I suggest you smile sweetly, acknowledge it drives her crazy and that she wishes you thought like her. It sounds like the only thing holding you back is your partners anger.... listen to her, tell her you are okay with it and ask her to work on dealing with it because you miss your friend and would like to see her again. She likely will hit the roof, and then you can wait a bit but stick to your guns and be calm and firm that this is how it will be...you will see her again if your friend agrees. After she has time to deal with it for a day or so (calmed down from the immediate outburst that might occur), call your friend up and arrange to meet her or at least say hi via email or whatever. Just get in touch.

If you are going to be working on this poly thing, then you have to work on standing up for your independence and right to follow what you think is right for you... not what others think you should do and definitely NOT what others demand. Not only that, you could teach her a big lesson in what happens when you forgive others, just by being you and being an example of what forgiveness does to the soul in terms of peace and harmony in life.
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  #3  
Old 06-22-2011, 06:13 AM
escapewheel escapewheel is offline
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Part of what you said jives with another thing that keeps passing through my currently muddled mind. It is our own decision who we like/love and also the currently dawning realization that we really dont even have a choice in who we love anyway, we just DO

As far as independence goes doesnt the primary partner have at least some say in who the other partner choses to be with. Doesnt the term primary indicate that the other partner, in the established couple, have some degree of veto power?

My final mistake that caused THE END:

JL and NG had been talking extensively trying to work on NGs rather extensive issues. JL still claims to not be her friend yet they talked possibly more than NG and I did. Due to a thyroid issue and just needing some time without NG and I on her mind JL NG and I went to dinner and layed out an agreement. We were to stop talking for six months to a year and then revisit our relationship. We all agreed and left happy and satisfied. JL was in the first good mood I had seen in months. Two days later NG and I spend half the day chatting online about a movie she had recommended. I told JL that we had. By that night she was so upset and hurt that I thought she was going to leave me. She had tried very hard to accept NG into our lives but found she could not, she spelled out exactly what she needed for the immediate future from NG and I in order for her to maybe accept NG. In two days I ruined all that. Thats how things ended and I accept my part in it all and the repercussions to include never talking to NG again.

What I cant figure out is what she needs from me in order to forgive me.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:18 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escapewheel View Post
As far as independence goes doesnt the primary partner have at least some say in who the other partner choses to be with. Doesnt the term primary indicate that the other partner, in the established couple, have some degree of veto power?
No, that is not something necessarily involved with being a primary. Such a restriction is typically established by folks new to poly based on their fears of a partner simply running amok and getting involved with somebody really trashy. Once folks trust their partners to have reasonable taste in whom they date, it disappears.

Quote:
In two days I ruined all that. Thats how things ended and I accept my part in it all and the repercussions to include never talking to NG again.

What I cant figure out is what she needs from me in order to forgive me.
She obviously can't trust you right now. To find out what she needs, you're going to have to ask her. And as it appears she has some issues that she needs to deal with, it may be that you need to see a counselor together to sort it all out.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:36 PM
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The thing with boundaries is that when they are broken, then its obvious they don't work and its time to renegotiate them. Your boundary isn't working, so rework it. Take the emotion out of it and rework it. Otherwise I seriously wonder if you are going to be able to functionally be poly.

Listen, this what I see; you have a friend that you are tight with. You want to spend time with her, you don't have a sexual relationship but you enjoy her company. Some shit happened and now you've all agreed to not see each other for a year. Its not working, you broke the boundary. Your partner is angry about that and you feel bad. Time to rework the boundary no?

Take a look at that and read around here a bit. I don't mean to say that your feelings are not valid, but a lot worse goes on here than what you are talking about. Have a look at some cheating threads by doing a tag search on "cheating." You are an angel by comparison! She could have a lot worse! She isn't going to be able to do poly if this is something she can't get through.

Sorry, but it seems a bit controlling and over exaggerated to me. Her feelings might be hurt but she also seems to be manipulating you over this. Partners that use veto power tend to be like that I have noticed. Rather than giving some rein and accepting they do not own their other partners and believe that they are going to make mistakes and stumble sometimes, they decide that every little thing is a deal breaker and every little thing should be controlled by them. Partners with veto are more like doms and those that follow are more like subs. Do you have a dominant and submissive agreement? I suspect not.

Primary does not equal ownership. It usually means that the two are together due to financial obligations, children, shared assets, etc. Anyone who comes into your life is equal and should be treated as such. The amount of time and involvement you have with them is all negotiable, but their worth is just as much as a partner you have been with for some time. Veto is disrespectful to a new persons rights to have love, commitment, comfort in knowing they are worthy of respect.

I suggest you look at some threads with the tag, "foundations," "lessons," "veto" and "secondary" by doing a tag search. Look at the secondary bill of rights thread for one. It seems that you've got some work to do on understanding how it can work better for you. I suggest your partner read too. The two of you seem to think that its always going to come down to her ruling the show, you feeling guilty and whomever else just being a pawn in that. At some point I think there needs to be a balance of independence, and consideration for everyone.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:38 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
No, that is not something necessarily involved with being a primary. Such a restriction is typically established by folks new to poly based on their fears of a partner simply running amok and getting involved with somebody really trashy. Once folks trust their partners to have reasonable taste in whom they date, it disappears.



i thought it was out of fear of their partner finding someone "better" and leaving the relationship. Many of those stories on here where partners have "veto" or "rules" about who they can date tend to come from a place of one partner deciding they are poly and the other partner being taken aback and reluctantly agreeing to "try" it.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 06-22-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:04 PM
escapewheel escapewheel is offline
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Autum, trashy may not be the right word but you nailed the essence of it.
I think the word JL would use is dangerous . Im running up against the "i want you to have this but not her" thing. I did manage to pick the one woman we know that JL had bad blood with.

JL tried very very hard to get past her prior history with NG but ultimately could not.
It didnt help that limerance was running fast for me while time for jer was going very
Slow. I know what that feels like! Ultimately, in regard to JLs bf i was able to release my codependance with JL and allow her to follow her own path with him. Being rid of the jealousy feels GOOD ! I feel more like two longtime friends now rather than the rigidly tied together married codependent construct thing.

I do need to be able to respect her boundaries.

Pepper, ty for the search reccomendations
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:49 PM
escapewheel escapewheel is offline
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At the time I met NG I was working on being ok with SV but did not understand some fundamental things. One of which was the if she loves him she has to love me less thing and the why am I not enough for her thing.

That was about nine months ago and A LOT has happened since. Including my dropping the hangups that came with being raised, and buying into it completely, mono.

I tend to believe peoples outward persona. NG was very good at presenting a desirable person to me. She was also the first person since I met JL to show obvious interest in me. The way we met was when NG asked JL at a party if she could pursue me. JL and SV were at the party and obviously a couple.

The next day we contacted each other in email. I said I was flattered but that I wasnt interested in a physical relationship at the time. From my side that was the first and only mental jaunt down the physical path. We talked about tools and music and interesting wiki chains, things of that nature. Within about a week the emotional connection was established and the NRE thing took hold. At that point I was assigning much higher values to the good things that were happening and far too low values to the bad indicators.

Even prior to poly landing in my lap I had been looking for a friend with similar interests. Finding myself in a possition to also make emotional connections I found a new friend. Life was looking pretty good from my perspective.

During a discussion of why JL and NG didnt like each other NG asked me if I knew about an ex BF of hers and JL having had sex. She played it up as something that she knew about for a long time but was bothering her now that she was talking with me so much. This knowledge was the basis for NGs dislike of JL for so long. JL had never talked to her directly and just thought that her demeanor was just someone who was a bitch. JL took the question as an atomic bomb thrown into our midst. (Turns out much later that JL was right, NGs motivations in asking that rather dangerous question were less than honest.) I didnt react at all and figured with more accurate knowledge of each other the obvious misinformation and resulting opinions of each other could be rectified.

Right here is where all the problems started. JL expected me to side with her and all I did was tell her I think youre wrong about NG.

After an explosion, during a time I had told NG things were over, JL and NG start talking directly. NG asks JL to help her. JL does. Lots of progress was made with NG. Eventualy JL allows me to begin talking to NG again. Nothing really happens wrong between NG and I but JL is starting to be bothered by us again. This is when the dinner and the one year break comes in and where I ruin it all by not being able to just stop talking cold turkey even though we agreed to.

NG and I both betrayed her trust here. For NG this will be forever, for me at best it looks as if will never go back to the way things were. In twenty years I had never hurt JL. First time out and look at the mess.

As far as gender roles in forgive and forget we dont seem to fall into the common categories. I forgive very easily (almost automatically) and forget rather quickly. She neither forgives easily nor ever forgets.

I will definitely read Freetimes post. TY for the recommendation.
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:59 PM
escapewheel escapewheel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I'm not sure I follow exactly, so correct me if I am not getting it.

It seems to me that everyone should mind their own business. Your relationship is no one elses business but yours and the person you are in it with. It might drive other partners crazy, but they will just have to deal. They are not you and you are not them and the best they can do is just offer you their opinion IF you ask for it.

By doing this, it ends a whole shit load of drama and baggage that is not worth carrying. It keeps pain and hurt at bay also as the lines/boundaries of what "stuff" everyone owns and is a part of is clear. Seriously! In poly, there is really no time for other partners shit when it comes to your relationships with others... you are your own person and so are they. Live like that (independently) and stop playing a role in created drama.

I suggest you smile sweetly, acknowledge it drives her crazy and that she wishes you thought like her. It sounds like the only thing holding you back is your partners anger.... listen to her, tell her you are okay with it and ask her to work on dealing with it because you miss your friend and would like to see her again. She likely will hit the roof, and then you can wait a bit but stick to your guns and be calm and firm that this is how it will be...you will see her again if your friend agrees. After she has time to deal with it for a day or so (calmed down from the immediate outburst that might occur), call your friend up and arrange to meet her or at least say hi via email or whatever. Just get in touch.

If you are going to be working on this poly thing, then you have to work on standing up for your independence and right to follow what you think is right for you... not what others think you should do and definitely NOT what others demand. Not only that, you could teach her a big lesson in what happens when you forgive others, just by being you and being an example of what forgiveness does to the soul in terms of peace and harmony in life.
Howdy Pepper, In reading the seconds bill of rights I found this line: "When I am in a relationship with one person, I am in a relationship with all the other people that person is involved with, especially the primary partner(s)--even if there is no romantic connection between us! If I am resented in any way by them, that resentment serves to undermine the secondary relationship and keep it from being 'real'. It creeps into the rules that are created and the definitions that are set in place."

This is more how I feel things should be rather than everyone following their own desires exclusive to the other parties involved. I believe my current partner should have a say in things. SV while still developing in the relationship IS a part of the family and I respect his place in the decisions that need to be made. It probably helps that he and I have become friends.

Going at this in a manner in which you do what feels right to you but at the expense of another partner doesnt seem right. seems like theres something emotional lost there.

If Im wrong please correct me, I am new at this after all.
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