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  #31  
Old 06-23-2011, 09:37 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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It's time to have the fluid bond talk with Romeo, Knight and yourself. Search for fluid bonding and you will find much here, including my own stupid tale - the thread is called "Fluid Bond Mistake".

SW and I miscommunicated and had unprotected sex. I did not get pregnant and we did not test positive for STDs. But that was SHEER DUMB LUCK. Either of us could have been lying about our STD statuses or just unaware we carried a disease. And pregnancy was unlikely but not impossible. Let me repeat: SHEER DUMB LUCK.

Beloved, my wife, was hurt by my carelessness. And worried for my health. We worked through it and are doing well but she is not going to forget it. (Fortunately while she may not forget, she does forgive - one of many reasons I love that woman.)

Anyway, Romeo may be doing the manly thing of covering up hurt and worry. Your NRE-induced lack of safe sex and his reticence/joking may be damaging your relationship. So talk things over with Romeo and Knight and come to an agreement about safer sexual practices. Do you want to be fluid bonded with either or both partner? It sounds like you are de facto fluid bonded with Romeo.

Discuss what fluid bonding means to you specifically. Is it using condoms during intercourse but not during blowjobs? What about dental dams when you are getting oral sex? When to use gloves? How often do you get tested? Does the fluid bond/safer sex guidelines change when one of you adds partners? How to handle safer anal sex?

Yes, it's time to learn to love the latex - or latex alternatives - for you and your guys. Squeaky sex is nothing compared to burning, itching crotch - and it gets worse from there. And lube easily removes the squeak. Make it a game - how many different condoms can we try in a session? I bet your guys will love having a 'goal'.
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  #32  
Old 06-24-2011, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
This is just stubbornness and a bit of deliberate ignorance, I think. There are hundreds of brands of condoms for all different shapes, lengths, and girths of penises, and in all types of thicknesses (hello, ultra-thin, anyone?), and with a variety of ribs, dots, colors, whatever. Buy an assortment and find which ones you like best. Lube helps with friction. Make friends with lube, it's fun and pleasurable to use. It's not only your own life you're playing fast and irresponsible with, it's your beloved's too. There are good prices to buy assortment packs online (undercovercondoms.com is one place, drugstore.com has some).

It isn't funny. If you're going to be open or have poly relationships, you've got to use condoms. It takes a long time and a great deal of trust to go without. Not using condoms because you have this idea that you hate them is simply childish and unrealistic in this day and age. I know I might come off sounding harsh, but it's tough love. Ya gotta wake up and grow up.

Thwack! (that was me smacking you in the head)
Ow! Thanks for the thwack, I needed that. You're absolutely right, of course.

I have lube, I guess I'll just bring it over. My body's been cooperating so far in lubing itself up (thanks, NRE) so I haven't felt like I needed it, but I hadn't thought of it possibly helping with the condom usage.

I really appreciate the tough love. I can be sensible in a lot of ways, but for some reason this one's a weak spot.

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Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
It's time to have the fluid bond talk with Romeo, Knight and yourself. Search for fluid bonding and you will find much here, including my own stupid tale - the thread is called "Fluid Bond Mistake".

SW and I miscommunicated and had unprotected sex. I did not get pregnant and we did not test positive for STDs. But that was SHEER DUMB LUCK. Either of us could have been lying about our STD statuses or just unaware we carried a disease. And pregnancy was unlikely but not impossible. Let me repeat: SHEER DUMB LUCK.

Beloved, my wife, was hurt by my carelessness. And worried for my health. We worked through it and are doing well but she is not going to forget it. (Fortunately while she may not forget, she does forgive - one of many reasons I love that woman.)

Anyway, Romeo may be doing the manly thing of covering up hurt and worry. Your NRE-induced lack of safe sex and his reticence/joking may be damaging your relationship. So talk things over with Romeo and Knight and come to an agreement about safer sexual practices. Do you want to be fluid bonded with either or both partner? It sounds like you are de facto fluid bonded with Romeo.

Discuss what fluid bonding means to you specifically. Is it using condoms during intercourse but not during blowjobs? What about dental dams when you are getting oral sex? When to use gloves? How often do you get tested? Does the fluid bond/safer sex guidelines change when one of you adds partners? How to handle safer anal sex?

Yes, it's time to learn to love the latex - or latex alternatives - for you and your guys. Squeaky sex is nothing compared to burning, itching crotch - and it gets worse from there. And lube easily removes the squeak. Make it a game - how many different condoms can we try in a session? I bet your guys will love having a 'goal'.
I'll look up your thread, thanks. I'll talk to Romeo and Knight about fluid bonding... it's such a new concept to me, but then, so is poly. Did you mean sit down with them separately and talk, or all together?

I know it's never 100% certain that a contraceptive works, but I'm very confident I won't get pregnant from this encounter, since I have an IUD. But yeah, I do understand that I'm putting Romeo and myself at risk of STDs since we're still waiting for test results.

You're probably right about Romeo covering up. I need to smack myself out of this NRE stuff for a bit and talk to him again. I know he has a tendency to gloss over the stuff that really bothers him, so I need to take special effort to have a real discussion about it.

What fluid bonding means to me... good question. I'd thought of it as just penis-in-vagina sex with no withdrawal and no condom. All these other things you mention hadn't occurred to me. In my rather limited sexual experience, I'd never bothered with a condom/barrier for any of them. Condoms for oral sex? I guess swallowing's off the table... GLOVES? For what? For fingering? Wow, I'd never even thought of that. I don't know if I could do that. I blame porn. I love porno sex. (I'm being goofy here. I get goofy when I'm awkward.)

OK, OK, I'll buy a smorgasbord of condom varieties before anything else.

Thanks for the feedback, you two. I really do appreciate it.
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Last edited by vixtresses; 06-24-2011 at 01:18 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-24-2011, 05:09 PM
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I'll look up your thread, thanks. I'll talk to Romeo and Knight about fluid bonding... it's such a new concept to me, but then, so is poly. Did you mean sit down with them separately and talk, or all together?
...
What fluid bonding means to me... good question. I'd thought of it as just penis-in-vagina sex with no withdrawal and no condom. All these other things you mention hadn't occurred to me. In my rather limited sexual experience, I'd never bothered with a condom/barrier for any of them. Condoms for oral sex? I guess swallowing's off the table... GLOVES? For what? For fingering? Wow, I'd never even thought of that. I don't know if I could do that.
It's really important that everyone involved knows exactly what the safer sex agreements are. I learned the hard way that fluid bonding can mean different things to people. As long as you and your guys come to an understanding, and everyone is on the same page, it doesn't matter if you talk to them individually or together.

Also, it's critical to realistically assess risks. Planned Parenthood has good basic information (www.plannedparenthood.org) on all sorts of sex related topics. The San Francisco City Clinic has a great list of various STD risks of transmission for different sex acts but look at their site in general - lots of great information: http://www.sfcityclinic.org/. Yes, some of it is scary to learn. Read anyway.

I don't mean to imply that safer sex means that you have to use everything above all the time for all sex acts. In fact, I rarely use gloves anymore because I and my partners agree that our risk is low. You and your partners decide what is fluid bonding. It can be PIV w/o withdrawal or condoms. Also, you may want different practices with Romeo than you do with Knight. Maybe you fluid bond with Romeo but use condoms with Knight. Or vice versa. There's nothing wrong with that - again, as long as everyone knows, understands and agrees.

Just think about what you and your guys do, the level of risk everyone is taking, and what level of risk you are willing to accept (when rational, not high on NRE or other drugs, or in throes of passion). Also try to develop agreements that you are likely to keep. Rules that are often broken are useless and keep no one healthy. If you truly can't stand condoms, then your only safer option is to fluid bond with your guys and that assumes that you, and they, are always faithful. And from what you have written, that huge step may be a bit soon for some of your relationships.

These can be awkward, hard, and weird conversations to have with lovers. But they are critical and can lead to greater intimacy. I learned much I did not know about my partners - our actual practices, our assumptions, and beliefs around sex. Keep thinking and talking - you'll be fine.
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  #34  
Old 06-24-2011, 05:58 PM
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OK, talking I can do. Fluid bonding is a new concept to me (only heard about it recently when reading about poly stuff here), and I'd have to explain it to the guys, too, so it's not like they have any preconceived notions of what it is. More likely there are preconceived notions of normal safe sex practices, and that's where the differences are going to be.

I'll try and give it a decent shot with condoms. The particular ones we used were new to Knight, he'd chosen them because they said "ultra-thin" and he figured there'd be more sensation, but instead they were very constricting and essentially cut off bloodflow and the majority of the sensations for him. He did say he knew of others that worked better for him, so we'll try those, and probably some other varieties just in case.

This probably sounds stupid, but I'm having a hard time coming up with the reasoning myself for using a condom after our royal fuck up last night. We've gotten tested. Once we get the results, assuming we're in the clear, what's the point anymore? We've already exposed ourselves to each other's fluids (well, precum, anyway, he did pull out). I don't know how I'm going to nail condom use down as law if I'm having a hard time with it myself. I don't know what we're protecting ourselves from if we're already exposed, if the results come back clean, and I have a relatively permanent and no-brainer form of contraception in place. Not arguing, just... help me think this through?

Yeah, fluid bonding would be a really huge step this soon in the Knight/I relationship. If we're just talking about PIV sex with no condom, no withdrawal, that didn't happen even between Romeo and I until only a year and a half ago or so, when I got my IUD. We were bare backing with withdrawal for practically our whole sex life together, though. We started out using condoms, but we stopped using them probably within a few months. We kept on using them intermittently (trying to "be good") for a long time after that, but we finally gave up and accepted the fact that we both really didn't like condoms.

As far as the whole "heat of the moment" decision making goes, hmm. Actually I need to really look at the way I operate under those conditions. I really have a hard time saying no. I tend to look at sexual situations as very vulnerable conditions for both parties, and I go out of my way to avoid making the other person uncomfortable, to the point of compromising myself. (Yes, bad. I know. I'm trying to think this through here.) There was a one-night stand situation years ago where I ended up letting a guy have sex with me because I'd said "no" when he was giving me a massage and his hands strayed to my breasts and he asked if I wanted him to stop. I didn't mean to agree to have sex with him, but I could tell that's how he took it and I didn't want to embarrass him by stopping him once his intentions became apparent. Now, I don't see what happened between Knight and I as similar, because I DID want everything that we did and more, but I do need to be aware of my difficulty with boundaries all the same. I just don't really know what to DO with that awareness.
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:08 PM
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OK, updates. First off, we're taking condoms seriously, despite my whiny bitching in the previous post. My therapist on Friday delivered a nice WHACK to the head also (thought you'd like to know, nycindie) when I brought Romeo in to my appointment and we explained the situation. She sort of drove home the points that were already brought up here.

Actually, now we're ALL using condoms, which kind of really sucks, but well... I screwed up. I didn't use a condom with Knight that first time, and that exposed me AND Romeo to a pretty significant risk. My city is rampant with STDs, I've heard something like 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 for different diseases around here. So, to minimize the risk I've brought to Romeo's and my bed, we're also now using condoms, at least until the test results come back, possibly longer.

I presented that option (starting to use condoms) to Romeo, but also told him that while I will absolutely not pressure him NOT to use condoms with me, I also cannot promise that I'll influence him TO use them, since I'd much rather NOT use them. So... yeah. He decided to go with condoms for the time being.

On the Knight front.... well we're using condoms. And they're still not working. Well, I guess I should rephrase that. They work REALLY well for preventing pregnancy and STDs by preventing ejaculation. At least in this case. We tried three different kinds. Some had more success in allowing a maintained erection, but all failed in the sensation part. I know that's not all there is to sex, but it's a pretty big part of sex...

Anyway, Knight is fine with whatever I decide. He insists that sex isn't necessary, and that other forms of physical affection are more important to him anyway. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

In other news, Romeo called off our engagement yesterday. He wants us to go back to being boyfriend and girlfriend, for two main reasons. First, this (seeing other people, polyamory) isn't what he meant when he proposed. The symbol of the engagement ring and calling me his fiancee lost some kind of meaning to him. Second, he is still totally on board with polyamory and feels that he is more likely to find an interested partner if he is somebody's boyfriend rather than somebody's fiance. He said it might be different if we were already married, but being engaged is a sort of transitional state that complicates things and will just make it too difficult to find somebody. Given the first point, getting married right now wouldn't fix that. So... we're boyfriend and girlfriend again.

I'm not too happy about it. OK, I'm really not happy about it. And I told him as much, but I respect his decision and understand his reasoning. I am glad that he's verbalizing his feelings about something so important to him, because he does have difficulty with expressing his feelings about things. My therapist says that I have a very direct and assertive way of expressing myself, and Romeo tends to be more non-confrontational, so it's really easy to end up in conversations where I'm bulldozing straight for the heart of the matter and Romeo will pretty much shut up and agree to/with whatever I'm saying. Or if he even gets as far as expressing an issue with something I'm saying, he'll try so hard not to hurt my feelings that he doesn't get around to really saying what he means.

Guess we're getting down to the real stuff now. I told Knight about the called off engagement. I worried that he would think that he's causing problems in my relationship with Romeo, and he did seem to think that, but I hurried to reassure him that it wasn't about him. I just felt that it was right to let him know.

So... that's where we are today. Let's see where we end up.
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  #36  
Old 06-28-2011, 12:40 PM
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This'll probably be really rambly. I'm not even sure what I want to say.

I'm feeling sort of heartbroken right now, which is silly, because I haven't been dumped. I'm still with Romeo, Knight and I are still whatever we are, and all should be well.

Breaking off the engagement is really taking a toll on me. It really hurts. I worry that Romeo is gearing up to leave me. He has said so many different things, trying to explain where he's coming from... some things sound contradictory. I really don't like it. Romeo said at one point something like "OK, we can go back to being engaged if you want", but... it's not the same. It would be forced, it would be something he's doing to make me happy, not because he wanted it, and that in itself would not make me happy.

Why am I hurting this much over one stupid title? I must have given the title a different meaning than Romeo. To him, being engaged to be married is incompatible with non monogamy. To me, neither being engaged or being married is incompatible with non monogamy.

To me, going from being engaged to being boyfriend and girlfriend is a huge step backwards in a relationship, and I am very skeptical of the strength of a relationship moving in reverse.

He acknowledged last night that part of what influenced his decision was my failure to insist on condom usage that time with Knight. I can understand that. I just don't know what to DO with that. Just let time pass, I suppose.

I don't know what to do with my hurt. I cry each time Romeo and I talk about this breaking off the engagement thing. He asks if I'm OK, and I say I'm OK. He asks what's wrong, and I say he knows what's wrong; we've already talked about it. The whole discussion starts over and we rehash his reasons for breaking off the engagement and my reasons for hurting over it and not wanting to break off the engagement, and I start crying when I start expressing how worried I am that I'm losing him.

He has tried reassuring me that he still loves me and isn't leaving, but I still feel the same. I guess maybe we just need to lay that topic to rest for a bit, because I'm going to create the feeling of a tumultous relationship if I keep crying every time we talk.

Another facet to what's bothering me is the fact that Romeo stayed out late on Sunday night, the day that he told me he wanted to break off the engagement. He didn't tell me he was staying out late, he didn't tell me where he was going or who he was going to be with until he got back home in the wee hours of the morning. He told me then that he'd been with a girl we know. She needed support because a friend of hers had committed suicide. Obviously, I understand her need for support in these circumstances, and I don't think there's anything wrong with him doing that, but under these particular circumstances, I felt like he was going off to connect with another girl and he was leaving me out of the loop about it. My biggest concern with that is the fact that he didn't stop and text me or call me. That, and the fact that it was so soon after breaking off the engagement, and I had told him that I would likely need extra reassurance that he's still in this relationship... It just stings.

I guess what the status of "being engaged" meant to me was a promise to stay together. Being "boyfriend and girlfriend" doesn't carry that promise, to me. So now I'm worried that once the going gets a little rough, he'll just bail, cause I'm just his girlfriend.

I need to change my perspective or something. Or just stop thinking about it and talking about it. I don't know.

I feel bad that my pain over this is going to affect my relationship with Knight. I don't know how to keep my pain from having a caustic effect on whatever it is we've got blooming between us. I really felt like Romeo and I were in a good, strong, healthy place, which should be healthy for what I've got with Knight, but now I don't feel like Romeo and I are in such a strong place. It feels shaky and haphazard and scary.

I don't know if I'm supposed to keep quiet about what's going on with Romeo when I'm with Knight, and vice versa, or if I'm supposed to be constantly updating them both on where things stand since it concerns all of us.

At this point I guess I'm worried they'll both leave to make room for one another in my life, and then I'll have neither, when I wanted both.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:00 PM
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Why am I hurting this much over one stupid title?
I agree this would hurt. It sounds like he is not as OK with the situation as you thought and he feels the need to pull back and de-investing himself.


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I don't know what to do with my hurt. I cry each time Romeo and I talk about this breaking off the engagement thing. He asks if I'm OK, and I say I'm OK.
Don't say your OK if your really not.


Quote:
I guess what the status of "being engaged" meant to me was a promise to stay together. Being "boyfriend and girlfriend" doesn't carry that promise, to me. So now I'm worried that once the going gets a little rough, he'll just bail, cause I'm just his girlfriend.
This may very well be where he is at, maybe not. If not, discuss possibly a new label that gives you both a better sense of where your relationship stands.


Quote:
He acknowledged last night that part of what influenced his decision was my failure to insist on condom usage that time with Knight.
I can see how this would have made him feel that you were willing to risk his well being for your own immediate gratification. To tell you the truth, I was a bit offended at your seeming ambivelance to the whole condom issue. He may have thought he was OK with it at first and the more he processed things the more bothered he got. Part of the problem is that it is never just ONE thing. He is probably thinking if she is willing to take that risk, where else will I just be tossed asside? This will not be fixed overnight and you will probably have to do alot of work to make up for it and change how you approach things.


Quote:
I really felt like Romeo and I were in a good, strong, healthy place, which should be healthy for what I've got with Knight, but now I don't feel like Romeo and I are in such a strong place. It feels shaky and haphazard and scary.
So, now you found a few weak spots. Stop take a breath and work on the weak spots before they become a great big giant whole that can't be repaired.

Last edited by SNeacail; 06-28-2011 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:04 PM
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I didn't go back to re-read, but I do recall in your earlier posts that you mentioned Romeo thought of poly or non-monogamy as a temporary thing until you guys get married. You expressed a little unease about that, but perhaps you put some blinders on and didn't really want to address his position on it, when you were all excited about having another relationship in your life.

Well, hon, here it is smack-dab in your face. Whatever we resist (or avoid), persists!

It looks like Romeo thinks of non-monogamy as some kind of extra activity, recreational, fun, non-serious, that you agreed to do until it's out of your system. Then he didn't like how it went down with Knight and he feels that you aren't ready for being engaged and working toward building married life together. In his eyes, you just want the fun. So, he's like, "okay, forget the engagement, she's not serious about it."

It seems to me that you both need to sit down together and have a serious talk about how you define all the things you want in life, what being non-monogamous truly means to you, what marriage means, and how you can come together in the middle and see if you can find a compromise that will make you both happy, or at least satisfied. Perhaps you should take a break from Knight until it all gets hashed out, I don't know. Maybe not -- maybe Romeo needs to see that you can have more than one guy in your life and still be committed to him at the same time.

But instead of focusing on "why are we not engaged anymore," focus on "how do you envision our lives together unfolding?" and "what do you want for the future?" and "what is most important to you?" Things like that.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 06-28-2011 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:27 PM
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Vix,

*Hugs*. You have had a lot on your plate lately. Second, kudos to you about using condoms with your guys. That is not easy. And keep trying different brands with Knight until he finds one with enough sensation for ejaculation. I've heard from some men that masturbating with a condom is a good way to train themselves to come with a condom on. (Homework for Knight!)

I am so sorry that the engagement is off. That is hurtful. But here is the part you may not be ready to read. Romeo was being a responsible partner. If he cannot see a clear vision of married life with you (whether poly or not), or feels there are some major issues, then he was right to hit the pause button.

From what you have written, I seriously doubt that he loves you any less, or that he wants to leave you. Bluntly, if that was the case, he would have just left rather than breaking the engagement.

Not using condoms with Knight likely brought some stuff up for Romeo that you and he will have to figure out. It is a betrayal - an unintended one but a betrayal nevertheless. (Been there, done that and got the shitty t-shirt on this one.)

This is where your different styles of handling emotions, issues, may make things more difficult. For example, Beloved is always 10 steps ahead of me emotionally - she's just much faster at knowing what is going with her. So she's scoped out the issue, thought through various solutions, and figured out how to proceed just about the time I've figured out I'm sad. I've discovered that I need space away from her to know what's going in my head. If the issue is a big one, then that means physical space but usually mental or emotional space is enough.

If Romeo is telling you contradictory things, it's possible it's because he is figuring things out as he goes, on the fly, without having enough space to put a full picture together in his head of his concerns. I know when I go through this process it's a unholy mess - not straightforward or coherent in any way - until I get a handle on things. Breaking the engagement may be a Romeo's way to get space.

If this scenario seems plausible to you, and only you and Romeo would know, then you may have to do something very hard and painful. Sit on your emotions, your thoughts, until Romeo has sorted through some things and is ready to begin working through things with you. And this will alllow you to do your own sorting out - it may be helpful to be less emotional when discussing breaking the engagement with him.

I am not suggesting that you never discuss your feelings and emotions about the engagement with Romeo. Do you have someone else you can talk over the pain of ending your engagement? I would not suggest Knight be your confidante about this - he needs to be in the loop - but talking through the engagement issue with the person that inadvertently 'caused' the issue, is awkward at best and potentially really damaging to you, Romeo and Knight.

This is not as coherent as I would have liked. I lost my first version but hopefully it's helpful.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:33 PM
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This is where your different styles of handling emotions, issues, may make things more difficult. For example, Beloved is always 10 steps ahead of me emotionally - she's just much faster at knowing what is going with her. So she's scoped out the issue, thought through various solutions, and figured out how to proceed just about the time I've figured out I'm sad.
Oh, I can so relate...
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