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Old 06-23-2011, 06:25 AM
Mari Mari is offline
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Default Errm not sure where this one goes!

Well, it's been a while since I've popped in here and life's certainly been 'interesting'... And this is with regards to people we know rather than I and my husband!

The good thing is that we're certainly talking more. I'm waiting to hear when my appointment with a counsellor is so that's a positive. Although there are some stresses - other half's work contract has ended and he's looking about for something else so in this current climate that brings many stresses things were looking ok.. Personally for us I feel that although we're having a few moments its looking positive on a relationship front. He's clear now at what stage I view something as dating so we've discussed how he'll respect that and discuss with me. I've still got to actually get out to meet other people - it's early days, we're not actively looking for anyone else at present, but should something happen for me, it might actually be a good idea if I made some friends!

I was wondering, are there any on here who are Pagan and in a group? Just that the 'interesting' is linked to a situation which has cropped up. We've dealt with it as we saw best as we feel that trust has been broken. Sadly not only in a 'spiritual' way but also in an old friendship which I feel has gone. Someone who we thought we knew of many years, seems to have become someone different with no focus. He seems to be putting sexual relations to be at the forefront of a relationship rather than the emotional and waiting and not having instant gratification. Actually in this 'situation' we have lost two people both in a spiritual and friendship way. There is anger and frustration as we've been blatently lied to as well and others have been asked to lie and been put in a very difficult situation.

Anyway, still reeling about it all - it all exploded this weekend...


Mari
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  #2  
Old 06-23-2011, 11:56 AM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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There are definitely quite a few pagan people around here, so I'm sure they will poke their heads in.

However, you're quite vague in your description, so you might not get very helpful advice. You may wish to pop a few more details in.

Sorry for your "situation" and losing two friends.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:01 PM
Mari Mari is offline
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Yeah, sorry about the vagueness, I suppose I just wasn't sure if anyone would understand..

Dunno if I'm looking for advice as such, although it's always welcome as sometimes getting other's perspective is useful.

The crux is - 2 people we know got together. We had an inkling something was 'going on'. The female is definately not in a poly relationship. The male feels he's poly but never been in one and it has been some time since he's been in any relationship, and longer still since sex (which he puts great emphasis upon). His previous 'relationship' wasn't healthy and he didn't look at getting help after it and even now seems really closed on the idea of 'helping himself' via counsellor etc (I know, nothing I can do on that). Around the time they got together, he asked to return to the 'church/group' to be part of it and we talked upon a timing on that. This was, in my opinion maybe a time to privately tell either of us that they might be together, not because it's our business but for the sake of the 'church/group'. Especially taking into account that all relationships go through changes and things can get difficult. Anyway, her 'husband' didn't know what she was doing and I don't think he does unless she's finally told him the truth.

Part of the major problem is nothing was said until everything came out after the ritual/celebration for him to return to the 'church/group'. He'd broken up with the 'married' woman and so she had come to the celebration with anger and pain due to him breaking up because of getting together with someone else in the group. Thus the newer members were very confused and this has meant that one of them now needs to be able to feel she can trust everyone else in the group again, this will take work and I feel, this could have been possibly avoided/worked through if people had been truthful. Both of us feel betrayed and also angered that 2 other people in the group were placed in a very difficult position of having to lie to others.

Ahh sorry.. probably even less clear!


M
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:30 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Mari,

I can't figure out what is going on. So two friends of yours got into an ill-advised relationship and then their baggage/issues - whatever they were - affected the pagan spiritual group? Is that the situation? And what are your questions? Why would this mess be your issue?
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:45 PM
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SourGirl SourGirl is offline
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Interesting to see, that regardless of what the denomination is, any church can still feel obligated to stick their nose in, and judge how people run their private lives.....

So, lets be a devils' advocate here :

Basically, I am trying to figure out, what business is it of yours between these two people ?

So.... the guy likes sex. A lot. That is not a crime. I know very little about pagan, (on purpose) but it would seem to me, that everyone has their own 'journey' in life. On that, most of us would agree.

If he wants to build relationships better with the churches help, then he is looking for guidance, not for judgement, scolding, and parenting. Did he sign on, to have friendship withdrawn, the minute you don`t agree ?

The woman involved, ...unless this 'spiritual' group, is going to pick up their pitch-forks and go inform the husband, it really has no right judging how they(church) were kept in the dark, until after the fact. If you want to advise, encourage, and counsel her to talk to her husband, then that is support of a spiritual kind. If you want to again, lie in judgement and ostracize, that would not seem very kind to me.

Or, has he asked you to lie for him ? Has she ? If it were that, I think you would of mentioned being angry, and being asked to do such a thing.

'Friends' can and should, make their own mistakes in life. There is a difference between having a opinion, and being opinionated. You don`t have to encourage things you dont believe in, but you can still have a friendship. Still be supportive, and still have a opinion, without sticking your nose in business that isn't yours.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:01 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mari View Post
The crux is - 2 people we know got together. We had an inkling something was 'going on'. The female is definately not in a poly relationship. The male feels he's poly but never been in one and it has been some time since he's been in any relationship, and longer still since sex (which he puts great emphasis upon).
Their business.

Quote:
His previous 'relationship' wasn't healthy and he didn't look at getting help after it and even now seems really closed on the idea of 'helping himself' via counsellor etc (I know, nothing I can do on that).
His business.

Quote:
Around the time they got together, he asked to return to the 'church/group' to be part of it and we talked upon a timing on that. This was, in my opinion maybe a time to privately tell either of us that they might be together, not because it's our business but for the sake of the 'church/group'.
Nope. Their business.

Quote:
Part of the major problem is nothing was said until everything came out after the ritual/celebration for him to return to the 'church/group'. He'd broken up with the 'married' woman and so she had come to the celebration with anger and pain
Her problem.

Quote:
Thus the newer members were very confused
Not their business.

Quote:
and this has meant that one of them now needs to be able to feel she can trust everyone else in the group again,
Her problem.

Quote:
Both of us feel betrayed and also angered
Your problem.

Quote:
that 2 other people in the group were placed in a very difficult position of having to lie to others.
I don't see anybody being forced to do anything, based on your description.

I can say that y'all seem to be up in everybody else's business in a dysfunctional fashion. I'm guessing that you're part of a Wiccan coven and wonder if that's normal for all such. I know that questions of "who is involved with whom" have no bearing on rituals with the pan-Pagan congregation I attend (nor in the recon groups and druid groves and so forth of which I'm aware), so it's not "a Pagan thing,' though it may be a Wiccan thing.
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When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:59 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Their business.



His business.



Nope. Their business.



Her problem.



Not their business.



Her problem.



Your problem.

The thing i can't stand about you the most is the way you beat around the bush and take forever to make your point.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:32 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
The thing i can't stand about you the most is the way you beat around the bush and take forever to make your point.
'Tis a bad habit, I'm told.
__________________
When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2011, 06:32 PM
Mari Mari is offline
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ooops, sorry, really, really didn't want to come over either a) judgemental or b) like we're interfering in people's lives.. Really not what we do, ever, and we would never, for example stop someone dating anyone etc. I've probably worded things very badly. My sincerest of apologies for that.

Who people date within or outside the group is non of our business. We're genuinely happy if people are happy and in happy relationships.

We were never and would never inform another person's partner if someone was having an affair - that is their thing to do. Their business. If it is someone inside the spiritual group - again none of our business - it only can become so if it affects things when we're doing a ritual - i.e if focus and trust is lost. It's a bit like at every single service going to church there's the priest being 'somewhere else' mentally and going through the motions, the choir sitting thinking of what they're having for dinner and not doing their job etc etc. If everyone's got their mind on the job at hand - none of our business, you can do what you want - date as many or as few as you want. Nothing to do with us at all. I was going to say that maybe a medical situation might change that, but I can't think of any medical situation where that could be the case in this.. There's no real point in someone being there if they're staring daggers at someone on the opposite side, the person next to them is not sure what to do as they know why this is so but can't do anything because they've been told in no uncertain terms that they can't, and so in turn feel uneasy. Then others who don't know anything at all are loosing their focus on what they're doing as they're in turn standing about wondering what the 'elephant in the room' is. You have to intrinsically 'know' that everyone's got your back. It's trusting and knowing that we're all in this together? If that makes any sense. If there isn't that and you can't trust someone to act like a grown-up, then why be there? It'd be like inviting people that you know full well can't get on to a dinner party and watching them seethe at each other. Not have a full on fight but one of those situations which then becomes really uncomfortable for everyone else there. As a good host, I don't need to know that they are dating or have dated, just need to have some idea - even if it is "I just can't stand so and so any more" then the host either, goes "to hell with it" invites them anyway and works with what happens, decides on who to invite (not necessarily something I'd be happy with as that would almost look to one or the other like taking sides), or say, look I obviously can't invite you both to this, how about it being a raincheck for you both and I'll plan something another way another time? Probably not ideal either but possibly gives them both time to work out their differences if they can. If it's a big party - no problem, its their choice to be at the same venue but have ample space and people there to be able to avoid each other if that's what they want to do, however, if it's a small dinner party and they know that this is an issue and they can't be amicable then why attend? Others then end up hearing about something you didn't want to be originally known.

So, yes, essentially we're not interested in the intricacies of people's relationships, we generally only care if it affects whatever we have going on at the time which might need everyone's focus for at least 1/2 hour. If they can't manage putting aside their personal issues with each other for that time then it makes things extremely difficult, especially if there are only 8 people in total in a place and other times the maximum of about 10.

With regards to the sexual thing about the guy - sorry again for my probably not being terribly clear. I don't care about how much he wants or how many times he has sex, or again how many people -none of my or our business. We really don't care. Obviously he and those he is with are grown-ups and how safe etc they are is their own business, their responsibility. I suppose my concern was seeing one friend feeling pressured too soon whilst he was able to have sex as much as he wanted with the first woman. So, maybe I was being a tad judgemental in that I couldn't understand why he couldn't just wait for the one wanting to go slower. Sadly, he was a dear friend, he has gone through so many changes (yes, don't we all in life), but seems to be doing stuff almost as retaliation to the bad relationship he was in a few years back.

Maybe rather than being betrayed etc what we're really feeling is a deep sense of loss and because it's all so recent and blew up all in one night we're still just reeling from it as everyone knows we just wouldn't go and tell people's partners or tell people you should do this or that - after all, there for the grace and all that.

Oh crap, see, guilty of not being clear and putting forward a different thing and really not realising that by writing things as I did, I was sounding one way..

Sorry if it's offended anyone, just trying to see clear. Hate the lies - I asked the two first ones a while back - 'is there anything between you guys?', not in a judgemental way, just that I'd seen them kissing and initially I just put it down to 1 drunken night - I certainly wasn't 'oh what where you doing?' I saw them, gave them space and just asked in a non-agressive or forceful way, just asked if there was an attraction etc and I was told no, whilst another who would never see them together was told that they were going out together but to not tell me as I'd tell her husband. I just don't know. See, going round in circles, I suppose what I really should do is just leave things as they are and wait and see. We never asked or told people to step away from their spirituality, just to do some of the work that they can do for learning solitary with guidance and to maybe organise some picnics etc over the summer and other events so that others can feel comfortable with them again, and they could refocus. What would have been the situation is that probably sooner rather than later they would have got to a stage of being able to 'work' as part of the team but they just didn't want to take the steps to do so - they were never told that they couldn't contact others or anything like that. We wouldn't do that, we just said that doing things that required 100% of your focus if you know that your focus wasn't going to be there was pointless to attend. If there was a situation where someone was ill, their kid was ill or other things which would affect their focus for specific things, we'd say, hey, stay at home, look after yourself, take care of the kids/family. I just hope that if things come out at home for her with her husband that they can work through things and their kids aren't too badly affected by it.

Really sorry, hard to explain and really didn't want to come over judgemental which I'm not. Must work on my communication skills, been a really wierd week. Our friend who was asked to keep the secret he didn't even 'need' to know has just come out of long surgery and is in recovery from having a mastectomy. It's strange going from what's happened earlier in the week to this which we all worried about but are at the same time blissfully happy that he's becoming more himself and getting there.

Maybe you can forgive my wooliness and general all-over-the-placeness as I try and work through all of this.

I'll go and stick my head in the freezer, have some chocolate and try to find some balance. Sorry once more.
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2011, 06:42 PM
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Derbylicious Derbylicious is offline
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They are both grownups and need to deal with this themselves. If they can't get over it for the sake of the group during a ritual maybe they should both be politely asked not to come until they have worked out their issues. Otherwise it's really none of anyone elses' business what they do.
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