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  #91  
Old 06-18-2011, 11:44 AM
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I'm trying to reconcile spiritual beliefs with polyamory at the moment.

How do you reconcile Jesus supposed words 'man and woman becoming one flesh'? (it's something like that I can pull out the exact verse if need be).
Jesus is made to quote Genesis, where Yahweh creates Eve from Adam's rib.

Matthew 19

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When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea...

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Context, context, context. Quote mining is always a big FAIL. The Pharisees were wondering about Jesus' opinion on divorce in that current time. A divorce, for a woman at that period, was pretty much a death sentence, or at least a quick ride to prostitution to keep body and soul together. Women had no power, couldn't own property, and were not able to remarry after divorce. This was actually a protective, pro-woman statement. Divorce in Judea was easy then: tell your wife, "I divorce you," and it was done.

Digging deeper, the original Genesis statement refers to the heiros gamos, sacred marriage, a perfect balance of yin/yang. The first being created by Yahweh was a hermaphrodite, split in twain by surgery.

Now look at the bit about being a eunuch, celibate. That's OK as well, according to the author of Matthew. For men! Women had no choice but to marry, or live forever as a second class citizen in her brother's house.

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The other biggie for me is Jesus likening a couple to being a pair of yoked oxen. As a mono in a mono/poly relationship this is a problem for me and others in similar situations. The more elements you add to into a relationship the more difficult it is to maintain an even yoking.
Of course there are plenty of marriages in the Old Testament that were polygynous. Take that into consideration as well. Don't quote mine and flail, read the whole darn book!
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  #92  
Old 06-18-2011, 01:26 PM
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Thanks for explaining that Magdlyn. I always forget about context. But still I think that the "one flesh" statement seems a bit like over-kill if it was only supposed to be used to prevent unfair divorce.

I'm certainly not going to read the whole bible, if that's what you meant, so maybe I should just leave the whole of Christianity alone. I thought I had done that but I'm doing the 12 steps of AA and it is quite difficult to do that without getting caught up in Christianity.
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  #93  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:21 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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so maybe I should just leave the whole of Christianity alone.
Ahhhh yes, a very wise idea likely


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I thought I had done that but I'm doing the 12 steps of AA and it is quite difficult to do that without getting caught up in Christianity.
A lot of otherwise well meaning groups have been saddled with religious underpinnings. The trick being to pick what is solid logic & science and just ignore the propaganda. It IS possible.

GS
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  #94  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:33 PM
serialmonogamist serialmonogamist is offline
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Thanks for explaining that Magdlyn. I always forget about context. But still I think that the "one flesh" statement seems a bit like over-kill if it was only supposed to be used to prevent unfair divorce.

I'm certainly not going to read the whole bible, if that's what you meant, so maybe I should just leave the whole of Christianity alone. I thought I had done that but I'm doing the 12 steps of AA and it is quite difficult to do that without getting caught up in Christianity.
People are free to pick and choose parts of any philosophy to learn from, regardless what others may tell them about it being wrong to do so. Ultimately, individuals construct their own personal philosophies from the things they read, experience, and think. If they choose to do this by adopting the most orthodox possible interpretation of a particular religion or sect they can muster, that is their choice but it is not the only one. Please don't let an all-or-nothing attitude toward any philosophy prevent you from freely exploring and developing your own personal beliefs through learning about others' beliefs/ideas as part of your process.
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:35 PM
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"A lot of otherwise well meaning groups have been saddled with religious underpinnings. The trick being to pick what is solid logic & science and just ignore the propaganda. It IS possible." GS

I have sort a deeply connected spiritual experience for a very long time (through nearly every channel available to me)and never found it until of all places through AA. Solid logic and science don't do it for me. Sifting through teachings and working out what is right for me and what isn't is part of my process. I don't think I can dismiss all of Jesus possible words as being propaganda but neither can I leave my brain at the door and accept everything that is taught as part of Christianity.

@serialmonogamist - Thankyou
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  #96  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:34 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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"One flesh" is also just another phrase for sex. You can see this in 1 Corinthians 6:16 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.'"

Like many parts of the Bible, pick your beliefs and you can find a Bible verse to back you up. (Murder is the only exception I have found. However, who to kill is wide open.)
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  #97  
Old 06-20-2011, 06:14 AM
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Thanks Quath. I think I will just leave the bible alone, way too confusing if you aren't prepared to do intensive study.
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  #98  
Old 06-20-2011, 12:39 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I have sort a deeply connected spiritual experience for a very long time
Same here. But I left Chrisitanity when i was 16, exploring the ways various cultures experienced the divine instead. I was informed by Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age and Wicca. I didn't feel ready to do an intensive Bible study until I was in my 40s.

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Solid logic and science don't do it for me.
Science and logic have their place. But they only go so far. Psychology, philosophy and theology can also inform us on how to live better healthier lives in our short time on this planet.

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Sifting through teachings and working out what is right for me and what isn't is part of my process. I don't think I can dismiss all of Jesus' possible words as being propaganda
Pro-pagan-da. For the pagans. Romans used orthodox Christianity for empire building, serving a form of this religion to consolidate the "Holy Roman Empire," to keep their formerly pagan subjects firmly in line with Pope and Emperor, and later, King. Of course, Xtianity stems from earlier pagan religions and shares many themes. Later, northern European beliefs were syncretized with the Middle Eastern teachings of the Bible. Many holy Christian shrines and churches are built on old pagan holy sites. Even Christian holidays are usually set on important pagan dates, Xmas, Easter, Candlemass, St John the Baptist's day, All Saints Day, etc etc.

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but neither can I leave my brain at the door and accept everything that is taught as part of Christianity.
Xtianity is a belief system based on myths from 2000-10,000 years ago. Why would anyone believe any of those myths literally today? However, there are universal truths written in the various books of the Bible which can be useful to understand mankind's attempts at making sense of life. There are threads in the Bible going back to beliefs of ancient Babylon, Egypt, Canaan, Persia and Greece. Most of the Old Testament is a polemic against Goddess worship (Asherah and Astarte) and later, political protest against Greek rule. The New Testament is about Jesus and his followers protesting Roman rule, and in the later books, infighting between gnostic Xtian thought (seen as heresy) and orthodox thought. The Revelation of John was just one "Revelation" screed among many of the day, but the only one included in the canon. It wasn't accepted as part of the canon until the 16th century AD.


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Thanks Quath. I think I will just leave the bible alone, way too confusing if you aren't prepared to do intensive study.
It is confusing, but it all becomes clear when you get certain vocabulary and understand context.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #99  
Old 06-20-2011, 01:21 PM
serialmonogamist serialmonogamist is offline
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Xtianity is a belief system based on myths from 2000-10,000 years ago. Why would anyone believe any of those myths literally today?
I think the most radical belief in Christianity is that individuals can have God's will directly revealed to them through the Holy Spirit. That idea gets dogmatized and chanted and people fail to think about what it really means, which is that individuals have the ultimate authority to know God. This includes the authority to know what sin is and confess directly to God.

If you look at all the negative feelings toward Christianity, I think you'll find that it's usually people angry about someone else's definition of what constitutes sin or not and who gets to decide how they're supposed to live. Really, consulting God directly though prayer is the only true way for Christians to address their questions. They can talk to each other, share their insights, and tell others when they think they're making mistakes but what it really comes down to is that they are honest with themselves about what they know is wrong and that they make an honest effort to live well.

I think the Roman authorities and so many others through history have used the Christian ideas to promote external authority systems simply because many people can't grasp the idea that individuals can be their own ultimate authorities where communion with God is concerned. People also have trouble distinguishing between listening to others for insight/advice and having to obey them. Really, Christianity is not about obedience, though imo, no matter what anyone or any church might have led you to believe.
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  #100  
Old 06-21-2011, 02:52 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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Be careful of listening to God (or thinking you are). Sometimes the results are humorous like in God's Busy Schedule. Or horrible as seen in the stories of Peggy Ross, Latisha Lawson, LaShaun Harris, etc. These people killed family members because God told them to. While mental problems seem to be an obvious blame; how can you tell if someone who listens to God is mentally ill or not?

If you hear God physically, then I think it is more likely you have dissociative identity disorder, schizophrenia or you are listening to your own inner voice. The easiest way to help you decide is to ask that voice a question that you do not know the answer to. For example, ask what the lottery numbers will be right before they are called out. God should know. You don't. If there is no answer or you get the wrong answer, then I would suggest getting help.

I don't mean to sound attacking of other people's beliefs, but I worry when people say they can hear God.
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