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  #11  
Old 05-15-2011, 09:13 PM
stille stille is offline
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hi all,

its called slutwalk because (quote from their website, http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/):

On January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”.

We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault. "


I think thats quiet a good thing to ask for.
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  #12  
Old 05-15-2011, 09:22 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact. I'll put it out there..dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut. That's the current reality...there are bad boys/men out there.
I don't know the specifics of the rape that resulted in the slutwalk movement. It may have been a stranger rape. But most rapists know their victims. A women's rapist is often someone they know, sometimes well, sometimes someone they love. A friend, boyfriend, acquaintance, co-worker.

I've bolded the sentence above because this reads to me like sluts are to be raped. If one acts like a slut, then one is available to be raped. I've been reading this board for a while and given your other postings, I seriously doubt this is what you meant.

The brutal truth is that women can't stop rape. It doesn't matter what women wear, where we live, etc. Women can and do take precautions and while that helps on an individual level, it's still a crap shoot. One can do everything 'right' and get raped or take insane risks and come through unhurt.

Most men don't rape but I bet those good guys know someone who has. I do not statistics to back this up. But have you (not you specifically Mono but all the guys on the board) heard someone talking about a sexual encounter and wondered, was that really what happened? Thought it sounded a little off?

Until other men make men feel shame for rape, then rape will continue at the epidemic level it is now.
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  #13  
Old 05-15-2011, 11:20 PM
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I definitely did not mean to imply that women who dress like "sluts" are to be raped. I do believe that they can be expected to be judged and viewed a certain way...the judgement will most likey from other women.
I've seen a lot of stuff in a lot of places and I admit that I've looked at some situations that skirted sexual assault and thought "she was asking for it". Women and men both need to assume responsibility for stetting the stage for problems in some cases.
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Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 05-16-2011 at 12:18 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2011, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Women and men both need to assume responsibility for stetting the stage for problems in some cases.
Please don't flame me for this analogy.

I'm having a barbecue. I invite over 25 friends, we head out to the apartment pool, have a few drinks. I leave the door unlocked so my guests can get inside to pee and whatnot. Occasionally, one of them will leave the door ajar.

This is not an invitation to come in and steal my computer. In fact, under American law, it's still breaking and entering, whether you pushed the door open or broke the window. You're still a thief, either way. I invited my friends into my house, left it unlocked for them--this in no way constitutes "permission" to steal my stuff.

Now, on the other hand, if I want to absolutely avoid having my computer stolen (let's pretend I have a semester's worth of notes on it, and no backup or something), I should probably lock my door and ask my friends to keep it locked.

This does NOT change the fact that anyone who steals my computer is a dirty rotten thief who's entirely to blame for my lack of computer, and, indirectly, for my failed classes!

Now, this begs questions about the commodification of sex, sex workers' rights, etc., but I'll stop now.
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2011, 01:10 AM
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Now, on the other hand, if I want to absolutely avoid having my computer stolen (let's pretend I have a semester's worth of notes on it, and no backup or something), I should probably lock my door and ask my friends to keep it locked.

I think this is a great analogy actually. The problem is; how cautious do we become at the expense of freedom? And yes...their are terrible people out there who don't give two cents about your rights as a human and would just as soon hurt you as they would tie their shoes. Not just men, but women too. That is reality. I can chose to ignore that or chose to balance my actions based on that. Men get assaulted as well, we all have to be cautious at times. There are lots of ego driven guys who are just looking for a reason to kick the shit out of someone...again it becomes a matter of knowing what can trigger some one to target us and avoid it.

Total-Awareness-Womans-Safety-Book


This is a great book that deals with safety for women. I trained with the author for four years and him and his wife are committed to educating women about how to not become victims or targets. I'm just adding this in case anyone is interested..it's not a plug.
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2011, 01:21 AM
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Self defense classes are always wise, regardless of your gender or clothing choices. If you're gonna dress like a slut, you should probably know how to stab a man's eyes out with those stilleto heels.
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2011, 02:06 AM
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I heard the whole police officer comment before, and think it could be heard two ways. The police are theoretically there to defend us, keep us safe, inform us. So when we hear information from them it could be seen as for our own interest and protection. The voice of authority on what the news on the street is.

The thing is that some people have not been treated well (or have heard others who have been treated well) by the police and have no confidence in the information passed on. They will see information as negative and to be untrusted no matter what the intention is coming from the police. That is real and valid for them.

So what to do? I think that it is important to pass on messages to the public in different ways and with a certain attitude. Saying, "if you dress like that, you are going to get raped you stupid slut," is different than giving information like "hey, there is a rapist around right now that targets women dressed _this_ way," or "it is thought by some men that women who dress _this_ way are sexually available regardless of verbal consent." All in the delivery of the message no?

It was unfortunate that the officer in question became emotional about the situation and was frustrated that some women don't seem to get it. There are some people that would love to tie it all up in a nice little bow just how they would like in order to make the world *perfect.* That is a human trait no? I think the officer in question needs some stress leave and a course in approaching the public or something. I don't everything about it perhaps there is more to it... but from my outside perspective this is my thought at the moment.

If nothing else the whole thing has caused people to talk, talk is good, debate is good, questioning is good; even titties on the streets of Toronto is good... I'm sure a lot of men/people enjoyed the display and all "walks" that occured after, but not necessarily because of the confusing message it sent, but because there were titties on the street!
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  #18  
Old 05-16-2011, 07:04 AM
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This whole issue is about much more far-reaching than how slutty a woman dresses. Rape is usually never about sex, or sexual gratification of the rapist. Though it may be fueled by sex, rape is always about power, dominance, and control.

As long as society continues to devalue women's contributions, autonomy, and sexual freedom, while it continually encourages men to feel entitled to be in positions of power, certain men will try to knock down women and put them "in their place." Rape.

As long as a woman is looked at askance for expressing her truth, such as wanting to be sexual, or perhaps not wanting children; as long as she does not have control over her body; cannot choose abortion or birth control without someone saying she is doing something wrong or immoral; or as long as a woman is prevented from moving up in the workplace and when she does still makes less than what a man would make in the same position; as long as the churches still promote the Madonna/whore image of women; as long as we still have fucking beauty pageants; as long as women are objectified; as long as girls and women are taught to be catty and compete with each other for the affections of males; as long as mothers are considered non-sexual beings; as long as menopausal women are told their sex drive is dried up; as long as people still believe there is such a thing as frigidity; as long as the media sexualizes little girls; as long as advertisers use sex to sell products; as long as sex is not spoken about in "proper" social situations; as long as children are kept in the dark about what sex and sexuality is; as long as women are taught to think they are freaks for wanting sex; for wanting independence; for wanting to be in powerful positions; for wanting the same rights, autonomy, consideration, salaries, and sexual expression as men; as long as men and boys continue to see women and girls as in second place behind them; as long as prostitution is illegal and considered a criminal act; as long as society still feels shame over bodily functions and sex; then things like rape and sex trafficking will continue to take place.

It has nothing to do with wearing heels, a short skirt, and a low-fucking-cut top!

The way to stop rape is not to teach women self-defense (I don't mean they shouldn't learn it, but that this is backward thinking); the way to stop rape is to teach our boys and men, and society as a whole (because there are plenty of women who need to learn it too) to fucking cherish and respect women for all of who they are: vibrant, sexual, sensual, intelligent, capable beings who are equal to men and have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want and walk down whatever the fuck street they want at whatever time they fucking want without being in danger.
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Last edited by nycindie; 05-16-2011 at 07:44 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-16-2011, 05:46 PM
Isaac Isaac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
This whole issue is about much more far-reaching than how slutty a woman dresses. Rape is usually never about sex, or sexual gratification of the rapist. Though it may be fueled by sex, rape is always about power, dominance, and control.

As long as society continues to devalue women's contributions, autonomy, and sexual freedom, while it continually encourages men to feel entitled to be in positions of power, certain men will try to knock down women and put them "in their place." Rape.

As long as a woman is looked at askance for expressing her truth, such as wanting to be sexual, or perhaps not wanting children; as long as she does not have control over her body; cannot choose abortion or birth control without someone saying she is doing something wrong or immoral; or as long as a woman is prevented from moving up in the workplace and when she does still makes less than what a man would make in the same position; as long as the churches still promote the Madonna/whore image of women; as long as we still have fucking beauty pageants; as long as women are objectified; as long as girls and women are taught to be catty and compete with each other for the affections of males; as long as mothers are considered non-sexual beings; as long as menopausal women are told their sex drive is dried up; as long as people still believe there is such a thing as frigidity; as long as the media sexualizes little girls; as long as advertisers use sex to sell products; as long as sex is not spoken about in "proper" social situations; as long as children are kept in the dark about what sex and sexuality is; as long as women are taught to think they are freaks for wanting sex; for wanting independence; for wanting to be in powerful positions; for wanting the same rights, autonomy, consideration, salaries, and sexual expression as men; as long as men and boys continue to see women and girls as in second place behind them; as long as prostitution is illegal and considered a criminal act; as long as society still feels shame over bodily functions and sex; then things like rape and sex trafficking will continue to take place.

It has nothing to do with wearing heels, a short skirt, and a low-fucking-cut top!

The way to stop rape is not to teach women self-defense (I don't mean they shouldn't learn it, but that this is backward thinking); the way to stop rape is to teach our boys and men, and society as a whole (because there are plenty of women who need to learn it too) to fucking cherish and respect women for all of who they are: vibrant, sexual, sensual, intelligent, capable beings who are equal to men and have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want and walk down whatever the fuck street they want at whatever time they fucking want without being in danger.

Thank you
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  #20  
Old 05-16-2011, 06:04 PM
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I had started a response to this thread and then kicked the power button on my computer by mistake (it must be Monday) so here we go again.

The flip side of the issue of police telling women that they are basically asking for rape by dressing like "sluts" is that it gives the impression that if a woman dresses conservatively that she is not at risk of sexual assault. This can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of vigilance to her surroundings.

Women shouldn't HAVE to worry about how they dress and shouldn't HAVE to be concerned about walking alone at night (or hell, even during the day). Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Sexual assault is a reality in our world. As such the police have a duty to warn women of the potential danger. But rather than victim blaming the better approach might be to reinforce staying as a group when out, not leaving your drinks unattended and letting someone know where you'll be and what time to expect you back.
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