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Old 05-14-2011, 10:37 PM
Isaac Isaac is offline
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Question SlutWalk

Anybody following the SlutWalk discourse(/controversy)? Thoughts?
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:32 PM
Eloise Eloise is offline
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Awesome. The statement of that officer that women wouldn't be assaulted if they didn't dress like sluts is a terrible stereotype and it puts the onus on the woman for the other person's reactions.
I think to myself "how terrible is that? That a police officer would say outright other people can't or won't help their reactions or actions because someone has a sexy top on? Are you kidding me?"
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Old 05-15-2011, 02:43 AM
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The reaction at my university is revealing.

On the one hand, a very large segment of the student body (mostly grad students) see it as a means of speaking out against patently unjust blame-the-victim mentality. It's an exercise in empowerment, and an expression of dissatisfaction with the attitudes held by many (though clearly not all) law enforcement and judicial authorities. No one asks to get raped.

On the other hand, a smaller segment, mostly younger undergrads, is seeing it as an exercise in blind sexual promiscuity. I think this, if anywhere, is where the movement's gone wrong: the title "SlutWalk," at least at my alma mater, has been taken, by some, as a license to engage in drunken, irresponsible, destructive sexual behavior--the kind that spreads disease and encourages college girls to gauge their self-worth based on the number of frat boys they sleep with compared with other women. That interpretation is an exercise in disempowerment, in women being redefined solely by their physical value to men. It's also dangerous as hell, on so many levels.

But then, there are people who will misconstrue any movement, regardless of the title. But the title "SlutWalk" is really begging for abuse.
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Old 05-15-2011, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloise View Post
That a police officer would say outright other people can't or won't help their reactions or actions because someone has a sexy top on? Are you kidding me?"
This is a hot issue for sure! We just recently had this talk again.

My perspective is pretty black and white especially in the issue of people being told they are making themselves a target.

Here is my thinking on this as unpopular as it is;

The people who perpetrate crimes against people are not normal, healthy or bound by social laws and respect for the rights of others. Therefore, if a known perpetrator targets a certain look or style of dress and that is clearly their MO, then it is the responsibility of police or any other knowledgeable source to inform people of that. It then becomes the individuals choice as to how to apply that information. If they choose to ignore the warning within the message delivered by police or a knowledgeable source, then they are assuming a greater risk then a person who choses to modify patterns or behavior that could potentially make them a target.

I don't like helmets but I know that it is safer to wear one. If the law did not make me wear one I would assume responsibility for my choice not to wear one fully knowing the risk involved. I can't hold the concrete responsible for smashing my head because it simply doesn't play by my rules. People who commit crimes are like concrete...hard and uncaring for the rights of their victims.

I'm not saying anyone should be able to tell a person how to dress. What I am saying is that people should be smart enough to make decisions based on the reality around them. The way a person dresses does not make a person a rapist...but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:04 AM
Isaac Isaac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I'm not saying anyone should be able to tell a person how to dress. What I am saying is that people should be smart enough to make decisions based on the reality around them. The way a person dresses does not make a person a rapist...but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.
Although it's too late, and I'm too drunk to respond to this whole thread in the length it deserves (maybe I will tomorrow), you miss a crucial and all too frequently missed point. The "us" you are speaking of doesn't actually include you and I. The "us" is women. That is what makes your line of argument support an inherently unjust system, the system we currently have in place. The "people" who should be able to make decisions based on the "reality" around them are women. We don't have to worry about this in this case. That is the difference between helmets and short skirts (although there are many others as well). Sexual assault and victim blaming are (almost completely) a gendered issue. The "reality" is that men (NOT all men, and NOT even most men.. but the huge majority of rapists are men) rape women (NOT only women, but mostly), and that rather than examining the culture that supports/condones this, and rather than telling men to stop raping women, we tell women to "make decisions based on the reality around them," to understand that it's not safe for them in certain situations and that they should 'protect' themselves. Personally, I don't enjoy living in a world where I can dress however I want, drink whatever and however much I want, walk wherever I want when I want, and talk to whomever I want whenever I want without the fear that I may be raped while women cannot. This, to me, is unjust, and telling women that "it behooves" them to "avoid the stimulus" perpetuates this injustice. (Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)

I hope this doesn't come across as a personal attack. I don't know you at all, and I don't want this to be a comment on your character in the least (simply for being on this board I imagine that you are mightily more respectable than many of the men I meet). I believe that men, all men, have a duty to really question our role in issues around sexualized violence, and to speak up whenever we see/hear things that contribute to a culture that condones this violence, and that blames women for bringing it on themselves. This is why I went on this drunken rant.

Love.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:54 AM
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Isaac, your drunken rants are so much more coherent and sensible than mine! Carry on!
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Old 05-15-2011, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
The "us" is women. That is what makes your line of argument support an inherently unjust system. The "reality" is that men (NOT all men, and NOT even most men.. but the huge majority of rapists are men) rape women (NOT only women, but mostly), and that rather than examining the culture that supports/condones this, and rather than telling men to stop raping women, we tell women to "make decisions based on the reality around them," to understand that it's not safe for them in certain situations and that they should 'protect' themselves. This, to me, is unjust, and telling women that "it behooves" them to "avoid the stimulus" perpetuates this injustice. (Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)
You brought up a great point - women will be assulted or raped regardless of what they wear or do. Women don't walk around asking to get assulted or raped - it comes to them in the strangest of locations - and without warning.

This may be hard to read, but I was molested twice as a child by two different male family members on two separate occasions in my life. We went to court for one of them. Both are dead now, and someday I'll take the journey to GA and AZ to 'piss' on their graves. Forever mark them as pedophyles for all to see. Then as a teenager after telling my teenage boyfriend to stop, he continued on for quite a long time until he was satisfied. This I consider non-consentual, too, because I feared he'd beat me if I pushed him off.

My point is that I don't think it matters what girls or women wear or do - if the man wants to push himself onto her, he will.

It is society who needs to focus on training the boys in school to become respectful men in society. And speaking first hand, I don't see that happening in schools in the near future at all. Adminstrators avoid it like the plague. They don't address the issues until after it has happened. Therefore, the responsibility is left to the parent(s), but unfortunately the parent(s) who aren't teaching their sons to respect women are the ones who weren't trained by their parents... and thus the nasty cycle continues...

The man might spend some time in jail, lose his job, his family, or face public embarassment, but it is the females who pay the lifelong price... depression, self-doubt, lack of self-worth, confusion, shyness, meeting the wrong partners, and participating in potentially unsafe lifestyles...

Only a strong, consistent support team with some sort of therapy provides immediate relief for the female - but it can never truly be erased from her mind - the man/men already did the damage...
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Old 05-15-2011, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
(Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)



Love.
RP , Derby and I talked about this just after I posted and I agree. When I look at this topic I do usually create a very specific rapist as an example..one that preys on a certain look and may not reflect statistical evidence. If the statistical information supports the idea that how women dress is not a stimulus then that should be just as wide spread as any other information. I don't see any personal attack at all


I think we do need to teach boys and young men to treat women with respect..and shit like popular music videos and a lot of objectifying porn are not helping the matter. I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact. I'll put it out there..dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut. That's the current reality...there are bad boys/men out there.
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Last edited by redpepper; 05-15-2011 at 08:35 PM. Reason: spelling.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:02 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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I can see valid points on both sides of what seems to be a 'debate' - which really isn't. Or shouldn't be.

A little common sense goes a long way in discussions like this and it's usually the first to get lost.

I agree that the manner of dress has only minimal impact on rape statistics. But oddly enough, the effect it can have doesn't end up necessarily being reflected directly on the wearer. The actual victim will likely be someone where the situation will afford the right opportunity. You can safely walk through the center of the mall with your ass hanging out and until/unless you step out the back door it won't matter. But some other poor, conservatively dressed gal that does step out back is just as likely to end up the victim.
All you can say is that you ( the sexy dressed person) potentially play some small role in that happening. It is what it is. You are neither solely responsible or completely innocent by adding to the tension that eventually "tips" that unbalanced person over.
The world is full of stimuli for that type of person. Eventually the tipping point will be reached.

Following, as Mon was attempting to point out, you can't toss a red marble in the center of a group of white ones and not expect it to get noticed. And 'noticed' with a potential rapist in the crowd is NOT what you want. So a little common sense can go a long way in protecting yourself. Do we LIKE it - to have to bend our personal preferences to the reality of the environment? Of course we don't ! But we have to also accept some personal responsibility for choices we make. If we want to walk the edge we have to acknowledge the risks.

I would be the last to look down on any gal because of her choice of clothing. But I DO question the logic behind it (as to appropriateness of environment). It IS a form of communication. What we wear IS a statement.
What statement are you trying to make - and why are you making it - here and now? It's back to the responsibility issue.
We DO have to take responsibility for the statements we make. It's just the nature of things.

GS
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:40 PM
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What was wrong with "take back the night?" Here we had it at a time of year where we had to wear coats, hats, gloves in order to stay warm! We would walk along and chant "women unite, take back the night." It worked for us, it made sense.

I don't get the "slutwalk" thing. It seems to be an excuse to walk around dressed like a slut, the message is lost on me. Women dress how they want and as a result attract what they want from that.... rape is about control, not how one dresses I think.
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