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  #491  
Old 05-10-2011, 11:59 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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I find it comical really. If I ever tried that "rant" on the anyone I love, I would end up beat.. then passed over to my mom, who would then proceed to beat me more. Then passed up to my father who is dead, and further beaten.. my dad was one of the most alpha men I know and even he knew he could only control himself.. *shakes head*.. (oh and i woud sooo deserve the beating too)

I can't believe conversations like that still exist today. And I can't believe people still put up with them. Outside of a M/s relationship (and even then it is questionable)... its total controlling chauvinistic bullshit.

Last edited by Ariakas; 05-11-2011 at 01:07 AM.
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  #492  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:15 AM
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KatTails KatTails is offline
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I knew that a few of you would take issue with the word "submit" (and you are all entitled to your opinion) but I was hoping that you would see the whole picture of what I was saying instead of that one word.

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Originally Posted by KatTails View Post
I have consciously and unconsciously done things to control their relationship and the impact it had on me. So - I have made the decision to submit to 2rings, to confront my fears and insecurities, and to allow life to happen instead of trying to control it. Its time I move on and find happiness in this new marriage and this new reality.

I have already started making the changes that I need to in order to move forward to a happier life: I've started exercising more regularly, being more aware of what I'm eating, started a new medication for my depression, I've started looking into taking a class and we start marriage counseling on Saturday.
This was about ME taking control of my emotions and how I react to issues regarding MG and polyamory. This was about ME making the changes in my life that I need to make in order to be a happier person. This was about ME consenting to "submit" to him in order for us to move on, repair our marriage and have a happy life together. He is NOT forcing me to do anything. I am choosing to do this of my own free will. He loves MG and wants her in his life. He also loves me and wants me in his life. I want and need him in my life and I wholeheartedly DO NOT want to get divorced. So - in order for all of us to get what we want, I have to accept MG in his life in a less controlling way than I have been.

As bitterborn so eloquently wrote in another thread (I replaced "she" and "her" with "he" and "him" to refer to 2rings:
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Originally Posted by bitterborn View Post
-[He] isn't mine. [He] has never been my possession, I don't own [him.] [He] has chosen to spend the last 12 years with me and [he] chooses to spend the rest of our lives together. The feeling of "it's my turn now", watching the clock, and sense of ownership is akin to a child refusing to share toys and either crying or lashing out at others when another child is playing with them.

-[He] is an individual, [he] is not half of me. We absolutely make a great team. But [he] is my equal not my alter ego.
Isn't this the whole idea of polyamory? I have tried to control what they do so that I don't get hurt - but I still got hurt. Not only did I get hurt, but my marriage was destroyed because of my need to micro-manage their relationship based off of what I could and couldn't handle - and again, it didn't work out well for me. So I have decided, by myself, with no pressure from 2rings - to change this way of thinking and instead relinquish my need to control what they do and don't do in their relationship.

Maybe a better or more accurate word would have been "surrender" as nycindie said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
On the other hand, there is surrender. When we surrender, we "give up," not in the sense of losing, but in the sense of becoming unified with what we are surrendering to. Surrender means acceptance as if it was your choice in the first place, as if the way it is is exactly what you want. It puts the focus on something bigger, greater than our own gratification or need to feel better. It is not about putting someone else in control. When we surrender to a circumstance in our life, or to the the truth of what is, we return ourselves back to what we are made of -- and with that, we feel more whole. By surrendering, we truly reclaim more of who we really are. However, one wouldn't surrender to another person, but to things like life, truth, what we have created in our lives, our independence, God (if you are a believer), or our greater spiritual self.

I found a quote by Brennan Manning, from a book called The Importance of Being Foolish: "But there is an essential difference between submission and surrender. The former is the conscious acceptance of reality."
Exactly! I am making a conscious effort to accept the reality of my life. That reality is that my husband does love someone else, does want that person to be a bigger part of his life and does, at the same time, still want me with him forever. The more and more I fight what is happening between them - the farther and farther apart him and I are becoming. I am not "giving up" myself, I am expanding my way of thinking and dealing with this situation.

He does not and will not "control" me in the way you are all thinking. I DO have thoughts, ideas, and opinions and I will share those with him when I see fit. However, I am now "surrendering" and choosing to pick my battles instead of sharing my thoughts, ideas and opinions on everything. Does that make sense? He is not going to tell me what to do, how to dress, how to feel or how to think. He is not my master - this is not a D/s relationship.

Since his "submit and you will win" post has been linked here - let me use that to point some things out. And remember - this post was directly written to MG because of issues they were having at the time with both of them needing to have control over everything. I have bolded and typed in red the points that I agree with and the reasons I am choosing to "submit."

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2rings View Post
You and I (MG) have been in what seems to be a power struggle, but really, the way I see it, it's just as much about trust. And that becomes a bigger problem when I begin to feel rejected because I feel you don't trust me enough give yourself to me. I think you get angry because you assume that I would try control you. I do understand it. Submission is a difficult position to adjust to when you're used to being ''in charge''. You are a forceful (see how kind?) personality, and there is no doubt that you rule the roost in all of your other relationships.
But that's never going to work with me. We will fight and make each other miserable until one of us decides to give up and walk away. That is not what I want. Here's my solution-

Submit, and you will have the power.


It boils down to this - I will happily give you the power that I'd never let you take. I know myself. I have tried to change. But I know that my stubborn, defiant nature will not allow me to submit to you. Submit to me, and I think you will find that I will happily turn things over to you.

KT gets it. In our relationship, I am dominant. But she is far from being a stepford wife. We work together well. When something comes up, it is almost always a joint decision on how to proceed, and more often than not, I defer to her wants/needs/opinion. Do I have what amounts to a "final say"? More or less. But it very rarely comes to that. Of course we squabble. Every couple does. But it generally works pretty well. I feel needed and trusted, and she knows that she is cared for and that her opinion is important.
From what I know - and please, MG, correct me if I am wrong - but this is the road that MG chose to take and from what I know - they have been getting along better as a result. Yes, I know they still have their issues and fights - but I do believe that things are going more smoothly between them than they were when he posted this. I'm not sure if this is something she has written about in her blog - but if she did, maybe that would help explain things. I am not going to assume to know exactly what goes on in their relationship.

I need to go get the kids in bed - so I will post this now - then edit or respond later if I need to. I don't feel like I have explained things adequately - I'm having a hard time putting thoughts in my head on the screen right now.
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  #493  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:27 AM
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KatTails KatTails is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
I find it comical really. If I ever tried that "rant" on the women I love, I would end up beat.. then passed over to my mom, who would then proceed to beat me more. Then passed up to my father who is dead, and further beaten.. my dad was one of the most alpha men I know and even he knew he could only control himself.. *shakes head*..

I can't believe conversations like that still exist today. And I can't believe people still put up with them. Outside of a M/s relationship (and even then it is questionable)... its total controlling chauvinistic bullshit.
Ari - you have "spoken" personally to 2rings on the phone, either text or voice (I'm not sure) and I know that MG has shared a lot with you - and from that, I would assume that you got a good feel for what 2rings is like on a personal level and not just what you read on here. He is a good guy, he's the first to offer help to anyone in need, he would give you the shirt off his back and he is the first to offer advice, encouragement and support to anyone - including you.

The very nature of my blog is to write of the problems I am having in relation to polyamory in the hopes of getting some advice, support and help. I have primarily written on here when things were going extremely bad and I was extremely angry and hurt. Not all of those emotions were 2rings fault - but that's how it came across. This has been a VERY emotional 2 years and I have definitely not been at my best. Neither has he. And neither has MG. We are all human. That one quote that he wrote, taken out of context and without understanding - would sound chauvanistic and pig-headed. But his intention, his meaning was lost in his tone and choice of words.
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  #494  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:48 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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The fact remains that those are 2Rings' words and no one else has put them there against his will or forced him to say something he doesn't mean. We have all read his words and can make up our own minds.

Some people may think I've judged 2Rings according to what you and MG have said about him, but the truth is, I judge everyone by their own actions, words, and behaviours, not by those of the people around them.

Good night Kat.
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  #495  
Old 05-11-2011, 01:06 AM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Yes he did lend a hand to me when I needed that gateway person into AA. Ys he does seem like a nice guy. I have texted and emailed for the record, he was a good resource in those beginning stages. It doesn't change my opinion of his opinion on control.

But it is.. Outright, impossible to be an independent person while submitting yourself to someone else. If that is what you want that's fine, i can't argue the point. Not my place. Bt don't try to paint it one way and call it something else.

You are either an independent person or you are not. If you want to be controlled in that way, then fine, again not my place. It seems like the easy way to me.

Bst of luck, my point in this hasn't changed since the first time I read it.. And it isn't different now. the way he describes control of another person is offensive to anyone who is independent. Especially some women I love dearly in life. My mother would rip him a new one with that kind of thinking. (he sounds like my grandad and my mother woud fight with him endlessly, kind of funny to think back on it now, poor old guy didn't know what hit him when my mom came into the family)
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  #496  
Old 05-11-2011, 03:47 AM
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ray ray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatTails View Post
. He is a good guy, he's the first to offer help to anyone in need, he would give you the shirt off his back and he is the first to offer advice, encouragement and support to anyone
I would like to point something out. I do not know 2rings so I merely offer this as food for thought and you can do with it as you will.

It is entirely possible for some to be

Good
Charming
Helpful
Supportive
Protective

And any number of decent qualities

in SOME situations, with SOME people

and in other situations

to be

Vicious
Controlling
Manipulative
Unreasonable
Cruel
Abusive

For instance, my mother heaped emotional abuse on me while treating my older sister fairly normally. She taught elementary school children and was very nice to them. So many people thought she was kind, caring and mature. She was like that to me sometimes too. But she could also be very different.

I don't know what characteristics 2rings has or the health/dysfunction of your relationship. This may apply or it may not. But your reasoning in the above quote doesn't stand with me. It's like saying that I can't eat a cheese burger because sugar is bad for me. The two aren't necessarily related. If you don't think 2rings is controlling then give us some examples of 2rings acting to support your independence.
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  #497  
Old 05-11-2011, 05:31 AM
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Morningglory629 Morningglory629 is offline
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Out of all of these latest posts- Ray your last couple of sentences make the most sense. I am glad someone thought to ask this of KT.
For me concerning the linked quotes of 2Rings, KT I will correct you in that he was talking about my feminist, independent views of which polyamory is now identified as one of my practices. It was not about me being controlling but rather direct and assertive. I would say I still am. i just pick my battles. And I think that is why he fell in love with me to some extent.
As far as your last few posts, I agree that you are articulating a desire to move forward. I truly hope that happens this time.
Btw thank you for inviting me to comment. My responses have not always been welcomed here.
I do not believe he has ever been abusive in anyway. I think that is the sad misconception here. I think he can be a loudmouth, opinionated jerk but only when allowed to be.
For the most part he is awesome.

Last edited by Morningglory629; 05-11-2011 at 02:28 PM.
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  #498  
Old 05-11-2011, 11:29 AM
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Good morning Kat!

I spent most of the last day reading these 50 pages. I can't give you any advice and I don't agree with lots of the advice you were given.

I have only the perspective of what was written on this blog so my following words are biased. I can tell you that the three of you are beautiful if you could see it from a magical perspective. If you had special glasses that filtered out the pain you would see the love there. Like me 2rings can be an ass, like me you can assign motives and emotions to actions and words that weren't intended, like me MG really wants everyone to be happy and it always seems to blow up in her face. Like me you all seem to hold on to the pain and keep it warm so it never dies.

But wow, the love there is enormous, the committment, the strength of the love needed to survive the rollercoaster yall have been on for two years. 2rings is still there for you, no matter now many times you hand him your rings and try to turn him into 1ring he comes back, no matter how bad it turned, he was still there. When the pain turned physical for him he was there. He is willing to go to a therapist with you. He does love you, if he didn't he would have ended his own pain. No matter the pain you felt, you were still there, no matter the fight you were there, no matter the times you walked away, you walked back. Every time you thought it had failed you found a way to try to fix it. You do love him, if you didn't you would have ended your own pain. And MG was there for him as well.

My god you are beautiful. Your love between you and husband is beautiful. Both of those things are true 50 pages, 2 years and one MG later.
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  #499  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:47 PM
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Thank you bitterborn. I know I needed the acknowledgement. I appreciate your time.
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  #500  
Old 05-11-2011, 01:15 PM
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KatTails KatTails is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray View Post
If you don't think 2rings is controlling then give us some examples of 2rings acting to support your independence.
The decision I made to "submit/surrender" to him was not made because he was controlling me to do so. He did not give me the "submit speech." He didn't force me to make that decision - I made it for myself. Now that's not to say he hasn't been controlling at various times over 20 years - but the same could be said for me. He may have and share his opinions - but when it comes down to it - I make my own choices and decisions. Part of my decision to "submit/surrender" was done to alleviate some of the fighting that has been going on recently. I am choosing to pick my battles instead of fighting everything he says. He does, at times, do the same thing for me. In our daily life - we do tend to make most decisions together. Sometimes one of us will concede to what the other wants.

How has 2rings supported my independence?

•he has encouraged and supported me iEn exercising and losing weight so that I can gain self-esteem and become more comfortable in my skin and therefor a happier, stronger, more self assured me.

•he has encouraged and supported me to find a hobby, take a class, to do something that I enjoy in order to get my own life separate from him.

•he has encouraged and supported me to do more things with friends.

•he has encouraged and supported me by helping me to confront issues that I have that have caused me to feel inadequate, inferior, un-loved, un-worthy so that I can start to love myself, and be a stronger, more independent woman.

•he has encouraged and supported me to see a counselor, get on medication (if I thought that would help me) and by agreeing to go to counseling with me to strengthen myself and our marriage.

•he has encouraged and supported me to become independent by encouraging me to try to find a man (or woman) who I'm interested in spending time with and possibly dating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterborn View Post
I can tell you that the three of you are beautiful if you could see it from a magical perspective. If you had special glasses that filtered out the pain you would see the love there. Like me 2rings can be an ass, like me you can assign motives and emotions to actions and words that weren't intended, like me MG really wants everyone to be happy and it always seems to blow up in her face. Like me you all seem to hold on to the pain and keep it warm so it never dies.

But wow, the love there is enormous, the committment, the strength of the love needed to survive the rollercoaster yall have been on for two years. 2rings is still there for you, no matter now many times you hand him your rings and try to turn him into 1ring he comes back, no matter how bad it turned, he was still there. When the pain turned physical for him he was there. He is willing to go to a therapist with you. He does love you, if he didn't he would have ended his own pain. No matter the pain you felt, you were still there, no matter the fight you were there, no matter the times you walked away, you walked back. Every time you thought it had failed you found a way to try to fix it. You do love him, if you didn't you would have ended your own pain. And MG was there for him as well.

My god you are beautiful. Your love between you and husband is beautiful. Both of those things are true 50 pages, 2 years and one MG later.
bitterborn - thank you for that! We do love each other very much. These last two years have been devastating for both of us. We are both worn out and drained from all the fighting. We have wasted 2 years of our lives and we'll never get them back. I don't want to waste anymore time. I want to enjoy my husband, I want him to enjoy me, and I want our children to feel safe and secure. I want him to be who he is, and to live and love as he needs. And I want the same in return.

I don't own him. He doesn't own me. It's taken me a long time to understand that.

And I agree with MG - she does deserve acknowledgement. These past 2 years haven't been easy for her either. But her love for 2rings has given her the strength to stick around.
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Last edited by KatTails; 05-11-2011 at 03:41 PM.
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