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  #11  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:29 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Hi Altea!
Glad to see you back. Don't apologise about not writing for so long, I live in the same situation. (I'm visiting friends just now so have - LUXURY!!! - Internet access several times a day.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
Redpepper one more time. I know there are always two sides. And I know I have definitely made also many mistakes. I don't know if he will want to write something here. But maybe I will ask him if he will do so.
I know this as well. In fact, the #1 theme that runs through all the stories that I write for children is: "There is ALWAYS another way of looking at the same events. And you should always respect the other person's right to think differently from yourself." But it's hard for us to consider his way of seeing this whole relationship if he himself doesn't share it with us.

My comments are to be read as if I believe that you're a decent person who is giving us an honest account of how she sees the situation. It would be clumsy if I prefaced all my remarks with the words: "If this is really true, then..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
I mentioned to him, that I write here sometimes and do research, but he seems not to be willing to participate here on his own. Though he likes me to tell him what I have found out.

I know we need time. Time and talking. But time seems to be something that makes him freak out. He says that he has been waiting already for quite a long time and that he feels pressure.
This sounds very much like he isn't willing to put any of his time or energy into caring for / working on / healing your relationship, but lets you do all that work, and then likes you to keep him up-to-date. Is he a pasha, a sultan, a basza? Does he want you to fan him with ostrich feathers, too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
It's hard for us making small steps. Maybe because we are both impatient and bad-tempered.
If you both want to save the relationship (and make it healthy), you might have to learn to get used to small steps. If your version of things is an accurate portrayal of his lack of:
a) interest in working on the relationship;
b) concern for your feelings;
c) common decency in how he treats you;
d) respect for you or for the other women he fucks...
... then I stand by my earlier advice: you should be making GIANT steps (away from him).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
And I was starting to be jealous becouse I didn't feel all that affection and stability I nedded.
I differentiate between "justified jealousy" and "unjustified jealousy". See 2 examples here and here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
MrFarFromRight- I guess he is manipulating me. But I am also not without fault. Some time ago I really demanded unreasonalbe things but that chnages constantly. He sees that I am changing 'for the better' now but he thinks it's too slow.

[many questions, followed by] I mean what should I think about it, when he puts it that way?
Maybe you should consider thinking that he's messing with your mind and with your feelings?

You admit that you are "also not without fault". Does he admit that about himself?
He "sees that I am changing 'for the better' now". Do you see that he is changing... or at least is trying to?

If you "guess he is manipulating me", what are you doing to make sure that he doesn't do so? Or (harsher question): why are you still with him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
[B]I don't know what's the case with those girls, who dislike me. But now that you have mentioned it... He desires all the 3 girsl I don't get along with and when I mention some others we both like, as a potential date or sex partner, he seems to be hesistant or just starts saying that it will not work or that I will definitely get jealous over them too or start to not like them as soon as he starts meeting them.

It's like I am also thinking of him and he is not thinking of me.
It's like he's not interested in exploring potentially healthy relationships, where there's a chance that everybody will be happy [using the excuse that "it will not work or that I will definitely get jealous over them too or start to not like them as soon as he starts meeting them"] but is perfectly happy to enter relationships where he knows right from the beginning that you will be miserable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
I remember a situation, [...] it came out K didn't have condoms and I remebered that I and bf had only one so I came to my bf wanting to ask him what to do and mayby make a quick walk to the drugstore to buy some, so we could all be protected. And then I saw he already was using our last one and he said he was so desparete that he had the chance to sleep with another woman besied me that he wasn't thinking about me being protected.

From that moment I again started to feel insecure becouse he so easily forgot about me and my eventuall needs, and he started to freak out that I did not come to him to solve the 'condom problem' but to stop him from having sex with another woman.
Here I'm going to be extra careful to repeat that to form a balanced opinion, we would need to read his version of this event. Because if your version is correct, this is a HORROR story... and you know that it is! His pleasure is more important than your safety??? His few minutes of excitement is worth more than your possible years of dealing with AIDS (or an unwanted pregnancy)???
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #12  
Old 05-05-2011, 09:56 AM
Altea Altea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
Hi Altea!
This sounds very much like he isn't willing to put any of his time or energy into caring for / working on / healing your relationship, but lets you do all that work, and then likes you to keep him up-to-date. Is he a pasha, a sultan, a basza? Does he want you to fan him with ostrich feathers, too?
I talked with him yesterday. And suggested he should write here his version of all the events and write about his feelings and problems. He said that it would not help him in any way, that he doesn't want to write here because he doesn't know, what he should write about.
He has generally an attitude like :"I have my needs and you should respect them because it's you who has a problem"
He also admitted that he doesn't have the energy to solve our relationship problems and that I should be the one taking initiative and helping me and him out, because he doesn't have the energy to. He said he is fed up with helping me all the time and that he doesn't want to help me anymore, that this is 'my turn' to help him :/
Quote:
If you both want to save the relationship (and make it healthy), you might have to learn to get used to small steps.
I know it. But I guess he doesn't want to see, that. He wants it all now.
Quote:
If your version of things is an accurate portrayal of his lack of:
a) interest in working on the relationship;
b) concern for your feelings;
c) common decency in how he treats you;
d) respect for you or for the other women he fucks...
... then I stand by my earlier advice: you should be making GIANT steps (away from him).
Maybe i should thae giant steps away. But, no matter how funny it will sound, it is not easy. Despite all his behaviour i like him and I feel the need to help him solve his problems and to teach him how to be in a healthy relationship.

I
Quote:
.Maybe you should consider thinking that he's messing with your mind and with your feelings?

You admit that you are "also not without fault". Does he admit that about himself?
He "sees that I am changing 'for the better' now". Do you see that he is changing... or at least is trying to?

If you "guess he is manipulating me", what are you doing to make sure that he doesn't do so? Or (harsher question): why are you still with him?
God only knows how many times such thought came to my mind. After each bigger discussion he admits that he is also not without fault. But he always says that the way he bahaves is his nature. He himself admits that lots of his problems are due to his foremre realtionship with his ex-gf.

I don't know if he is chnaging. He said yesterday that he sees only two ways the futeure will look like 1) he will eventually cheat on me not telling me anything so I don;t get mad 2)he will break up with me. He does not see tha version of being truly poly/swinging because as he says it is hard for him to belive I trulu open to nonmongamiuos relationships. He never tried himself to do anything to make sure I am telling the truth, he says that I should do everything to assure him of me telling the truth wbout my feelings:/

I don;t know if he is manipulating or not. I stick to him for reasons which are important for me but when I think of them now they can sound silly. I mean he was the only person that earlier said he is accepting me and he helped me (I had problems with my family and with shyness). And I really really like him and I want to help him. I mean he is almost 30 and is not able to live in a healthy relationhip. I truly want to show him that relationships aren't nesessary bad and can work out.
Quote:
It's like he's not interested in exploring potentially healthy relationships, where there's a chance that everybody will be happy [using the excuse that "it will not work or that I will definitely get jealous over them too or start to not like them as soon as he starts meeting them"] but is perfectly happy to enter relationships where he knows right from the beginning that you will be miserable.
He is a pessimist. And there are moments when he just doesn't belive in me. He says that it is easier to be single and that the bare thouhgt that he must consider me in his decisions (even if we agree on many terms) makes him feel bad ant trapped:/
Quote:
Here I'm going to be extra careful to repeat that to form a balanced opinion, we would need to read his version of this event. Because if your version is correct, this is a HORROR story... and you know that it is! His pleasure is more important than your safety??? His few minutes of excitement is worth more than your possible years of dealing with AIDS (or an unwanted pregnancy)???
As I wrote- he said he doen't want to write here, so I guess this will be the only point of view you'll get. If he wrote though I guess he would say that I seened to have a problem when I came to him/or that I seemed to be jealous and so on. But two things are facts 1)he used the last without even considering me 2)and he used the word "I was so excited that I get to sleep with another woman that I could think only of this"

---
When I write all this I start to feel miserable. I mean I had always the feeling that he is worth taking the effort and helping him. And I also always thought he was saying the truth when he said he wants to help me with my problems. But now I'm not sure of anything anymore...

I remember wathich a fil called 'bitter moon' I don't know if anyone here has seen it. But there were some dialogs between Oscar and Mimi (in the moment when their relationship was falling apart) that were exactly the same as are some dialogs of me and my bf. I mean those like:
M- What have I done wrong
O- You didn't do anything wrong. You exist. That's all

or the part when Oscar said he didn't dumped Mimi for a particualr woman, bit swaped her for all the women kind. It's sometjhing my bf doest too. He doesn't have anyone particular in mind, he just wants all the other woman he is/was surrounded by :/
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Last edited by Altea; 05-05-2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason: wanted to add something
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  #13  
Old 05-05-2011, 01:12 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
He also admitted that he doesn't have the energy to solve our relationship problems and that I should be the one taking initiative and helping me and him out
!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
Maybe i should thae giant steps away. But, no matter how funny it will sound, it is not easy. Despite all his behaviour i like him and I feel the need to help him solve his problems and to teach him how to be in a healthy relationship. [...] He never tried himself to do anything to make sure I am telling the truth, he says that I should do everything to assure him of me telling the truth wbout my feelings:/

I stick to him for reasons which are important for me but when I think of them now they can sound silly. I mean he was the only person that earlier said he is accepting me and he helped me (I had problems with my family and with shyness). And I really really like him and I want to help him. I mean he is almost 30 and is not able to live in a healthy relationhip. I truly want to show him that relationships aren't nesessary bad and can work out.
I imagine (I may be wrong) 3 reasons why you don't drop him:
1) He helped you in the past... so you owe him a favour.
2) You feel that you can help him... and he DOES need help.
3) He suffered so much when the last girlfriend left. If you, too, leave him, he will suffer again. You will feel guilty for making him suffer... and will feel that his (and your?) friends are criticising you for "doing him wrong".

My answers to those reasons are:
1) Whatever favours that he has done you in the past do NOT give him the right to treat you like shit now; do NOT give him the right to maintaining a life-long strangle-hold on your emotions and your love-life.

2) You are NOT going to help him if he isn't willing to help himself. You would only be encouraging him not to take responsibility for his own life. This is no favour to him, believe me.

3) Dear Altea! Please stop living your life according to what other people will be thinking of you! It's your life, not theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
I stick to him for reasons which are important for me but when I think of them now they can sound silly. I mean he was the only person that earlier said he is accepting me and he helped me (I had problems with my family and with shyness).
It sounds to me like you either feel or used to feel that you are unloveable, and therefore are very grateful to him for being the first person to pay you attention. I know how this feels. I went through my childhood and adolescence feeling like this.

There was one VERY nice (also - in my opinion - the most beautiful) girl in my class at school who seemed to be gently flirting with me, but I couldn't believe that she really cared for me, the unloveable one. I was too shy to act on it. Still, the suspicion that somebody might care for me was the first step I needed towards caring for myself. Later, I invented a self-therapy that helped me a lot. I think that it might help you. You can find a version here, but you will need to adapt certain details to your own life situation. (If you read further in that thread, you will see that Ivy did feel silly... but she also found that it works. I hope that she keeps up with it, because it REALLY worked for me.)

Please, please, pay especial attention to point g)!!!


Altea, you are a lovely person, whatever your boyfriend thinks. And you deserve REAL love, not just someone who pays you a little bit of attention (and some sex [which he also is benefitting from, so it's not exactly a generous gift to you]) and who reminds you constantly how much you're ruining his life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
Quote:
It's like he's not interested in exploring potentially healthy relationships, where there's a chance that everybody will be happy [using the excuse that "it will not work or that I will definitely get jealous over them too or start to not like them as soon as he starts meeting them"] but is perfectly happy to enter relationships where he knows right from the beginning that you will be miserable.
He is a pessimist. And there are moments when he just doesn't belive in me. He says that it is easier to be single and that the bare thouhgt that he must consider me in his decisions (even if we agree on many terms) makes him feel bad ant trapped:/
You didn't deal with the point that I was making here: that he seems to prefer relationships that will hurt you and tells you that he's avoiding relationships that might hurt you. [For your sake???!!! I don't think so!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altea View Post
When I write all this I start to feel miserable. I mean I had always the feeling that he is worth taking the effort and helping him. And I also always thought he was saying the truth when he said he wants to help me with my problems. But now I'm not sure of anything anymore...

I remember wathich a film called 'bitter moon' I don't know if anyone here has seen it.

M- What have I done wrong?
O- You didn't do anything wrong. You exist. That's all
When you LOOK at it and are honest with yourself, you feel miserable. Take yourself seriously!

I don't wish your boyfriend any bad things, honestly. I would be really happy to read that you are both working on your relationship, are making progress, and both beginning to feel much happier - about yourselves and about each other.

But if you've talked to him about this, and he openly says that he hasn't got the energy or time to work on all this, you need to be brutally honest with yourself and realise that you really don't mean all that much to him.

Do you mean that much to yourself? I hope so!

I LOVE Polanski! One of the greatest living film directors. I saw "Bitter Moon" once (years ago) and the UGLINESS of the relationships was so heavy that I don't know if I'll ever see it again. That 2-line dialogue that you quote runs shivers down my spine!
This web-site will not let me send you a HUG bigger than this.
Quote:
I feel like I really need to talk to someone in a open-hearted way. If you want pm me.
You may send me a PM any time you wish.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 05-05-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-05-2011, 02:39 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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I think he's done with you sweety sorry but I see all those signs there.

He will cheat on you so you don't get mad? Sounds like he doesn't want to put any effort in amd wants it now too. He's being selfish. Poly doesn't work with the snap of your fingers and a bad attitude towards those you are supposidly in love with.

He might be almost thirty but he is way too self centered to know how to be a contributor to a healthy relationship it sounds like. In this way he is around 15. I know 15 year olds that are more mature.

It sounds like he's really frustrated and uninterested in participating in your relationship any more. It sounds like he just wants to break free and go fuck a whole bunch of women that he thinks will accept that. Wellllll, good luck to him. Thing is, to have something real in life one has to put in the time and effort. Has to put up with stuff that is frustrating and hard to navigate through.

If I were you I would back right off. Give him some space and tell him you will wait for him to talk and that you suggest he read here or get help elsewhere. When he wants to talk again about this then he will have to come to you and be prepared to work. Make sure he knows that you will not put up with cheating and that if he cheats in that time then you will leave him. To me that would be the bottom line.

You can do much better than be with a cheater. You have your self worth to think about and your integrity. If he wants to blow his because he is too lazy to work on his relationship that's his choice. Hopefully that is an empty threat. Threatening is bad enough but to go the route of cheating will mean ten times the work afterwards. He won't remember the sex five years from now, he will remember the deciet, greed, trauma he caused, and how he gave up his integrity for a fuck. I suggest you make sure that he is aware of that.

Backing off might give him the break he needs to figure out what he will do. I would make sure he knows that you won't just leave it though and will be asking him how its going within a day or two. If his answer is that he doesn't know yet, then leave it and walk away. The idea is to make sure he is on it, not to pester. Also perhaps to give you some peace of mind.

It kind of makes me wonder when you say you "like" him. What's that all about?
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