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  #11  
Old 05-01-2011, 07:55 PM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
NYCindie- It may be possessiveness but Im not sure, perhaps it is in some ways... M is the most giving person I know and often literally "gives" things she loves/cares for away because she wants the receiver to experience the joy she gets from it. However even she has admitted there are some things in her life that she wants all to herself, and she is most definitly not a possessive person. She laughs a beautiful laugh when she says it makes her happy to think my others give me pleasure, the thought of me being me. The thought of me being happy in whatever capacity makes her happy. Amazing... I'm not worthy of this... but I strive to be.
I didnt mention this in my post because I would rather adress a current issue with current "tools", and frankly Im tired of it re-surfacing as a "possible" reason whereas the "reason" for a problem is not the solution to the problem from a behavoralist point of view... A "reason" can become an excuse, and an excuse is worthless. However, yes, allegence was violated long ago when I was a child when I found my mother on two occassions after suicide attempts. Be that as it may, possibly identifing the source of abandonment issues does little to solve the problem.
I will look into your thoughts and Dr. Low's book. I could use some arrows in my quiver to combat this. Thank you.
RedPepper- Your compassion and oppenness continues to awe me. I dont feel quite so much like a jerk for my loathed athough similar irrational reactions knowing that even you have experienced them. I wish you success in freeing yourself from them and I appreciate your input very much.
Mono- I have been trying to "accept through exposure" and although sickeningly painfull at times, I have endured. I havn't spontaniously combusted yet and I daresay it is the only thing that has made these times aproaching tollerable. That and M's incredible gentleness twords me even when it took everything I had not to be a raging idiot. She does not flaunt her happiness with her others, and never has resorted to an absolutly justifiable retort of "YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING!!!" of which she would be absolutly justified and accurate in saying. Ill heed your advice and keep jumping.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2011, 08:33 PM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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Redpepper.... It was I that "slept" with other men.. and women.. together as in couples. I was drawn to having sex with mf couples. My wife knew I was bi (as I describe it-'to a degree' further explanation of that aspect of 'me' is I view a male member.. ie. a cock as something akin to a really big nipple! fun and responsive to play with... anyway, I digress) but I prommised her I would not act on my bi "interests". I thought I could ignore that aspect of myself... I was wrong.
Clinical nutshell; Mother and father fought, I was always trying to make them happy/please them.
as a young adult I had/have a 11% propensity twords guys, bisexuality "runs" in my family, my oldest sister prefers women.
Mom tried to "abandon"/kill herself when we were young.
I found having sex with couples satisfied several areas in my life albeit in twisted ways.
Bi having sex with a mf couple PARTICULARLY a husband and wife AND satisfying them I transfered my yearning to make (my...) parrents happy... told yo it was twisted.
By pleasing the woman part of the couple in particular and "keeping" her happy, I transfered that to making my mother happy so she would not want to "go away" ie leave me, ie. kill herself ie. go away...
SIDE BAR **** I NEVER WANTED NOR HAD SEX WITH MY PARRENTS**** AND NEVER DID
Told you it was twisted.... but then... this is all speculation on my part.
When I was outed to my wife and I had the above apifany, her respense was, ; I DONT BUY IT...
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2011, 08:34 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islandgy9 View Post
Be that as it may, possibly identifing the source of abandonment issues does little to solve the problem.
Well, regarding looking at the past and the patterns we carry with us -- the "solving" comes from just knowing where it possibly came from, which helps to see the current situation more clearly. Knowing we have a predisposition toward a certain type of reaction helps us gain objectivity and to be able to say, "Hey, this situation today is not the same as the situation from the past. I don't have to react the same way." We can start to see things for what they are instead of through the lens of our past experiences. Determining where patterns originated simply gives us more awareness and more choices, and is often enough to set us free.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2011, 08:40 PM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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I agree it helps nycindie. But do we really know what is "identified" is the true reason for the issue? No real way of telling, is there? Im not being synical, just saying...
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2011, 08:44 PM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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For what its worth, here is the rest of the orriginal posted tread Double Standard, it might give some background for what its worth.
If you want to know more, here it is
More about me. One way that seems accurate to me when differentiating between what I want with my others and what M wants is: 'I am seeking relations with others (I enjoy experiencing the physical, carnal side of people, while M enjoys cultivating a relationship. Big difference I think... But then there is C… so that blows that theory out of the water… I seem to be most content with having a very close primary emotional/love relationship with one woman (M) and “playing” with two different mf couple “sexual friends” once a month or so for a few hours. I don’t feel emotionally close to either couple although one of the couples I have been ‘playing’ with for about 7 years. We are sexually compatible and are more playmates than close friends. Both couples have bi male counterparts of which I enjoy as well as the female half. M knows about these couples and actually encourages me to “be me” and enjoy them, she is amazing.
However, before I was aware C’s others did not know about me I started having love feelings for C (yes, possibly NRE as suggested by some people on this site, but I don’t think so) while also loving M. With all respect to those who are capable of loving more than one, I personally found by caring deeply for two women at the same time absolutely made it impossible FOR ME to love either of them “fully”. I could not give either one my ‘all’ and I found that to be very, very sad. FOR ME, not being able to give my all ultimately lacked the incomparible fulfillment loving only one fully brings me... I don’t understand how giving your all to more than one is even possible. Granted, I have very limited experience. I admire those who claim they can. I hope my inability does not offend anyone here.
About M: from a young age M remembers never wanting to get married, thinking the concept too confining. She had a hyper work ethic for years and at times had 3 jobs going at once, going from one to another then to the other after that. Not much social life for years. She found a ‘true’ love in college but 'the timing wasn't right' and it ended when he 'pushed' her away because he became sick and didn't want to burden her. She had boyfriends since then (we are both 49) but never wanted a live in type arrangement. About 8 years ago she was 'traumatized' on the job by her 'superiors' and has been clinically diagnosed with PTSD due to the harshness of her treatment in that male dominated field.
When I met her and started hanging out with her she was a self described recluse with her dogs. Perhaps she was just simply ready to get back into' life when I came into the picture. I knew she was a different kind of person, but I admire independence. I just need some pointers on how I can adapt.
We were just hanging out together watching silly TV shows and playing with her dogs. At the time I was in a bizarre online relationship that had red flags written all over it. M helped me see that. I told her all about myself as my newfound need for total disclosure was burning to be released... She didn't run away screaming which definitely endeared her to me. She knows more about me, everything actually, than anybody. She became interested in knowing more about the 'swinging' experiences I had, and actually critiqued a profile I had on a swinger’s site. She even took some 'R' rated pictures of me because she didn’t like the photos I had of myself on the swing site.
After some time spent talking about threesomes and getting more comfortable together M and I became intimate sexually.
We created a profile on a swinger’s site and were promptly inundated with responses. I was overwhelmed and asked M to sift through the responses and find a suitable candidate. I assumed M would pick a guy based on appearance and relative intelligence ... WRONG!!! To my shocked and surprised 'horror' M wanted to 'get to know these guys/wolves (sorry, but some are exactly that) with involved witty dialogs online. I told her it could be ‘Pandora’s box’. I believe opening yourself emotionally, intimately and sexually with people independently and apart from your significant other as she has found she likes to do can’t help but to invite all of the characteristics that cultivate the unrestricted likelihood of a separate and apart love relationship in place of the primary relationship.... I suppose some of you are saying "EXACTLY!!! That’s the point!" Well,... I don’t want to loose her to someone else and I would not be happy (selfish I suppose) if because she opened herself to others, independent and apart love happened. Then to my ultimate concern, she became defensive and 'offended' when I asked her to forward her conversations with these guys to me so I could 'be in the loop' so to speak. I thought we agreed that all our communications were going to be 'transparent' ... Boy was I wrong... That was the beginning of the struggle.
She developed an online 'kindred ship' as she called it, with one of the swing site guys as well as steady private correspondences with several others. We had an initial 'meet and greet' with ‘J’, her special friend and I didn't like him. He didn't let her finish what she was saying during our conversation and interrupted her several times mid sentence to interject something irrelevant, I actually stood up from the table and said ' I've had enough, let's go'... Wrong again... M and I had a 'private ' meeting in the lobby and I asked her to 'rate' him from 1 - 10. She picked 8 I picked 5. After I said 5 she spoke up and said she didn't want to seem overanxious but was really thinking he was a 10... I nearly fell over. She was enamored. We did not hook up that night after much debating. After a few days I relented and agreed to invite him over to my place (M and I do not live together) so the three of us could try again. Things went better but as it turned out J was not really BI like he said he was. No big deal, this was about M's first threesome and I was willing to go with the flow. I felt comfortable enough leaving them so they could enjoy each other alone for awhile. Overall things went ok. A couple of weeks later M 'TOLD' me she was driving (J lives about 60 miles from our town) up to have coffee and maybe sex with J. That just about knocked me flat. Off she went and had coffeesex as we now call it. That was about 16 months ago. She still 'just enjoys' him as she puts it. I have tried to accept her visits as though she is visiting a beautiful garden where she smells the flowers and rambles around for awhile then comes 'home'. I’ve gotten used to the butterflies... No, pterodactyls that bang around in my stomach when she leaves, or he goes to her place. The last two times they spent the night together, at his request. They are not interested in having another threesome with me. Kinda sucks...er doesn't suck.. Er rather no sucking for me... Couldn't resist the pun!
Since then M became re-involved with a previous boyfriend and for months was mostly splitting her time between 'D' and me. I was having issues with the lack of time I had with her, but tried very hard to think differently and accept openness. Those were troubled months. M was the hinge in the ‘V’. Eventually D wanted M all to himself. He basically accepted me but was intolerant of J and M's “cultivations” online. They parted ways with a lot of pain and sadness on both sides.
Since then M has continued to see J every other month or so and has cultivated several 'friendships' online and texting with some phone calls through her own profile she independently posted on the swinger site. She has met with two of these online friends each on one occasion. She did not have sex with them and continues to communicate privately with them and says she may be physical with them in the future.
In efforts on my part to 'accept through exposure".... When she almost canceled a much looked forward to first time meeting with one of them I fought back the raging pterodactyls and offered to take care of her dogs and I rented a car for her to drive 150 miles to visit him. "He" tried to rent a car to visit her but was unable to obtain one. My guts were in a knot for a week before.
We dismantled our joint profile on the swing site long ago. I actually became aware of M's private profile when I was showing a vertical couple friend the swinger site. I nearly fell off my chair when I saw the picture I took of M in the single woman category. She told me she was working on a personal profile but I didn’t know it was up and running. Ouch...
Other than the profile bomb drop, M has been completely honest and open. She says she is grateful to me for introducing a new way of being for her that is what she believes she's always hoped was possible. I know she cares for me very much and she says she has never been able to spend more than a few hours in someone else’s company until me which is comforting.
Again, MY struggle is that I still get almost incapacitated with fear of abandonment and its nasty attributes as well as huge inner conflict of 'ganderism' wishing she would only want me while at the same accepting within myself that I seem to 'need' aspects of relationships outside what M and I share. I fully recognize how horribly hypocritical this is... I see the double standard plain as day but I can NOT rationalize it away! Please help...
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  #16  
Old 05-01-2011, 10:02 PM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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Redpepper …. I think I totally misunderstood your comment….oops..
What I have realized is that so far my trying to rationalize my irrationality with reason isn’t working… I will apply the tools you all have given me and with any luck M (rubbyslippers) wont throw me overboard…. By the way rubbyslippers, thanks for the kind words.
Which reminds me of an analogy that I am trying to keeping mind.
I picture M’s and my relationship as A beautiful sailboat that we both built and live in together in a beautiful harbor. Now and again we both like to take the dingy out and explore the harbor, sometimes together and sometimes alone. I like the idea and I’m pretty comfortable that I can mind the boat while M takes a row around the harbor and experiences new things even visiting other boats in the harbor. I would like to do the same from time to time. I know living on a boat can get a bit confining at times.
When I told M about this analogy she liked the dingy idea but preferred to think of our relationship as two boats tied up together as opposed to living on one boat. I need to keep that in mind…
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  #17  
Old 05-02-2011, 01:42 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Hey Islandgy,

Would it be helpful if I said Rome wasn't built in a day ?
Because really, it may be that simple.
We can't overcome 18 to 50 years of society's programming in a few months. Maybe even years. But we CAN do it.
In other words, it's ingrained in us at this point to feel that we have 'rights' to own something special - something that's all OURS. Reserved. It takes time to fully embrace the fact that other human beings are NOT on that list !
At an intellectual level we can understand this. At a practical and emotional level it's not so easy. It takes retraining !
Grab yourself a mantra and repeat it endlessly until it sticks. Something like "this person is a free soul - my place is to support this freedom".
Be patient with yourself but don't let yourself off the hook. Keep kicking when you deserve it.
Time is the solution............and genuine effort. No rocket science required.

GS
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2011, 02:50 PM
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rubyslippers rubyslippers is offline
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Hi GS...humans don't fall under ownership category...like dogs....i have three and they came into my life as rescues...they own my heart and soul and allegiance...and really, each "saved me" a different part of me, when they entered my life at disparate times...people said I rescued them when the opposite was true. islandgy9 is a bright and shiny one, in the words of an artist who is a mutual friend...i like to share what I like best...although there are some things I own, like a pair of carved little stone dinosaurs, a green Triceratops and a pink Tyrannosaurus Rex, which I told him I'd put away before niece and nephew came to visit...because if they admired them or wanted them, I'd give them away...i like these so much I won't find another pair like them. islandgy9 pointed this out to me.
precoffee babble here...forgive syntax spelling etc. time to feed the hungry horde...P, HG and little B...Ground beef in broth and Canidae Super Platinum...yum...oh, and string beans. They love string beans except for the Border Collie mix, she likes carrots...
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  #19  
Old 05-03-2011, 12:17 AM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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Thanks groundedspirit, I will heed your advice.
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  #20  
Old 05-04-2011, 04:13 AM
islandgy9 islandgy9 is offline
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This was what I was also wondering. What has come up as a result of having cheated. What realizations about what you did have changed in you since experiencing your love going out and sleeping with other men?

Redpepper - If i understand your question correctly, ( I don't think I am though..) this would have to be my answer. * **
After my wife told me to get out and that she was divorcing me, she said she hoped someday someone would do the same thing to me so I would know the pain she was feeling... *Even though I thought I could deal with sharing my love with another man this agonizing feeling happened. I can only begin to think of what it was like for my ex... Because she didnt invite it, she was not given the opprotunity to choose weather it was ok with her (I knew it would not be, she made it clear before we married) is that an answer you expected?*
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