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  #111  
Old 04-19-2011, 04:09 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I don't feel safe with him. Anytime he is scared or insecure he attacks me verbally.

He sent a text to me (on accident) that was intended for someone else. It started with "It's insane that I still love her."

He can't understand why that eroded my trust in him further OR why it leaves me doubting the point of making an effort with him.
I can't figure out how to explain it to him-because it's so obvious to me that saying that about me to other people is such a fucked up sign of disrespect and disregard...
Ahh, dear, dear LR, I hate to say this but... pot meet kettle.

How is Maca's saying "It's insane that I still love her" any different from what you are writing about him here? Sure, perhaps he's saying it to people who know you and what you're saying here is to mostly anonymous people, but his saying that doesn't look disrespectful from where I sit.

Actually I thought it was a pretty cool comment that could mean exactly the opposite of what you thought - like that, "despite how insane it is, I love her and can't stop loving her." I saw it as acknowledging his love for you amidst all the craziness (which he is also acknowledging). Meanwhile you are analyzing his personality and detailing his fears and shortcomings as you see them, for all of us and him to read here, so I fail to see how his comment is so much worse than what you're doing, or disrespectful, or disregarding you in any way. Can't he vent to people like you can? It's difficult for Maca, too.

It's obvious you're pissed, but perhaps in this instance, you could cut him some slack. Just my two dinars.
@nycindie: While wanting to be careful about being fair to Maca (I don't actually LIKE the taste of my foot in my mouth), I think that I can understand LR's feeling like this... and perhaps for different reasons than those with which she has already replied to you. The way I understood that "why that eroded my trust in him further" (and I might be way off base here) was "Whenever Maca and I talk, he is full of accusations and doesn't tell me that he still loves me... And yet he's willing to tell OTHERS that he still loves me." IF that's the case - and I were in LR's position - it would seem to me like a power game (keeping LR wondering or doubting, not reassuring her that there is real love there).
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- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 04-19-2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: clarification of a detail
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  #112  
Old 04-19-2011, 06:26 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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[QUOTE=Magdlyn;77128]
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Ah, LR you and Maca must both be so exhausted. Sounds like there was quite a bit of boundary breaking on both side of the relationship over the years.
Yes and Yes.


Quote:
Recently I read in the Personal Summaries thread that your youngest child is GG's by artificial insemination. I am amazed Maca would agree to you carrying GG's child, and raising her (?) co-operatively, yet still be so resentful of GG all along.
He flip flops. He decides on something, then fear of all of the "what if's" hits and he panicks, runs the other direction. This occurs in every aspect of his life except his career. It happens roughly every 2-4 weeks. I've logged it on a calendar because it's so predictable.


Quote:
You sound like you need a break from all the fruitless arguing and pissiness. I see no point in anyone moving out of your house right now...
That's exactly what I keep saying. I just need the pointless battle/drama to stop. I feel like I'm talkign to a wall. When I say that-he says I just don't give a shit about him. I can't care about him or anyone else if I can't even THINK STRAIGHT through the back and forth of the drama.

Quote:
poor GG, it seems like he's getting lost in the shuffle. What about his need for security?
I brought that up as well and was told that all I care about is GG and he's OBVIOUSLY more important to me because I was saying that his feelings and needs deserved to be considered EQUALLY to ours. I also said the same of Mimi-who lives here as well. But, the truth is that they do both get lost in the shuffle because everything revolves around trying to keep Maca from flipping out or feeling unwanted, unloved, unimportant, unmeaningful etc.

Quote:
Could you and Maca just not talk to or see each other (besides dropping kids off) for like a month or so? Just take a break and let the dust settle... It seems the more you try and talk to him and make plans, the worse things get.
In theory-yes. But, he can't handle it.
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  #113  
Old 04-20-2011, 01:54 AM
Ilove2men Ilove2men is offline
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I'm coming out of lurking for this one. What a vicious cycle this is! I have been through 2 of these in less than a year. One failed. One is healing and progressing. I would like to share what I have learned from my experiences. If it applies great if it doesn't, dismiss it.

This back and forth needs to stop. Someone (both actually) needs to realize the destructive cycle you both have created and put the emergency brakes on. Stop everything immediately. Separate. Deal with your own stuff seperatley. Scream, curse, blame, cry, get all the crazy out (alone) so you can breathe and see clearly, and understand yourself and where you are at and contemplate where the other person is at emotionally. It will help with communicating. It will let you control the beast that both of you have right now inside of you.

Both of you stop focusing on what the other person has done or is doing. Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words. It's time to accept accountabilit without expectation of reciprocation.

Stop comparing dirty deeds. It's like comparing knife wounds. Each wound is different. Each person's skin is different. What cuts one deep may cut us less and vice versa. It's pointless. Has it gotten either of you anywhere, but deeper into this black hole of misery?

LR, let go of Maca and focus on yourself. Stop analyzing him. Stop agreeing to plans. Stop making plans for improvement until the both of you gain control. We don't get to say when he will stop hurting over what has taken place. He doesn't get to say when he stops hurting either. If he did he wouldn't still be going through this because he has said he's made peace before. Haven't you gone through that before, LR? I know I have. Wanted to move forward so bad. Felt I could will myself into letting it go. Felt I was honestly in a place of peace... Then the pain would infect me again. Something would trigger it and I was in an emotional spiral I couldn't control and taking down the people I loved with me. God I hated myself for it, but I am only human and I had to accept I couldn't just make myself stop hurting. Sometimes it takes time... Like YEARS. Accepting that I had to be patient with myself and not force it.. That's when the progress really started.

He needs time away from everyone so he can release these emotions without hurting everyone. Stop making date nights. Stop making scheduled talks. Make an agreement that each of you will request communication and/or time together, but there will be no obligation for the other person to accept and the one requesting cannot get angry over the other not being in an emotional state to do so. Make an agreement that there will be no more adding to the destruction and if either of you has to make a quick exit (in communication or pressence) to prevent that, the other will be understanding and know it comes from a place of whating to improve not make worse.

This helped me get through alot of overwhelming emotions. This has helped me see that I can overcome what has happened when I thought there was no saving this.

I read where you said Maca needed you to not "always" talk about issues. Through the worst of my relationship (complete and utter destruction) there were moments where I basically said, "please, I need it all to stop and go away. Just for this moment. I need to be held. I need to talk about anything else. I need to hear your heart beat. I need to feel your wamth. I need to feel something with you that isn't pain or anger or fear." It was a moment of vunerability. It was sooooo very healing. Then... It was back to working on everything. Picking through the rubble.

I feel like I'm rambling... Just the both of you... Stop blaming. Stop seeing what the other is doing as how it effects you. Try to see the emotional turmoil of the other that is creating this mess. See the others pain and understand it. Give space and heal your own.

Again, these are lessons of my own life and whether or not it is relevant to yours I share them with love and good intentions.

Last edited by Ilove2men; 04-20-2011 at 03:47 AM.
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  #114  
Old 04-20-2011, 10:05 AM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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@ Maca While I was typing my comment to you:
Quote:
Maca, I owe you an apology. [...] (signed) MrPutMyFootInMyMouth
I got a warning that I had 5 minutes left to save any work I was doing before my session ended (I was connecting via a public library - max. allowance 1 hour/day). So I finished my comment hastily and posted it. I’d like to come back now and comment more extensively. The quotes are all from your 2 comments on this thread.

I hate it when people jump to conclusions. And I hate it even worse when I’m the one doing the jumping and they’re my conclusions being jumped to. Maths was my favourite subject at school (and my subject at university), and I do like putting 2 and 2 together. But I shouldn’t assume that the answer that I come up with is the right one (or – in some cases - the only right one)! So - once again - my apologies, and be assured that none of the following are assumptions, I'm just throwing some ideas at you.

Quote:
This is LR's thread and Im not even sure its polite of me to write in it
Maca, who better to comment on all this than you??? I’m sure that many of us have been wanting to read your version of all this. And I hope that you’ve returned to read the comments thanking you for taking part. I add my voice to those thanks. As for “polite”: I’m sure that politeness should take a back seat (or even – if necessary - be locked in the boot [trunk in American]) to trying to find a satisfying solution to all this. (Don’t equate “politeness” with “decency”: decency and fairness should never be locked in the boot!)

Quote:
Yes I was LR's Dom, No I wasnt happy about her wanting to be GG's mistress.
I have to admit (as I’ve admitted before on several threads) that this whole BDSM thing is alien to me. What I’m about to do now isn’t jumping to conclusions: it’s asking for some honest answers – both so that I can understand better and perhaps so that you, Maca, in answering honestly, might get a different perspective.

Did the fact that you were LR’s Dom increase your feelings of betrayal?

Did the fact that LR wanted to experiment with “having the upper hand” (becoming the Mistress in her relationship with GG) cause you any fear that she might one day threaten your own power dynamic with her?
Quote:
LR and I talked today about our relationship and she maintains that in order for me to be with her I have to let go of my issues with her being in a romantic relationship with GG. I told her I have tried and that the scar is so deep. She went on to talk about "wanting to forgive" "wanting to make things work". I got real with her, I told her that the thing is " I dont feel a drive to forgive him" " I dont like or want to be reminded of the affair or there romantic relationship". With LR I wanted to forgive, I did forgive. With GG, its just not there. He is a good guy, him and I get along just fine when its not involving LR. We work well as a team. There is just to much that is wrong with me, I cant break through the hurt and anger.
Nobody on this board is going to be able to help you if you don’t want to help yourself on this one. I don’t need to jump to any conclusions to know that you aren’t perfect. You’ve made mistakes in your life. [ALL of us have.] If we can believe (Can we believe?) LR’s version of things, some of these were pretty heavy mistakes. If we can believe (Can we believe?) LR’s version of things, she has forgiven you for them and is willing to move one. If we can believe (Can we believe?) your version of things, you are willing to forgive (have forgiven) LR but not GG – even though “He is a good guy, him and I get along just fine when its not involving LR.”

I’ve read several times on other threads (and it’s something that I believe myself) that often, when we say that somebody has hurt us deeply, the truth is that we are hurting ourselves and push the blame on other people. If we can believe (Can we believe?) LR’s version of things, LR and GG are willing to move on. It’s you who’s having trouble with letting go of the hurt in the past. That holding on is harming you and hurting all those around you – at least the ones who love you.

Quote:
As for the weekend Daddy thing. You have no idea the tears I shed at night. The lump that forms in my throat every time I have to say good bye to them. The hour long drive back to my lonely one room apt feels like walking through a fire pit that is covered in broken glass.
I have a confession to make. I once co-parented 2 young girls (2 of the most important people in my life). I didn’t have any sexual connection with their parents, but we were good friends. The father (who’d been born into an inheritance) bought a farm (that I found) and the idea was that we were going to start a commune. He offered – but I refused – to put my name on the deeds as 1/3 owner. Delays in increasing the size of the group (the couple’s decision), the difficulties of living as tacked-on person to an otherwise nuclear family in a rural community in a foreign country where I had no other friends, and the decision-making dynamic (in principle, we were all to have an equal say right from the beginning – in practice whenever he just didn’t care about any issue, he’d vote for her side, so that [unless I agreed with her] I lost every vote) all served to create friction between myself and the couple… to the point that I walked out to another country! (I had no work permit for the country where the farm was and couldn’t have made my own living there without working illegally.) So I, too, have been through that process of choosing to walk out on children that I dearly loved… and suffering terribly at the separation. [Luckily, “absence makes the heart grow fonder”: I’m back to being good friends of the couple, and maintain contact with the children – now adults – even if it is at a distance.]
Quote:
Mr, I know that your smitten with LR, she is easy to get smitten with.
I admit the charge. LR comes across as a caring person, [almost – when she isn’t hurting too much from her own problems - always] ready to give helpful advice to others on this board, and I’m sure that I’m not the only one who really appreciates her input here. And not the only one who feels for her present pain. As the song (which I’ve shared on another thread) goes:

When things go wrong,
So wrong for you…
It hurts me, too.


Quote:
I spent the first several years taking care of him financially while he was at home trying to help LR school the kids.
As someone who has also been – in this case - in GG’s position, depending on somebody else financially while putting energy into the family, I want to ask you this:

Do/did you resent this? Do/did you feel that GG was being a parasite?

Another question: Was GG putting in any other energy (aside from the home-schooling and being responsible for his own shit – cleaning up after himself, washing his fair share of the dishes) into improvements in the living conditions for the whole group?

Have you heard about the movement for housewives/homemakers to be paid for all the work they do? Do you know how much that work would cost if a professional (even a low-paid immigrant) were doing it? If you’re still holding onto any resentment about GG living at your expense, I honestly think that you should consider all this.

Reading between the lines (and according to LR’s version), I gather that Mimi, LR, and GG are all / have all – for many years – been putting emotional and physical energy into caring for [oh hell! Let's not be shy about using this word: LOVING] (among others) one child who is not related to any of them biologically – your son by your ex-wife.

While walking into town to my Internet connection today, without your posts in front of my eyes (but they’ve been in my thoughts for the 2 days since I first read them, believe me), I was thinking of writing “If any of you – Maca, GG, LR, [and now I’ll have to add Mimi] don’t consider all of the children involved to be part of the family of each of the adults… then there’s no hope for you”. Now that I’ve accessed this thread, I see that your signature is ‘" NO WORDDIES BE HAPPY"- My 2 year old baby girl’ Now, I happen to know that this 2 (now 3) year old isn’t your biological daughter. But she’s still “My 2 year old baby girl”. So there IS hope for all of you after all.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #115  
Old 04-20-2011, 10:21 AM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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The whole of the comment I'm going to quote from should be read by both of you, Maca and LR. Real wisdom! I could "quote" the whole thing. But I want to highlight:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
This back and forth needs to stop. Someone (both actually) needs to realize the destructive cycle you both have created and put the emergency brakes on. Stop everything immediately. Separate. Deal with your own stuff seperatley. Scream, curse, blame, cry, get all the crazy out (alone) so you can breathe and see clearly, and understand yourself and where you are at and contemplate where the other person is at emotionally. It will help with communicating. It will let you control the beast that both of you have right now inside of you.

Both of you stop focusing on what the other person has done or is doing. Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words. It's time to accept accountability without expectation of reciprocation.
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.
cannot be repeated too often.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #116  
Old 04-20-2011, 02:52 PM
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LR, I actually woke up this morning thinking about you and Maca.

I think Ilove2men has some very valid points and excellent advice. Lately it seems there has been a bit of raking each other over the coals somewhat, alongside the love and pain, and I think some real space (in both time and proximity) would be very healing to both of you.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #117  
Old 04-20-2011, 03:34 PM
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I concur on the space. For awhile, I kept trying to hash things out with O. Eventually it became clear that it was going nowhere. Obviously I will not be getting back with him but the space has been so healing. Whatever happens with him at least I know now that I'm doing better. It's helped me to form a more broad perspective and sift out the feelings and facts. I think there comes a point when conversations just become highly unproductive.
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  #118  
Old 04-20-2011, 08:52 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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I agree as well.

Taking space hasn't ever been a threat for me. It's simply not been an opportunity due to the percieved threat to others.

I'll leave my response at that.




In update news;

I asked Maca to consider an agreement between us for however long we are working through this.
I was clear that I need SOME sort of agreement-and I wrote out what I thought needed to be included in it-and asked him to let me know what he felt needed to be included as well.

We're supposed to finalize it on Saturday.

Two of the key things I asked for are

We don't discuss our relationship problems except for one day a week for a maximum of two hours, unless in a counseling appointment.

We don't discuss my relationship with Chris outside of counseling.

There's no way to tell so soon how well that will work. But, hopefully it will allow for a little breathing room for both of us.
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  #119  
Old 04-21-2011, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I.E.

Abandoning me to deal w/his ex-wife and her threats against myself and my children, including two attempts at kidnapping my kids.

Abandoning me to deal with his son who was abusive due to emotional trauma caused by his parents b.s.

Accusing me of cheating for 2 years before I ever did ANYTHING to warrant the accusation.

Going out to the bars 3-4 nights a week to play pool with the guys "cause he was on a league" and expecting me to take care of the kids-but I'm not allowed to go out without him.

Telling me he wasn't going to pursue a relationship with someone-then doing it behind my back.

Telling me he wasn't going to take said person to our house (his choice, not my demand) and then doing it behind my back.

Starting a sexual relationship, making out etc-behind my back.

Creating boundary rules for a "poly boundary list agreement" and then breaking them.

It's easy for him to say that I should just understand when he makes a "mistake", but it's not something he will do in return.....
I've got to admit. Every sentence in here scares me. LR, why are you still working on this? Because you love him? There are a lot of people out there worth loving. Because you made a promise? It's a sad fact of life that promises get broken sometimes.

He's left the house, you're going through therapy, those are good steps. But you've questioned on here why you're still trying and I am questioning it right along with you. This doesn't seem healthy.

Leaving is a very, very hard thing to do. Even harder, I'm sure, in a situation like this where there are kids involved. I left my lover of just three years, a quarter of the time you've been with Maca, and it was the hardest thing I've ever done. But it was also the best thing I've ever done.

If you do decide to leave.... your life will go on. Everyone involved will figure out how to heal and it might be a whole heck of a lot better than this situation which seems to me to be very worryingly putting your health (exposing you sexually, second-hand, to people without your agreement) and your heart (verbal abuse, promises broken and retracted, constant about-faces, disrespect) at constant risk.
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  #120  
Old 04-21-2011, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Taking space hasn't ever been a threat for me. It's simply not been an opportunity due to the percieved threat to others.
But see, LR, even just saying this is a way of blaming someone else. Your mindset is self-victimizing, if that is a term. If you want space, need space, take it. Instead, you're always giving yourself and Maca homework to do and contracts to sign. And then you get upset when he goes back and forth. Just work on you and let go of hopes and expectations.

I suggest you read Ilove2men's post again and again and again - carefully, very carefully, line by line, and let it sink in. Lots of wisdom there.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 04-21-2011 at 04:00 AM.
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