Just LR

[Ilove2men]

I'm coming out of lurking for this one. What a vicious cycle this is! I have been through 2 of these in less than a year. One failed. One is healing and progressing. I would like to share what I have learned from my experiences. If it applies great if it doesn't, dismiss it.

This back and forth needs to stop. Someone (both actually) needs to realize the destructive cycle you both have created and put the emergency brakes on. Stop everything immediately. Separate. Deal with your own stuff seperatley. Scream, curse, blame, cry, get all the crazy out (alone) so you can breathe and see clearly, and understand yourself and where you are at and contemplate where the other person is at emotionally. It will help with communicating. It will let you control the beast that both of you have right now inside of you.

Both of you stop focusing on what the other person has done or is doing. Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words. It's time to accept accountabilit without expectation of reciprocation.

Stop comparing dirty deeds. It's like comparing knife wounds. Each wound is different. Each person's skin is different. What cuts one deep may cut us less and vice versa. It's pointless. Has it gotten either of you anywhere, but deeper into this black hole of misery?

LR, let go of Maca and focus on yourself. Stop analyzing him. Stop agreeing to plans. Stop making plans for improvement until the both of you gain control. We don't get to say when he will stop hurting over what has taken place. He doesn't get to say when he stops hurting either. If he did he wouldn't still be going through this because he has said he's made peace before. Haven't you gone through that before, LR? I know I have. Wanted to move forward so bad. Felt I could will myself into letting it go. Felt I was honestly in a place of peace... Then the pain would infect me again. Something would trigger it and I was in an emotional spiral I couldn't control and taking down the people I loved with me. God I hated myself for it, but I am only human and I had to accept I couldn't just make myself stop hurting. Sometimes it takes time... Like YEARS. Accepting that I had to be patient with myself and not force it.. That's when the progress really started.

He needs time away from everyone so he can release these emotions without hurting everyone. Stop making date nights. Stop making scheduled talks. Make an agreement that each of you will request communication and/or time together, but there will be no obligation for the other person to accept and the one requesting cannot get angry over the other not being in an emotional state to do so. Make an agreement that there will be no more adding to the destruction and if either of you has to make a quick exit (in communication or pressence) to prevent that, the other will be understanding and know it comes from a place of whating to improve not make worse.

This helped me get through alot of overwhelming emotions. This has helped me see that I can overcome what has happened when I thought there was no saving this.

I read where you said Maca needed you to not "always" talk about issues. Through the worst of my relationship (complete and utter destruction) there were moments where I basically said, "please, I need it all to stop and go away. Just for this moment. I need to be held. I need to talk about anything else. I need to hear your heart beat. I need to feel your wamth. I need to feel something with you that isn't pain or anger or fear." It was a moment of vunerability. It was sooooo very healing. Then... It was back to working on everything. Picking through the rubble.

I feel like I'm rambling... Just the both of you... Stop blaming. Stop seeing what the other is doing as how it effects you. Try to see the emotional turmoil of the other that is creating this mess. See the others pain and understand it. Give space and heal your own.

Again, these are lessons of my own life and whether or not it is relevant to yours I share them with love and good intentions.

[MrFarFromRight]

@ Maca While I was typing my comment to you:

Maca, I owe you an apology. [...] (signed) MrPutMyFootInMyMouth

I got a warning that I had 5 minutes left to save any work I was doing before my session ended (I was connecting via a public library - max. allowance 1 hour/day). So I finished my comment hastily and posted it. I’d like to come back now and comment more extensively. The quotes are all from your 2 comments on this thread.

I hate it when people jump to conclusions. And I hate it even worse when I’m the one doing the jumping and they’re my conclusions being jumped to. Maths was my favourite subject at school (and my subject at university), and I do like putting 2 and 2 together. But I shouldn’t assume that the answer that I come up with is the right one (or – in some cases - the only right one)! So - once again - my apologies, and be assured that none of the following are assumptions, I'm just throwing some ideas at you.

This is LR's thread and Im not even sure its polite of me to write in it

Maca, who better to comment on all this than you??? I’m sure that many of us have been wanting to read your version of all this. And I hope that you’ve returned to read the comments thanking you for taking part. I add my voice to those thanks. As for “polite”: I’m sure that politeness should take a back seat (or even – if necessary - be locked in the boot [trunk in American]) to trying to find a satisfying solution to all this. (Don’t equate “politeness” with “decency”: decency and fairness should never be locked in the boot!)

Yes I was LR's Dom, No I wasnt happy about her wanting to be GG's mistress.

I have to admit (as I’ve admitted before on several threads) that this whole BDSM thing is alien to me. What I’m about to do now isn’t jumping to conclusions: it’s asking for some honest answers – both so that I can understand better and perhaps so that you, Maca, in answering honestly, might get a different perspective.

Did the fact that you were LR’s Dom increase your feelings of betrayal?

Did the fact that LR wanted to experiment with “having the upper hand” (becoming the Mistress in her relationship with GG) cause you any fear that she might one day threaten your own power dynamic with her?

LR and I talked today about our relationship and she maintains that in order for me to be with her I have to let go of my issues with her being in a romantic relationship with GG. I told her I have tried and that the scar is so deep. She went on to talk about "wanting to forgive" "wanting to make things work". I got real with her, I told her that the thing is " I dont feel a drive to forgive him" " I dont like or want to be reminded of the affair or there romantic relationship". With LR I wanted to forgive, I did forgive. With GG, its just not there. He is a good guy, him and I get along just fine when its not involving LR. We work well as a team. There is just to much that is wrong with me, I cant break through the hurt and anger.

Nobody on this board is going to be able to help you if you don’t want to help yourself on this one. I don’t need to jump to any conclusions to know that you aren’t perfect. You’ve made mistakes in your life. [ALL of us have.] If we can believe (Can we believe?) LR’s version of things, some of these were pretty heavy mistakes. If we can believe (Can we believe?) LR’s version of things, she has forgiven you for them and is willing to move one. If we can believe (Can we believe?) your version of things, you are willing to forgive (have forgiven) LR but not GG – even though “He is a good guy, him and I get along just fine when its not involving LR.”

I’ve read several times on other threads (and it’s something that I believe myself) that often, when we say that somebody has hurt us deeply, the truth is that we are hurting ourselves and push the blame on other people. If we can believe (Can we believe?) LR’s version of things, LR and GG are willing to move on. It’s you who’s having trouble with letting go of the hurt in the past. That holding on is harming you and hurting all those around you – at least the ones who love you.

As for the weekend Daddy thing. You have no idea the tears I shed at night. The lump that forms in my throat every time I have to say good bye to them. The hour long drive back to my lonely one room apt feels like walking through a fire pit that is covered in broken glass.

I have a confession to make. I once co-parented 2 young girls (2 of the most important people in my life). I didn’t have any sexual connection with their parents, but we were good friends. The father (who’d been born into an inheritance) bought a farm (that I found) and the idea was that we were going to start a commune. He offered – but I refused – to put my name on the deeds as 1/3 owner. Delays in increasing the size of the group (the couple’s decision), the difficulties of living as tacked-on person to an otherwise nuclear family in a rural community in a foreign country where I had no other friends, and the decision-making dynamic (in principle, we were all to have an equal say right from the beginning – in practice whenever he just didn’t care about any issue, he’d vote for her side, so that [unless I agreed with her] I lost every vote) all served to create friction between myself and the couple… to the point that I walked out to another country! (I had no work permit for the country where the farm was and couldn’t have made my own living there without working illegally.) So I, too, have been through that process of choosing to walk out on children that I dearly loved… and suffering terribly at the separation. [Luckily, “absence makes the heart grow fonder”: I’m back to being good friends of the couple, and maintain contact with the children – now adults – even if it is at a distance.]

Mr, I know that your smitten with LR, she is easy to get smitten with.

I admit the charge. LR comes across as a caring person, [almost – when she isn’t hurting too much from her own problems - always] ready to give helpful advice to others on this board, and I’m sure that I’m not the only one who really appreciates her input here. And not the only one who feels for her present pain. As the song (which I’ve shared on another thread) goes:

When things go wrong,
So wrong for you…
It hurts me, too.

I spent the first several years taking care of him financially while he was at home trying to help LR school the kids.

As someone who has also been – in this case - in GG’s position, depending on somebody else financially while putting energy into the family, I want to ask you this:

Do/did you resent this? Do/did you feel that GG was being a parasite?

Another question: Was GG putting in any other energy (aside from the home-schooling and being responsible for his own shit – cleaning up after himself, washing his fair share of the dishes) into improvements in the living conditions for the whole group?

Have you heard about the movement for housewives/homemakers to be paid for all the work they do? Do you know how much that work would cost if a professional (even a low-paid immigrant) were doing it? If you’re still holding onto any resentment about GG living at your expense, I honestly think that you should consider all this.

Reading between the lines (and according to LR’s version), I gather that Mimi, LR, and GG are all / have all – for many years – been putting emotional and physical energy into caring for [oh hell! Let's not be shy about using this word: LOVING] (among others) one child who is not related to any of them biologically – your son by your ex-wife.

While walking into town to my Internet connection today, without your posts in front of my eyes (but they’ve been in my thoughts for the 2 days since I first read them, believe me), I was thinking of writing “If any of you – Maca, GG, LR, [and now I’ll have to add Mimi] don’t consider all of the children involved to be part of the family of each of the adults… then there’s no hope for you”. Now that I’ve accessed this thread, I see that your signature is ‘" NO WORDDIES BE HAPPY"- My 2 year old baby girl’ Now, I happen to know that this 2 (now 3) year old isn’t your biological daughter. But she’s still “My 2 year old baby girl”. So there IS hope for all of you after all.

[MrFarFromRight]

The whole of the comment I'm going to quote from should be read by both of you, Maca and LR. Real wisdom! I could "quote" the whole thing. But I want to highlight:

Originally Posted by Ilove2men

This back and forth needs to stop. Someone (both actually) needs to realize the destructive cycle you both have created and put the emergency brakes on. Stop everything immediately. Separate. Deal with your own stuff seperatley. Scream, curse, blame, cry, get all the crazy out (alone) so you can breathe and see clearly, and understand yourself and where you are at and contemplate where the other person is at emotionally. It will help with communicating. It will let you control the beast that both of you have right now inside of you.

Both of you stop focusing on what the other person has done or is doing. Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words. It's time to accept accountability without expectation of reciprocation.

And this:

Originally Posted by Ilove2men

Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.

Originally Posted by Ilove2men

Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.

Originally Posted by Ilove2men

Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.

Originally Posted by Ilove2men

Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.

Originally Posted by Ilove2men

Stop adding "But you" at the end of every sentence. "but you" nullifies all healing, all accountability, all heartfelt meaning to your words.

cannot be repeated too often.

[nycindie]

LR, I actually woke up this morning thinking about you and Maca.

I think Ilove2men has some very valid points and excellent advice. Lately it seems there has been a bit of raking each other over the coals somewhat, alongside the love and pain, and I think some real space (in both time and proximity) would be very healing to both of you.

[ray]

I concur on the space. For awhile, I kept trying to hash things out with O. Eventually it became clear that it was going nowhere. Obviously I will not be getting back with him but the space has been so healing. Whatever happens with him at least I know now that I'm doing better. It's helped me to form a more broad perspective and sift out the feelings and facts. I think there comes a point when conversations just become highly unproductive.

[LovingRadiance]

I agree as well.

Taking space hasn't ever been a threat for me. It's simply not been an opportunity due to the percieved threat to others.

I'll leave my response at that.




In update news;

I asked Maca to consider an agreement between us for however long we are working through this.
I was clear that I need SOME sort of agreement-and I wrote out what I thought needed to be included in it-and asked him to let me know what he felt needed to be included as well.

We're supposed to finalize it on Saturday.

Two of the key things I asked for are

We don't discuss our relationship problems except for one day a week for a maximum of two hours, unless in a counseling appointment.

We don't discuss my relationship with Chris outside of counseling.

There's no way to tell so soon how well that will work. But, hopefully it will allow for a little breathing room for both of us.

[AnnabelMore]

Originally Posted by LovingRadiance

I.E.

Abandoning me to deal w/his ex-wife and her threats against myself and my children, including two attempts at kidnapping my kids.

Abandoning me to deal with his son who was abusive due to emotional trauma caused by his parents b.s.

Accusing me of cheating for 2 years before I ever did ANYTHING to warrant the accusation.

Going out to the bars 3-4 nights a week to play pool with the guys "cause he was on a league" and expecting me to take care of the kids-but I'm not allowed to go out without him.

Telling me he wasn't going to pursue a relationship with someone-then doing it behind my back.

Telling me he wasn't going to take said person to our house (his choice, not my demand) and then doing it behind my back.

Starting a sexual relationship, making out etc-behind my back.

Creating boundary rules for a "poly boundary list agreement" and then breaking them.

It's easy for him to say that I should just understand when he makes a "mistake", but it's not something he will do in return.....

I've got to admit. Every sentence in here scares me. LR, why are you still working on this? Because you love him? There are a lot of people out there worth loving. Because you made a promise? It's a sad fact of life that promises get broken sometimes.

He's left the house, you're going through therapy, those are good steps. But you've questioned on here why you're still trying and I am questioning it right along with you. This doesn't seem healthy.

Leaving is a very, very hard thing to do. Even harder, I'm sure, in a situation like this where there are kids involved. I left my lover of just three years, a quarter of the time you've been with Maca, and it was the hardest thing I've ever done. But it was also the best thing I've ever done.

If you do decide to leave.... your life will go on. Everyone involved will figure out how to heal and it might be a whole heck of a lot better than this situation which seems to me to be very worryingly putting your health (exposing you sexually, second-hand, to people without your agreement) and your heart (verbal abuse, promises broken and retracted, constant about-faces, disrespect) at constant risk.

[nycindie]

Originally Posted by LovingRadiance

Taking space hasn't ever been a threat for me. It's simply not been an opportunity due to the percieved threat to others.

But see, LR, even just saying this is a way of blaming someone else. Your mindset is self-victimizing, if that is a term. If you want space, need space, take it. Instead, you're always giving yourself and Maca homework to do and contracts to sign. And then you get upset when he goes back and forth. Just work on you and let go of hopes and expectations.

I suggest you read Ilove2men's post again and again and again - carefully, very carefully, line by line, and let it sink in. Lots of wisdom there.

[Ilove2men]

NYC, I thought the very same thing when I read that. It's deflection. There's that saying about doing the same thing and expecting different results. Contracts at this point are just setting everyone up for failure. I don't think either of you are stable enough to follow through. Until each of you can get ahold of yourselves you won't be able to break the cycle that you have both created.

I bowed out of posting on this board because ... Well I have no poly relationship to speak about. My poly is done, but I have continued to pop in and check on those I have grown to care about. It saddens me that I have experience in this all too familiar toxic cycle. Seeing a couple I have grown to look up to going through this I couldn't not post.

[LovingRadiance]

Here's the baseline reality.

There isn't a way for us to have NO contact without totally fucking over at least one child.

So, we don't have a choice but to make an agreement to not discuss the shit that sends us spiraling through the nasty, painful, b.s cycle we've gotten into.

Yes, we could fuck over the one child who would lose everything if we did that. However, that one child deserves better-and he's going to get it-if it kills me.

Yes, I meant that-if it KILLS me.

I'm not sending this boy back to his mother.
I'm not making him leave his siblings-the only people he's TRULY bonded to, just because he's not mine.

If I had to suffer rape EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE for him to have the chances that he has now-becuase of me entering his life-I would.

Fortunately, I don't have to do that.

BUT, I do have to find a way to work around the issues in our lives and get along.
Stay in a poly dynamic? Not a requirement.
Stay married? Not a requirement.
Be lovers? Not a requirement.

Find a way to get along-that's a requirement and it has to happen RIGHT NOW, TODAY.

So, while I do understand what you are saying-no, I'm not taking the advice in full.

I found the only part I could take and used it.
We aren't discussing the issues between us unless we're with a therapist.

That means NOT AT ALL. No complaining, no bitching, no whining, no asking, no demanding.
It pretty much means "if you don't have anything nice to say, shut the fuck up" (not to you all, between he and I).

From what I gather from him-he thinks I'm dead on right on this topic. (there are a few things we have come to agree on implicitly over the years).

As for why I stay,
because to be flat honest-all of the things in that list are over and done. We've learned from them and we've grown from them and they aren't continuing.

My point in bringing them up wasn't to malign the man that Maca is today.
My point was that we ALL fucked up and we ALL need some grace.

Maca is struggling because he doesn't want to offer GG grace, but he has been willing to accept it for himself. That's self-rightous and it's wrong. Furthermore-he knows it is. Like it or not, he knows it's wrong. He just doesn't want it to be.

There is no doubt about the fact that I fucked Maca over by having the affair and I'm not even going to start defending myself over it. It was wrong, it was heartless and it was unfair. At the very least I could have simply said it was over, walked away and done what I thought I needed to do.
But I was selfish and I didn't go that route.

If Maca wants to be "just friends" and call it good on the marriage-so be it.
But, he still owes it to HIMSELF-to grant GG the grace he longs to have for himself. Because as long as he's holding a grudge, he can't FEEL that the grace has already been given.

As for who has done the most damage.
Who cares?
The damage was done.

I don't believe in "it's over".
There is no "over" unless you give up-and I don't give up.
So, while I respect the fact that other people believe that there is a point where you just have to walk away-I don't believe that, never have and if I ever do, that time isn't here yet. Thus, it's pointless to waste breath suggesting it.

Not that I don't grasp the heart of the suggestion, but the bottomline for me is that I know Maca's heart-and I know mine. Giving up isn't going to happen.