America

[Setxfamily]

Originally Posted by bella123456

I know this is an old thread, I just have one last question...

I don't understand why a government of a developed country fails to provide health care to it's people.

It feels like one of the most basic of human rights.

Was it there once and was taken away ?
Or, was it not established in the first place ?

And, do people fight for it, or have they given up fighting ?

What's the story ?
Appreciate it folks....looking to understand this place...

Okay this will be not be a simple explanation. For the full story you will need to do your own research. My spelling and typing is not always the best so please bear with me.

Actually we do have a national Health insurance program. Several in fact. They are called Medicare and Medicaid and many states also have their own in state programs such as CHiP for Texas and then there is the Government program of WIC for pregnant mothers and young children, There is also a federal ruling that all medical establishments that accept federal funds must accept anyone that needs emergency care at their ER rooms,. And most colleges and universities offer a medical care package to their students. So medical care is actually very radically accessible to anyone who needs or desires it.

The Obama medical insurance bill is not an insurance program is reality but a way to redistribute wealth and control people and information. What he and the other democrats seek to do is take or transfer more power to the government. They seek to put caps on how much a Dr. or medical specialist can make (communism), if you study the whole bill and understand our society you will see that it only really benefits a small percentage of our current society.

So far 14 states have applied for waivers to be excluded from this bill and 8 more have joined the waiting list. Over 400 companies have applied and received waivers from the bill. If this is suppose to be so great why are waivers even being considered much less granted? This bill is not going to save the average person money but cost us a ton more. Already this year my family and I have seen an increase of over 12% to our insurance costs and during the Presidents run for office we were promised that our rates would never increase.

I will stop here due to the fact that I can quote a 100 reasons why this bill is not good and answers to your question.

[Ariakas]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

BTW, I take offense at your assertion that alcoholics and drug abusers "create their own health problems" and therefore don't deserve health care. My daughter has borderline personality disorder and one of her issues is a compulsion to mask her extreme anxiety by self medicating. She has lived in 3 sober houses. One of the directors told me that most of the ppl in her house had mental health issues, which made them turn to alcohol or substances.

I am sorry you take offense. Bt I am well aware of the statistics. My parents and even wife have their problems with OCD and anxiety (amongst a lot of other mental challenges) in the end they can still chose not to. My parent mental illnesses caused them to over eat and become addicted to food which in turn made them fat then obese then dead. My father killed himself by eating himself to death. He did that, not the disease.

I believe the number is 30% more likely actually. And everyone I know who has OCD etc, tries to not even start because they know the chances of addiction greatly increases. The immediate effect release from their personal torture of anxiety and OCD is immediately relieved by alcohol in ways medication can't. It's amazingly powerful and dangerous.

So sorry you took offense, but the problem is still the same. This doesn't dismiss my point. They needed better help before the addiction. Maybe more knowledge in advance of how addictive they can become. But in the end alcoholics and druggies are a burden on society... As are overeaters... As are all those people who use the emergency room for crap problem and end up cock blocking peep who need help. Fix the health care system from he ground up and maybe it will cost less overall...people need to take more personal responsibility for their health...

[CODE][/CODE]

I also should have clarified. I wasn't going to give my big ass speak about health care as I have debated this a lot in life and I have a huge number of Olomouc and idea. My point wasn't they didn't deserve health care, I believe there should be a premium. Whether that is found in a fast food tax (etc etc etc) I dont care where it is found. But if you treat your body like crap in any way, you should have to pay more.

[Magdlyn]

Originally Posted by Setxfamily

Actually we do have a national Health insurance program. Several in fact. They are called Medicare and Medicaid...

Yes, for the indigent and elderly. Many health care institutions and individual doctors do not accept these programs, however. In my state, many technically say they accept MassHealth, but then you can still get turned away, because the clinics will submit your bill, but the state still won't pay.

and many states also have their own in state programs such as CHiP for Texas and then there is the Government program of WIC for pregnant mothers and young children...

WIC (women, infants and children) is a food program, not a medical service.

There is also a federal ruling that all medical establishments that accept federal funds must accept anyone that needs emergency care at their ER rooms,. And most colleges and universities offer a medical care package to their students.

My daughters were offered health care thru their community college, at $700 a year. Almost as much money as tuition. And other Western countries also offer free college educations! Health care and education are for the elite, not the lower working class.

People die for lack of health care in this country every day.

[Setxfamily]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Yes, for the indigent and elderly. Many health care institutions and individual doctors do not accept these programs, however. In my state, many technically say they accept MassHealth, but then you can still get turned away, because the clinics will submit your bill, but the state still won't pay.

I agree many will not accept the payment and I do not have a reason on why to everything but for many the reason is that the states and governments do not or will not pay what the services are worth or even close to that the equipment and meds are worth.

[/B]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

WIC (women, infants and children) is a food program, not a medical service.

In my state and many places they can get basic medical services as well.

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

My daughters were offered health care thru their community college, at $700 a year. Almost as much money as tuition. And other Western countries also offer free college educations! Health care and education are for the elite, not the lower working class.

$700 thats pretty cheap actually. I pay more than that for myself through my employer, Add my family in and you it is twice the amount.

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

People die for lack of health care in this country every day.

Yes and many of them are illegals, Choose not to have insurance, some cannot afford it but it is there if needed. Do I feel that it should be more avaliable yes. Do I think we need to have some better insurance reform and all YES. do I think that this is the bill for us NO!!! If you actually have read it like I have you will understand fully how much of a travesty this bill really is. HOW much damage it is doing and about to do to our way of life. Do you want facts for I can provide many of them, I can dump a lot of them here but to many it will do no good for they are all focused on one thing FREE INSURANCE. Nothing is ever truly FREE! Someone has to pay for it. Right now it takes 8 people working full time to pay for ONE person on a government sponsered policy. You do the math. Study the bill and you might actually learn something surprising. Plus I do not think that I should be forced to buy something I do not feel that I need.

[Magdlyn]

Originally Posted by Ariakas

I am sorry you take offense. But I am well aware of the statistics. My parents and even wife have their problems with OCD and anxiety (amongst a lot of other mental challenges) in the end they can still chose not to.

Yes, my daughter technically "can" choose to not use, but it's taken over 5 years of intensive medical/psychological health care for her to become strong enough to be *able* to choose. And she is far from out of the woods yet. We still live on eggshells anticipating another meltdown. I know you are also an alcoholic and went thru a lot of shit to quit recently. But you don't need to be on 3 expensive medications just to get through the day like she does (afaik).

I am sorry about your parents' fatal obesity/eating disorders.

So sorry you took offense, but the problem is still the same. This doesn't dismiss my point. They needed better help before the addiction. Maybe more knowledge in advance of how addictive they can become.

Haha! In a perfect world. She was a cutter, hid it from the family from age 14 to 16, long before she started drinking...

Fix the health care system from he ground up and maybe it will cost less overall

Yes, I agree with that.

I also should have clarified. I wasn't going to give my big ass speak about health care as I have debated this a lot in life and I have a huge number of Olomouc

What is Olomouc?

and idea. My point wasn't they didn't deserve health care, I believe there should be a premium. Whether that is found in a fast food tax (etc etc etc) I dont care where it is found. But if you treat your body like crap in any way, you should have to pay more.

How would you enforce that? My daughter can't afford to pay *more* because of her illness! She's so sick she can't even hold down a job consistently, much less pay extra for health care.

[SNeacail]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

My daughters were offered health care thru their community college, at $700 a year.

Sign me up that's 30% of what I pay per person for bare bones coverage.

I'm all for scrapping the whole thing and re-building it from the ground up. I'm not willing to pay more taxes for a duct tape solution, but a real, effective program, sure.

[bella123456]

I can see such diversity in opinion. I guess that's a natural case of differences in backgrounds and history. It's obscene that someone has to pay $60,000 for help though, especially if they were out of work or stuck in a hard place....Probably at the time they most need compassion....in the face of ill health, or facing chemotherapy....or invasive surgery.


I believe health care is a fundamental human right. If that is one's first premise, the capacity to suggest it's dependant on:

You take care of yourself.


Who judges that ?



1. If you eat too much, should that exclude you ?

2. If you drink too much ?

3. If you smoked a couple of joints in high school and that has shown a link to depression/mental health problems

4. If you slept / or sleep with someone of the same sex ? (that caused aids in the 80's, the media would have caused us to believe)

5. You drive too fast on the highway ?

6. Do you spend too much time in the sun ?

7. Do you have multiple sexual partners ?

8. Do you have enough fresh fruit and vegetable in your diet ?


I don't feel it can be argued as a conditional "privilege" based on how "good" you have been, that suggests a setting of standards I don't like. Nor your capacity to pay. All people deserve health care and we are creatures of compassion, being human is what entitles one...to care, and be cared for.

Just my slightly pink opinion


I've found the insights valuable - Thanks

Gotta run...plane to catch.

excitement, excitement !

[Ariakas]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

What is Olomouc?

No clue, I can't even remember context. My ipad decided to fix a word for me.