Monogamy...huh?

[redpepper]

I remember watching that with you... not that I am a good source.

Just to shake it up more. I believe I remember seeing them have sex with their children too

Did we watch that with LB? Was it a library video? We watch so many science library videos they all blur after a time.

[redpepper]

I think it might of been "the last great ape" Nova doc.

[Penny]

My understanding is that they do fight less amongst themselves than chimps.

Humans, monogamous or otherwise, are pretty violent and have a long history of infanticide. I don't think poly will save the world, but I don't think monogamy is gonna do it either.

[BlackUnicorn]

Ah, bonobos, the crown jewel of God's creation! Let's not get me started on bonobos. Let's instead read this delightful article by Mr. Frans de Waal, a famed zoologist and bonobo enthusiast par excellence!

I have to quote myself now:

"Bonobos are the close cousins of both humans and chimpanzees, who surprisingly show very different behaviour patterns from both us and the chimps. In short, bonobos seem to have taken to heart the hippy byword 'Make love, not war'. Male bonobos tolerate both females and infants well, and although the discussion is still raging on, it seems that indeed females lead the bonobo societies through forming close, mutually co-operative alliances between non-related, adult females. Males inherit heir mother's rank and stay with their mother's group, whereas females migrate from their birth group upon maturity (this is a feature shared with the chimps, however, with totally different social consequences). In any case, bonobos are not as hierarchical animals as chimps, and use sex and grooming to relieve tension between members of the group instead of violence and dominance.

See http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html for

Bonobo Sex and Society

The behavior of a close relative challenges assumptions about male supremacy in human evolution

by

Frans B. M. de Waal

(Originally published in the March 1995 issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pp. 82-88)

A more scientific article, where de Waal shows that bonobos engage in sex for other than reproductive purposes, appear to use sex as way to relieve intra-group tension, and speculates that non-reproductive use of sex might have evolved to enable more peaceful and co-operative male-female relationships (in less-scientific terms, female bonobos distract males with sex and help themselves during intercourse to the food the male has gathered) can be found in

de Waal, Frans B. M. (1995): Sex as an Alternative to Aggression in the Bonobo. In Sexual Nature, Sexual Culture (Paul R. Abramson & Steven D. Pinkerton, eds.), pp. 37-56. Chicago/London: University of Chicago Press."

End bonobo ramble. Hope the link works.

[BlackUnicorn]

Originally Posted by SvartSvensk

Is your hypothesis then that human behavior is non-evolutionary? It's important to keep science value-neutral in order to better understand the world and our species. Setting out under the assumption that men and women are exactly equal in all respects is fallacious - we are a sexually dimorphic species in form, and chemically dimorphic also - science has shown clearly the effect that different chemical landscapes have on the way our brains operate. I'll agree that drawing instant conclusions to support traditional gender roles is nonscientific and stupid, obviously... but I think it's important to consider our evolution when analyzing behavior.

Nope, my hypothesis is that ALL behavior in modern humans has an evolutionary basis but the exact basis is anyone's guess.

Also, human sexual dimorphism is less severe than in many other apes, mainly the gorilla and the orangutan. This I think offers good proof FOR (single-standard serial) monogamy developing at some phase in human evolution, or at least lessened competition between males.

[BlackUnicorn]

Okay, this is my first attempt at multi-quoting.

Originally Posted by Ariakas

I find most of these points interesting but moot. My parents were happily monogamous. To argue against monogamy throws it in the face of those people.

Argue for your right to be non-monogamous, not "monos" misdirected belief that monogamy isn't natural.

I have to disagree with you. I would never argue that monogamy is NOT natural for humans. It obviously is because we witness it in human populations. Arguing that something is 'more' or 'less' natural than something else, is, I agree, sort of pointless if sometimes entertaining.

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

Along a similar myth of seeing some animals as beautifully peaceful intelligent creatures is the documented studies of Bottle Nose Dolphins who are almost unique in nature for apparently killing for pleasure.

I also heard that Bottle-Noses rape people! The males appereantly misinterpret humans petting them as an invitation to mate. Bad Bottle-Noses!

Originally Posted by redpepper

Just to shake it up more. I believe I remember seeing them have sex with their children too

Yup, the second de Waal article actually counts the frequencies of an infant bonobo girl having sex with others in the group. The adults and juveniles, however, never seemed to initiate these events. Also in chimps, young females who are not yet or only sporadically fertile initiate sexual encounters with older males. Yet another proof that at least in humans, bonobos and chimps sex serves non-reproductive purposes.

[Ariakas]

Originally Posted by BlackUnicorn

I have to disagree with you. I would never argue that monogamy is NOT natural for humans. It obviously is because we witness it in human populations. Arguing that something is 'more' or 'less' natural than something else, is, I agree, sort of pointless if sometimes entertaining.

You are arguing off the premise that I am arguing that only one of the two (and many other options) are capable of being natural.

I don't hold that stance. I don't think one is better or worse, or one is more natural or not more natural. I don't believe natural has to be ONE thing.

I guess I am relationship-nostic (hows that for a completely made up falste word)... I believe monogamy is natural for some, and poly is natural for others...I believe its the people that are fucking it all up with their religious and pseudo scientific views.

Its the zealots of the world that annoy the fuck out of me. Religiouns, pagan, poly, scientific etc.. zealots are annoyances...

[Derbylicious]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

According to Sex at Dawn, bonobos do not practice infanticide. Offspring are cared for by the tribe, and even nursed by multiple "mothers." Knowing what I do about lactation, this means the infant/toddler bonobo drinks in the DNA from several mothers, thereby, to an extent, actually becoming biologically the child of more than one mother!

Yes there are cells (and with the cells DNA) in breast milk but drinking the breast milk doesn't incorporate that DNA into the child's system. The cells are simply digested and become nutrients for the child.

[nycindie]

Originally Posted by Ariakas

Its the zealots of the world that annoy the fuck out of me. Religiouns, pagan, poly, scientific etc.. zealots are annoyances...

Me too!

[BlackUnicorn]

Originally Posted by Ariakas

You are arguing off the premise that I am arguing that only one of the two (and many other options) are capable of being natural.

Yup, sorry, totally misread you.