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  #21  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:17 AM
koifish koifish is offline
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The real sticky point is the people who have already bought tickets to fly in. I have no idea what to do with them if we elope. I feel like we need to give them some sort of significant experience or they will be disappointed and maybe angry.

My fiance and I both have college degrees, yet we don't have much to put on our resumes because he played internet poker to fund his global travels for 5 years, and I've been sick. My father's has been the only place I could work for. Though I seem to be improving, I would literally fall asleep under the desk, while I was supposed to be working. I've misplaced hundreds of dollars because I was so tired I couldn't pay attention to things. I did and do have my strong suits. But not super employable for a while there. My fiance I think will skidaddle as soon after the wedding as possible, and I will follow as soon as I can to the land of other jobs.
  #22  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:48 AM
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We sent out our lovely invitations that we designed ourselves weeks ago. Now everything has changed and they seem pretty irrelevant.
It may FEEL as if everything has changed (and for the worse), but you needn't maintain that thought and feeling. It is possible to stand tall and strong in this, to be a living example of not-shame (I don't want to say "shamelessness"). Loving multiply is NOT something to be ashamed of. Standing tall sends that message loud and clear. Running in fear or shame misses this difficult opportunity. Bannish shame and fear from your hearts, stand tall, and be true to yourselves. Let the cards fall where they may.
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  #23  
Old 03-31-2011, 06:25 AM
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Oh that is so too bad! I feel for you... hang in there... you can do it.

When I married PN we had a Wiccan ceremony and the relatives on his side walked on the beach (camping wedding at a park) while we had our hideous pagan ritual his uncle called me up the night before and wanted me to come over to show him the ceremony we had written up. WHAT THE FUCK? Who the hell did he think he was? On the eve of my wedding. I was livid. It has taken years for them to accept us. They had no idea that we were actually already married. They knew that we were not having a legal wedding but didn't think we had already made it legal. They even wrote on the card that Jesus would not accept us until we married in a church and signed the proper papers!

The whole thing was uncomfortable just in the prep work. The actually day was fantastic because we decided to walk in with pride and completely fall into it just for us, no one else. We were confident and happy and ignored anyone that came in our way that was negative. I remember just saying excuse me and stepping out of the way and walking on when someone started in on my relationship with Jesus and how they were concerned... I flat out ignored them. It was my day damned it... not theirs!

Good luck. *hugs*
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  #24  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:16 AM
koifish koifish is offline
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Redpepper, it is so good to hear about your wedding day and how you ignored the busy bodies and the arbiters of religious and social propriety.

I don't know where this will lead, but I'm trying to get an idea from my mom about how everyone is taking the news and how they are regarding the wedding.

Regardless of how they are taking this, I don't believe I want to marry in front of my father and stepmother, so it's still looking like elopement for the ceremony. I hope everyone will still chip in for the reception.

I also just don't want anything weird to happen. Like somebody piping up about our private business during the ceremony.
  #25  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:33 AM
koifish koifish is offline
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I have to admit that I feel ashamed. Ashamed that other people know we've been doing this. My fiance is good at holding his head high. He'll even tell his parents, he says, before the wedding, and he doesn't worry about the consequences.

Me, I'm hanging my head right now. I am afraid for his family to know. They're important to me and their disapproval would bother me a whole lot. I like them more than most of my family.

I'm afraid of the unknown of telling them weeks before our wedding. I just have a hard time believing everything will be okay. It feels more like stepping off a cliff.
  #26  
Old 03-31-2011, 12:00 PM
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I'm going to be rad here and offer two different (but not diametrically opposed) kinds of advice: The quick and "easy" one is to decide to let it all wash over you. "What's done is done and there's no good in crying over spilt milk. Make the best of a bad job..." Be polite to all and avoid those who are nasty to you. Step around them, as somebody has already advised.

The other is to go on the offensive: out yourselves to everybody else and hold your heads high. (I think that River's the only other member who's suggested this.) Give your girlfriend a prominent role in the wedding and show that you are all proud of each other. I know that this is the really rad alternative, but consider these advantages:

1) You're stealing your sniper's ammunition.

2) You don't have to WORRY about people (especially your fiancÚ's family and all the grandparents) finding out from the sneak.

3) You're not going to make your in-laws feel that you were being sneaky and dishonest by keeping quiet until after they'd paid for the show. The way things are now, they will find out someday. Wouldn't it be better to be honest and trust to their affection? Otherwise they will resent.

4) You have the chance to inform all your invited guests, let them decide whether they want to celebrate and share your joy on this day, or decide that it's a travesty they can't condone.

5) Those who have already bought plane tickets have the chance to choose between
i) trying for a partial refund (the sooner the better);
ii) flying but going to a theme park in your area (?) so that the money didn't all go to waste; or
iii) demonstrating that they do love you and want to be there for you.

6) Opens up whole new possibilities for the reception. I mean, I really like the Quaker-inspired service idea, but afterwards... hey, let's party! (No I don't mean an orgy, but after a "catastrophe", there's sometimes a euphoric high. Ride it and let your friends ride it.)

7) It lets you send out [rush-job / e-mail] codicils to the original invitations, explaining your continued love, your continued commitment (to each other and to those who choose to remain your friends), and your continued wish to share this special day with them. Add that anybody who plans to attend and be nasty would do better to stay away because
a) you've already received so many messages of loving support that any would-be-abusive guests are going to find themselves mightily outnumbered;
b) you've hired as bouncers the toughest honchos from a specialist firm called "Poly Gorillas"; or
c) use your imagination! Don't let little quibbles about truth and fib stop you.

My gay brother came out to me and to another brother. Then he was outed to our parents by 2 arch-conservative brothers. After that he told me: "You know? In a way it's a relief, because now I can stop worrying every time that I go on a Gay Pride march that they might see me on their television screen..."

Whatever you decide, I agree wholeheartedly with others' comments that this is YOUR day. Whatever you decide, take the reins in your hands, and don't let other people highjack YOUR wedding. Even if your future in-laws withdraw financial backing, YOU decide how to economise without cheapening the occasion. (One idea would be to take up a collection - small as it may be - among the friends who ARE supportive.)

It's quite apparent that there are absolutely no dissenters on here to the proposition that your father is a real arsehole. So I don't really even need to have written that. YES I DID! For my own good. It feels good to have chimed in on that one!

I assume that your mother is either more supportive or at least less condemning than your father, seeing as she hasn't withdrawn the offer of her home as the venue. Why not invite her along to talk to the future in-laws? You know: something like, "Well, I can tell you that it was a shock to me, too! But I'm coming to terms, I'm coming to terms. I'm not going to stop loving them at this stage, and I hope you agree with me on that..."

I was always able to discuss with my conservative-but-caring mother my support for my gay brother's relationship. (I told her that in my opinion it was the healthiest one in the whole family.) But as soon as my dogmatic ("Anybody who disagrees with me is just plain wrong!") father would walk into the room, I'd shut up, knowing it would have been wasted breath... Ironic then to be told that he "had a thing for men in uniform".
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  #27  
Old 03-31-2011, 12:28 PM
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The three of us are getting along well in the last 2-3 weeks, but historically our relationship has been fraught with either she or I having serious freakouts and my very talented fiance holding it together. She almost broke up with us again 3 weeks ago and my fiance put things back together. But I was ready to let her amicably break up with us. She has the same issues come up over and over and they are legitimate and probably not fixable except in the very long term. She wants to be on completely equal standing with us right now, and always has, so the wedding sort of constantly upsets her. We were engaged 9 months before we met her.

When it's good with us, it's good. But that has been well under half the time.


I don't know if I am cut out for this.
Okay, this was something that immediately came to my mind but I didn't want to push it, since it seemed you were already in a bad place.

But yeah, incertainty about the future of your relationship with gf isn't going to help you weather out this storm.

So she wants equality, always has wanted equality, and you think that's a legit desire to have. No argument there. You all decided to get involved knowing you were engaged to be married to your fiance and not having any plans to change that. How did you discuss this thing with the gf at the time? Was she thinking that wedding wasn't going to happen? Was the whole relationship so tumultous that you thought it was better not to risk it?

Getting married in most of world's jurisdictions puts you in an entirely different footing with any additional partners in the relationship. You know that. Your gf knows that. You all have known this from day 1. So when was this discussed and resolved in a way everyone can be happy with?

May I ask how much of your current emotional distress is incertainty about is your relationship with the third so good and solid that it's worth risking social acceptance and support over? Not being judgemental, just thinking.
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  #28  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:07 PM
koifish koifish is offline
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Hi BlackUnicorn,
Good questions.

My uncertainty about gf is absolutely central to all of this. I don't know if this is worth it and without being positive that it's worth it, it's awfully hard to jump into telling everyone and alienating a whole bunch of people right before our wedding. I was was expecting to have lifelong relationships with a majority of the people at our wedding.

My fiance is a savant at making people feel better and making things okay between people.

GF from the get go wanted to be included and considered and having the same "status" as we had for each other. We wanted these things for her too, but I especially had trouble giving these things so quickly. She actually virtually moved in with us at the very beginning and wanted us to tell our families very quickly.

It came as a sad shock to her that I ended up feeling crowded and overwhelmed with her moving into our house suddenly. She wanted the sort of equality very early on where she could be as present in our house as we were.

Our position was that this kind of equality cannot be extended so quickly by us. That the relationship my fiance and I had with each other simply was currently different from the one we had with her by virtue of the fact that we had known each other for well over a decade, but had only known her a little while.

My fiance is a master of smoothing things over, getting someone to laugh and feel affection again when they are upset and alienated. We told her that equality was something we believed in and were moving towards, but wasn't something we could choose to manufacture because of the inherent differences in our relationships, such as they were at the time.

All of her freakouts and understandable dissatisfaction along the way seriously freaked me out and kept me from getting close to her. So she and my fiance became very close, while my relationship with her was always more contentious. So moving towards equality has been very rocky.

My fiance has very successfully applied emotional bandaids along the way and I have been moved to help him because I do care for her and I know that he loves her and would be very sad to lose her. He told her a few days ago that everything would be okay after the wedding. She wouldn't worry about us being married so much after the wedding hoopla had died down. I think she wanted to believe that.

Last night she was upset again and saying that it would be even worse after the wedding because my fiance and I would be seen as legitimate (if "bad") by society, while she would be seen as merely an illegitimate add on to us(and "bad").

Is this worth risking my relationships to my family over?

Last edited by koifish; 03-31-2011 at 03:19 PM.
  #29  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:48 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Originally Posted by koifish View Post
GF from the get go wanted to be included and considered and having the same "status" as we had for each other. We wanted these things for her too, but I especially had trouble giving these things so quickly. She actually virtually moved in with us at the very beginning and wanted us to tell our families very quickly.
This is a big red flag for me. Could it have been the gf that told your parents?
  #30  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:54 PM
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Is this worth risking my relationships to my family over?
The way I see it, if any family member or friend abandons you because you or your fiance -- or both -- love someone else, ... well, maybe you don't really need them in your life so much. Tell them all that this is YOUR life to live, not theirs. But it is clear, Koifish, that there is an inner step you need to take to get there -- and that step is beyond shame. (You have admitted that you feel shame.) Shame will stop you for standing up for your own innocence and dignity.

There is never shame in loving. Never. And anyone who would pour shame down on one who loves should be the one to be ashamed.

Here's a ceremony to have before the marriage ceremony. Go somewhere outdoors where having a fire is safe. Burn a representation of your shame and fear about being true to yourselves. Do this together. And when your flamable representation is ashes, be done with it. Burn it completely.
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Last edited by River; 03-31-2011 at 06:31 PM.
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