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Old 03-28-2011, 09:24 PM
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Default Staring into the Fallacy of the Reflection I Believed was Me...

I'm sorry my love, FlameKat ... that I haven't mustered the courage to appear in the forum again until now.

Where do I begin...? (some of what I write here; I may have mentioned previously.. so again I apologize for studdering)

For so long; since I was very young I have always been so certain of who I was, I am and I could be. I've always been confident in my ability to decern right and wrong and that I would never be shaken from my path by the pressures, temptations and beleifs of others ... so naive ... If I have such a clear direction how come at times, I feel like I'm spinning uncontrollably in a vacuum here in this moment?

I've always had the common sense to know that what I beleive in and aspire to doesnt exactly fit in this place we call reality... I hold on tightly to honor, honesty, sacrifice, compassion, humility, courage, devotion, and most of all the importance of love. Each of these aspects are colored by the perfection they are portrayed in fairytales and the like; not in the way they fit into our everday lives. I also have recognized my black and white point of view; if one chooses to do something and says they will ... they hold to it ; and if faced with hurting another by holding to that oath; find a way to turn that pain upond ones self and protect those around you.

....to pause for a moment ... yes I know how much of a lunatic I sound like.
I have never hidden my views; despite any mockary or disagreements... that said I also have done my best not to impose my beliefs on others. But I admit I am guilty of judging others from time to time.... eveyone is... whether they can say it or not. I wish I could cut that piece of me away ... but I can't... it is a part of me just as much as the qualities I like in myself.

Anyways... sorry ... damn I ramble.

These past few years I feel Like i've been in a whirlwind... at first laying mired in a marsh of my own misery from my previous marriage... feeling unloved, taken for granted and worthless. Then events happened that caused me to open my eyes again; begin to struggle free. In that struggle I met an angel (FlameKat) that helped steady my ascent; and I steady hers on her departure from her own sorrow. It was then that I no longer felt alone, I saw a point to ... being and my heart started to fill with hopes and desires again. Together we conquered many battles and obstacles; healing each others old wounds ... trusting and having faith that neither would let the other go for a second.

Regardless of the tough times happening around us, and how far apart we were from each other .. things always felt a constant good; with no doubt. In the time prior to meeting my angel and in the first strides of our ascent; I had already begun to lose touch with most of my friends; only speaking with a handful of them and my family of course. It bothered me daily that I was letting my friends slip away; but was not at a place in my mind, heart or soul to focus on exploring those paths. To be clear I did not have any huge rupture in any of my friendships... it was just simply the passage of time from when we last spoke that increased the gap.

Because I hold such importance to how I treat others I woudl battle inside myself that there would be a reason for them to hate me for doing this and that they were better off in my absence. Also I found myself wanting to focus only on FlameKat and our children ... to establish a storng nuturing foundation for us all and then work on rekindling old relationships.

Without rambling and being blunt here is a breakdown some of the events:
- 10 year Relationship with a hypocondriac woman with low self esteem that dwelled in misery(Married for 4 of those) Also in those ten years there was not one that wnet by with out some major tragedy. I accepted that it was my responsibility to look after my wife and child; that my happiness was irrelevant and that no other womanwould want me anyways ... because I can't even help my wife find happiness in the day.
-My 8 year old son was born from this relationship and is in large part the reason I was able to hold on as long as I did. I love him so.
-Started talking to others and realized that I was missing something; simple compliments made me feel something I hadnt in a long time. I wanted to feel loved again.
-Thougt a great deal on whether I wanted to work on fixing my marriage; spoke to a counseller and came to the conlusion that it was over already inside me.
-Told my wife I wanted a divorce... she pleaded for a 2nd chance... btu from my perspective it would have been the 25th chance... I had always expressed things that bothered me... obviously went unheard.
-I moved in with my brother while trying to support the family bills and the house she still lived in, on my own as she held onto her finances.
-I got involved with a woman overseas online with even more problems than my ex-wife had.
-The weight of debt and the pain I had caused her and my son grew to much for me to bear and finding out my new romance had cheated on me (discovered by pictures posted online) .... I made an attempt on my life.
-The result caused my ex-wife to be more willing to sort things out and help me pay the bills until things were finalized. Also there was a strange calm inside myself; not sure what happened... but I did nto see things as so unattainable anymore.
-Weeks after, I met FlameKat online. She was still going through a great deal of pain and trouble in her marriage. I offered support; as did she help me to find my footing again. Through this sharing a strong bond and friendship was forged. Although I admit there was something between us that immediatly drew us together ... somthing very deep ... best I can describe it was ... that despite how many thousands of miles that seperated us we could feel a presence from each other ... tangible at times ... we still do to this day and it has only grown with time.
-FlameKat sperated from her husband; this was a very frightening time for us both.
-I ended my relationship with the other woman overseas and a few weeks later FlameKat and I decided to commit to one another in a LDR.
-Her eldest daughter did not respond well to this and fixed her up on a date with a local friend. When I texted her that I came home that night; FlameKat ended her date and rushed home. She told me right away where she had been and explained she never stopped thinking of me ... and that she wnet on the date to test herself... so she knew she could do this LDR. I admit because of my past relationship experiences this in the first minutes scared me; be I quickly felt a ease and we were the better for it.
-There was another friend late that didnt want to accept our LDR and continued to compete for FlameKats affection. Because of his lack of respect for us; FlameKat decided on her own accord to stop speaking with him.
-A few monthes later I settled my divorce ammicably
-I made my first trip across the world to see the woman and children I had fallen in love with. It was one of the happiest times in my life; only wishing I could have taken my own son with me. I was able to meet FlameKats friends and family... it all went so well. We spent a month together.
-In an effort to get to know my best friend; FlameKat started communicating by email to T (As he is called in FlameKat's posts)
-FlameKat soon followed after me travelling across the world to visit my home. Again it was so amazing only wishing that she could have brought her daughters and son. She was able to meet my firends and family ... T included.
-The long stretch started to when we would see each other again; nearly a year later. In that time I started to express concern to FlameKat that T may have been getting attached to her; as he had not had the attention of a women for a very long time and the fact she was putting effort to write lengthy emails to him would have meant a great deal to him. She assured me that this was not the case. We had several of these discussions...
-As time went on T became more distant; as did FlameKat. To explain, T was the one friend I kept in touch with; we was my oldest friend that I had known since grade 5. We would get together each weekend that he was in the city. He works a 2 week on 2 week off rotation. He would usually call me once when out of the city. At this time seeing each other in person would stretch to a month sometimes and I would have to call several times to get a callback..... receiving an explanation for the distance as 'he was in a funk'. On the flipside....FlameKat and I are online with each other daily, for several hours at a time... behavior started to change when T started communicating more often and on MSN... Normally FlameKat would be up as soon as or before I got home from work and bubbling happy to see me... evening messaging me at work with flurries of kisses (i would always recipricate of course) Then she began sleeping in for hours; waking only an hour or so before she had to go out or I had to retire to bed for the night and when she was online with me... there was very little talking; she would distract herself with the tv or facebook or court documents ... not breaking for more than 5 minutes to look at me. at the time we had so much oging on with preparation for the family court proceedings... so I naturally assumed it was that and did not push to much to find out if anything else was bothering... even if I had.. I dont think that she woudl have realised at the time what it was.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:39 PM
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Default Staring into the Fallacy of the Reflection I Believed was Me... Part 2 of 5

-I started to dive bomb a little emotionally, feeling as though my best friend couldnt talk to me anymore and was avoiding me; but could talk to my girlfirend (and he said 'it isnt good that I talk to your GF more that you..') and also my girlfriend seemed to melancoly and distant whenever she was online with me (i'll clarify) there would be times I would wake up in the middle of the night and FlameKat left the video running from our call. Ihad just spent the previous evenings with her looking miserable and there she was beaming, laughing and giggling to who she was typing to. When I would left her know I was awake and inquired; I was always T she was talking to. I couldnt describe the hurt I felt in those moments.... but it was immense. But I struggled not to bring it up; because I trust FlameKat and T so much... that I felt it was just old fears and paranoia eating at me. We would have occasionaly discussions... but nothing to deep about it. I still had not considered the possibility that FlameKat was falling for T; only that he may have been for her. FlameKat also started getting more abrupt with me and less willing to talk about things bothering her as quickly; or too much time would pass and we would forget the subject.
-One of the rare times I was able to go out with T; he came by my place. FlameKat was on video call with me. He sat down to chat with her on video while I got ready. Once I returned to the laptop we all talked for a bit and T looked on; saying he felt like a 'voyuer'. Everything was ok until flameKat had to stand on the chair to get something above her laptop. putting her midsection and legs in front of the camera. This was nothign abnormally as we both had grown accustomed to the camera like it wasnt there. I looked over to T and he had an expression I have only seen when he oggles a woman he thinks looks good. He totally had that look of 'Oh yeah...I want that' I kep my cool; but when he noticed that I was looking at him he stammered and said something lame, about never seeing someone having to stand on a chair to reach a curtain before. I mentioned this to FlameKat later that day when I got home and she didnt react the way I had hoped. She blushed and had a somewhat pleased look on her face while trying to say it was nothing and down play it again.
- It was not long after that; during a night I woke up unexpectedly. FlameKat showed me a picture she was making. If depicted a Fairy (I call her my Pixie) with a Dragon in her hand under a giant Archway and down on the side of the picture were two wolves. I'll explain the meaning of the wolves; well how I interpreted them. FlameKat has always called me her 'Werewolf' and T usually puts a wolf as his profile pic on FB. so when I saw the TWO wolves it hit me again. Right after that she told me that 'The were no Boundaries between her and T' and asked if I knew what that meant.... further explained no mental, emotional or physical boundaries. I think I reacted as ... so do you what to go out with T? or are you feeling physically attracted? She said no at the time. I was left unsettled at that point and FlameKat was very uncertain as to how to define her relationship with T. What really scarred me was when I asked 'Do you Love Him? or Are you IN Love with Him?' FlameKat didn't know.

-Shakily we proceeded taking when upsets occured and doubts or questions arised. It was very up and down... but each time we always end on a positive strong note feeling an understanding between each other(FlameKat and myself that is) T still had not been very available and I could not raise my concers with him for fear I would insult the trust of our friendship.
-I would periodically suggest to FlameKat to try easing back on the frequency of communication between her and T; as she at one point was concerned for T's feelings. (Later finding out that she had been encouraging more contact from him rather than letting him gauge the amount on his own; knowing my discomfort about it)
-This finally mounted into T calling me and asking me what I wanted because what he was doing with FlameKat wasnt cool. Although it seemed like he was looking for my input or maybe just for me to get raging mad at him. But I didnt; I pleaded that we could all work this out and talk and things woudl be ok. I said that if it was any other guy; I would be terrified right now; but because it was him.... I trust him not to hurt me. He decided that he could no longer speak to me and FlameKat and the call ended shortly after. I was left feeling respect for what he had done and a calm ... knowing I would miss him so much but releif that the problem was over. (or so I thought .... again so naive) FalmeKat was calm when I told her and appeared focused on us.
-The next day when I got home from work FlameKat was in tears. She had just returned form drivng the kids to school and was almost in a car wreck from crying because she missed T so much and that he didnt say goodbye hurt so bad. I stuggled inside myself to be as supportive to FlameKat as I coudl as seeing her cry over the absence of my best friend tore me apart.(How she was reacting is how I would have imagined her to react losing me.... not another guy while still in love with me)
-FlameKat started wearing the ring she had bought to match a ring for T the day after. Until that point she only wore the promise ring I gave her on my first trip to Australia. The knife went deeper; but I did my best to not make it any more difficult for her; I could see the pain she was in.
-Not a great deal was dealt with, we had several talks and FlameKat respected my wishes to keep the communication barrier in place between her and T for now. I traveled back to Australia for the court case to appear on behalf of our future plans and show my commitment. The visit was up and down also; when discussions of T and me being confused that I was there in the flesh; focusing on our family and she was thinking of him. the ring was a physical reminder also; jabbing me when I would hold her hand and intimate contact. One of the discussions we had; were I expressed some of my anger... FlameKat said I made her feel like a Butterfly with its wings pinned to the wall to be analyzed. Gods I hated myself for that and there has been many times since that I have felt the same way for mading her feel unhappy by what I say or do. I am so understanding toward others .... DAMN IT WHY CAN'T I UNDERSTAND THIS?!

-On the day of my departure to return home. It was T's Bday. I was aware of this but was only wanting to focusing on the last few hours with FlameKat and the kids. Days after I return home I found out that she sent a BDay email in the last hours I was there. I was so upset. I asked her why she didnt tell me she wanted to send this after we had agreed to tell each other about any communication. She said she did not want it bothering her in those last hours and it was; also she didnt want to upset me and have a fight. I argued that I felt like an ass; I would have been fine with the BDay email if it could have been from us both ... a united front to tell him we both miss him. Not to spark the issue agian that he had left because of. It just fostered him not talking to me and having a reason to talk to her again. Some of my reasoning may have been flawed; but I think some is reasonable. Never had she done anything behind my back that was considered to likely bother me.

- Shortly there after FlameKat followed me back to Canada again for great 6 week visit. Again we still struggled with ups and downs and this is the time that FlameKat came to the realization of her feelings for T. Sending a letter to bare her sould as it were; intended for both myself and T. She first sent it to me and was not sure if she would have to send it to T; this of course releived me... I was terrified what might happen if she rekindled things with T. That I would lose FlameKat as I always have when ever another guy enters the picture. About a week or two later FlameKat told me she needed to send the letter to T. I uneasily understood. He responded with another somewhat empty email and reinforced the need for us not to speak with him.
- I once again was relieved... but then angered because FlameKat did not accept his response and insisted he was not telling us his true feelings. I said that he has the right not to and how many times do you or I need to come crawling before we can both accept what he is saying. FlameKat stated something that shook me again; that she didn’t know if she could ever let go of this. I asked if she knew the effect it would have on our life if she was always looking back on the horizon for T to come back… it would make me feel that our life wasn’t good enough.
-FlameKat returned home and when she returned to told me that T had sent her an email; wishing a Merry Christmas and safe trip. She replied simply thanking him and returning the Christmas wishes. I was not bothered that FlameKat responded; but I was saddened again that T had only bothered to send thought to FlameKat and once again none to myself. I felt what was left of our friendship slipping deeper and deeper away into the depths. If felt as though T had already decided in himself what he had done was unforgivable and that despite how long we had known each other, he could not speak to me. I found myself asking why then did he go against what he decided and contact FlameKat; did he not realize how much pain and confusion that would cause? I do acknowledge the pain he is going through; my anger makes it difficult to consider it in my reasoning…. And I do know that in large part the reason he reached out again to FlameKat; was that he did not say goodbye to her.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:40 PM
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Default Staring into the Fallacy of the Reflection I Believed was Me... Part 3 of 5

-My anger was beginning to swell; and I was making myself believe the source of it was T’s betrayal… I know in myself now that isn’t true. I think the roots of my anger grow from the feeling he was able to say goodbye to me; he could not to her…. Equating in my mind that a farewell to me was less painful … and that he was able to hold to that decision and omit me from his life while still grasping at the threads of his relationship with FlameKat. I think that T believes the same thing I do; that attempting to make this work between the three of us would fail; leaving all of us scattered or all of us permanently scarred deeper than we already are and one left on their own.
-To continue… the ups and downs continued between myself and FlameKat. We kept talking and working through things together ….Gods I love her so. That is something that has always been so amazing about what we have …. We can talk about anything… some things may be extremely painful like this… but there is an openness I have never felt with anyone in my life until her.
-As most I’m sure; I tend to be physically affected when I am emotionally upset … can’t eat, can’t sleep right, work suffers and going out to socialize becomes a virtual impossibility. New Years morning FlameKat and I started a deep discussion that we did not get to finish before I had to leave for work. I was supposed to get together with my old friends; friends I had not seen in years. Because I could focus on nothing else; I chose to ditch out and come home New Years eve so FlameKat and I could continue to talk. I would catch up with my friends another time I thought. FlameKat and I made more progress in working through things.
-A few days later I receive a call from one of the friends from the party I was supposed to go to on New Years. He was calling to tell me that another friend from that same party had just passed away in his sleep. I cracked; breaking down into tears …. I had not cried this hard in years . The friend that had passed was a very dear one that I had decided in myself, that I would reconnect with. The last time I had seen him was 2 years prior; the night before I tried taking my own life. FlameKat was once again the amazing woman I love so much… she helped me deal with the pain. I was given the honor of reading one of the eulogies at the service… this gave me some measure of closure in the loss.
-In the days leading up to the funeral… T contacted FlameKat again. This time on MSN not email. FlameKat did not see the message until he was signed off … so did not have the chance to reply. Another day or so T emailed her; apologizing that him contacting was just causing hurt for all of us and that he found himself thinking of excuses to reach out to her. I became furious … I believe at one point I exclaimed that I just wanted T to F**k off. FlameKat composed a response and let me read it. It was a response that again was understanding toward T’s feelings; attempting to encourage him to talk and that he could contact FlameKat whenever he liked and of course that she missed him. I asked that she not send until I had the chance to write to him first; I wanted to be blunt and get the feelings I had off my chest. FlameKat understood and saved her email. I also asked that we wait a day or two to see if he would respond to me before she sent hers.
Here is a copy of the message I sent him: (edited to remove names and swears)
These past few months have been difficult for FlameKat AND me; for several reasons. Having time together but then having to say goodbye again; knowing it will be sometime before we see each other again. The hoping but still not knowing the outcome of our court battle of course … but I’ll be honest the most stress has come from the way YOU cut us both off in October and what actions followed. Before I go on … I’ll warn you that this letter will be filled with a significant measure of anger and I am finally going to cut to the chase with you.
That last night you called me; you started the conversation with ‘Waterwolf, tell me what you want to happen … what will make things right … because they aren’t cool right now.’ I have thought back on the conversation many times; to best of my recollection and discussed it at length with FlameKat. One of the things that stood out was why you bothered asking me that when it seemed before the end of the call you had already decided what needed to happen. I also clearly remember your words cutting … when you said … ‘at the end of the day Waterwolf, I don’t care if you are ok with this; or if FlameKat is ok with this … I have to do what I feel is right and ... ‘, well you know the rest. I know you have always held your cards close to your chest in regards to your deep personal thoughts; using vague examples and scenarios in order to avoid actually revealing what it is on your mind. I also acknowledge that over the last few years I likely have lost your trust in talking about these things; because I am probably a cause of some of them. It must be nice to play it safe like that while everyone around you spills their guts; sharing their deepest thoughts and feelings without exposing yourself and objectively sit back to give advice. Don’t misunderstand I know for a fact you go through immense internal anguish; trying to sort things out on your own; and I do that myself … except the difference is I eventually reach a point of talking … because I WANT to. I have always been willing to share my deepest fears, desires and hopes with you and never questioned how one sided our sharing was through the years; and even allowed myself to feel guilty many times for burdening you with them and not being allowed to return the favor. There have been so many times in our friendship you have made me feel guilty for small and bigger things; and when you made this decision in the vague way you left it … FlameKat and I could only speculate the reasons ... here is a sampling of the chaos you left us reeling in…

• Was FlameKat getting to close to you despite your requests to place boundaries?
• Have your feelings grown past a point that you want more from your relationship with FlameKat and were fearful you would cross the line, betraying my trust?
• Were you offended when you heard that I was getting uncomfortable about the frequency of and depth of your conversations with FlameKat?

Other things you said in that conversation, like when I said ‘If it was any other guy talking this much to FlameKat I would be concerned; but because it’s you … it’s ok … I trust you and I trust her’ … you responded with ‘I wouldn’t Waterwolf’ and ‘I haven’t been a good friend to you’ … Those words left me feeling that it was the second point mentioned above. But when you said ‘this isn’t cool’ … that left me battling with the ideas that it ‘wasn’t cool’ because you fell in love with FlameKat and were getting too close, OR that it ‘wasn’t cool’ because I couldn’t handle your friendship with her and it was causing stress between me and her. Therein lies the guilt you left me with again; feeling the possibility that my insecurities; forced you to make this choice. Another phrase that sticks in my mind is, ‘Waterwolf, have you ever known me to make rash decisions?’ … and I answered ‘No’ … and that may be true … but there is a first time for everything.
FlameKat and I have spent so many days and nights talking and crying together and I know you have had to deal with your own measure of pain and tears in all this. But honestly I have not found it in me to feel sympathy for you T; this was not your choice to make alone … but yet you made it anyway … governed by fear wrapped in some grand gesture of nobility … ‘I honestly wish you both the best Waterwolf’ … you didn’t just cut yourself off from me and FlameKat … which is the only part you really considered … I don’t think I need to make a list … you know how important you are to my brother and that your family has always been my second home. At first I wanted to honestly believe this had been an honorable choice … you cared that much for FlameKat and me … but your actions to follow painted a very different picture and that is when my anger began to grow.
So I put this question to you now man … ‘What the hell do you want? What will make things right?’
• You call me; to tell me that you can’t talk to FlameKat or me anymore. When I was already feeling that our friendship had so little value anymore to you… because you could put so much effort into talking to my girlfriend and there were times I would have to leave three messages to get a call back ….well, when you said that … you threw what was left right out the window.
• You don’t pay FlameKat the same courtesy call… leaving her to try and shrug it off and comfort me. The first thing she said after that call when I asked her if she was ok was ‘I only care if we are alright honey’. But then the next day she was so conflicted with sadness and anger at herself for missing you so much and not knowing why; and fearing that her heart was betraying what we have. She nearly gets in a car accident … makes it home … and comes online to me in tears. When I found out what happened; my heart was ripped out … seeing just how deeply she felt about you; while all I could do was be comforting and hold back the loss I felt in that moment.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:41 PM
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Default Staring into the Fallacy of the Reflection I Believed was Me... Part 4 of 5

• So time passes … talking… working through thoughts and feelings … I get to Australia and FlameKat tells me she has been watching your MSN picture (Which she showed me) and Facebook profile photos change. Ok I’m confused man … You say that you can’t talk to us anymore … so instead you play mind games … knowing that because we have no real answers to why you left … she will be checking your profiles for any clues to how you are doing. So did you think that the Eye with the Tear drop and Heart shaped pupil was going to have a positive effect on us? … WTF? … Obviously you have been checking FlameKat’s profile too in order to reach out in some way to her still.
• When FlameKat was in Canada; we worked through a lot … and we had to talk a great deal more after she wrote the letter that she eventually sent to you. Which I was honestly surprised you cc’d me on your response to. Despite all your cryptic picture messages prior to this; you still restated that there could be no relationship between you and FlameKat.
• So to further your strict no contact decision; you send her a Merry Xmas email … and once again I warranted nothing … The picture you started painting; or rather were forcing me to paint myself; because I wasn’t told anything … was that you miss FlameKat greatly but well I guess 20+ years doesn’t mean much with me.
• By the New Year FlameKat and I had started getting back into a more settled state and understanding how to work through the things that had happened … by talking of course. … then … low and behold … you pop onto MSN to talk to her; in a no contact sort of way mind you … reopening our wound AGAIN! Also this couldn’t have happened at a better time when I just found out the day before that a close friend had died in his sleep.

FlameKat has written a response to your most recent email … but I asked that she wait to send it and allow me to email you first.
So it didn’t occur to you that you hurt her until she put it in writing? Also it feels wonderful knowing that she is missed deeply … just for the record … you fucking hurt me deeply man … I can’t help but wish there were times you almost called me … but I find it harder to believe as time goes on. I don’t know if you feel how you handled things was wrong … but if you haven’t realized what you are doing now … it is just as wrong if not worse. First you say goodbye to me with no words to her … now you are trying to say hello to her with no words to me … Jesus Christ!
Ok, I think I’m done ranting …. I hated talking to you this way man; but I couldn’t let this sit anymore … I don’t know if I’ve ever been this angry and I never thought I would be directing it at you. You can’t keep straddling the fence like this … you made a choice that quite frankly sucked … we are all hurting for it … if you feel you can’t talk to BOTH of us … then to put it bluntly … stop this fucking around and give us the space we need … to be clear I am not giving you an out … we BOTH miss you a lot regardless of how pissed off I am … FlameKat also has anger of her own. On the other hand if you want to repair your friendship with FlameKat … the only way I will be able to accept that is if you put an equal effort into working things out with me. If the three of us can’t talk things out together this will never be sorted out properly. I have also considered the possibility that in YOUR point of view … too much damage has happened between you and I and you are no longer interested in having a friendship with me and only with FlameKat … that would hurt immensely … but if it is the truth I want to hear it.
Bottom Line … I ask again … ‘What do You Want?’
And
Tell me why you felt you had to leave … I really want to know what the reasons were and how you came to the decision you did … because from the way you’ve been acting the past few months … I don’t think you agreed with that choice from day one.
Your Friend
Waterwolf
-I’m not sure if FlameKat has included T’s response to this email; so I will append it here:
I appricate your honest as I always have Waterwolf, your words are strong as is your heart. I have caused you much pain and anger and there is no answers I can give you that will change that. You are certainly missed and I deeply regret that I have caused a continuation of the hurt you are feeling. I've made some big missteps in not letting go and this 'stradlding the fence' has caused even more anger and resentment. Rightly so and shame on me as its very hurtful to you both.

It took all I had to say goodbye to one friend and I could not find a way to say goodbye to the other. I lost that chance and have done more harm since in trying to express that regret.

Your words paint a clear picture of your thoughts, very powerful, that has always been your gift. Go in peace my friend, I will cause you and yours no further hurt.

T
-Flamekat then sent her response which I know is posted on one of her threads. She and I continued to talk through things. T responded, agreeing to chat on MSN with FlameKat if I was ok with it. I said I was with a few conditions that I believe FlameKat has mentioned; but for sake of ease I’ll include my response here: (edited again to exclude names)
Yes, I'm ok with that.
I think in order for any of us to reach some form of closure; this needs to happen.
And if there is any possibility of a fresh start; whatever that may be; this needs to happen.
I would just make two requests.

1.) That this doesnt happen until after FlameKat gets back from her work trip next week.
2.) That if the two of you come to some decision for all of us to try and repair things; that at least the first conversation toward that goal be a conversation that includes all three of us.
Waterwolf
-FlameKat and T had the conversation. I asked if I could see the conversation. She was very reluctant as she did not want me to see things that would likely hurt me deeply. We discussed for a while and I was not going to insist she show me; and would respect her choice not to. But as we debated I did my best to convey the importance of being able to share it. Eventually FlameKat sent me a copy of the conversation and I admit reading it hurt; but I think it was a necessary hurt to assist me in understanding more about the pain FlameKat was struggling with.
-We talked more afterward and I expressed that I was concerned how the conversation ended; that they didn’t really say goodbye. Which triggered me again; feeling that it was an easier task to do so with me. Also the end of the conversation meandered into what I would expect to be the way they used to chat; more flirty with very direct innuendo toward them meeting. I was angered again by how he contradicted himself again and again… saying he could not be in our lives but then stating FlameKat could not send the ring she got for him in the mail; it would have to be given in person. The conversation then went to FlameKat saying the next time she was in Canada she would be at his door to do so; and he added that maybe he would make a trip overseas for a vacation.
-Venting moment …. AM I A FIGGIN JEALOUS INCONSIDERATE A**HOLE? Please someone tell me now… am I wrong for getting f**king p**sed off about what T is doing? And I know someone will say why am I only mad at T … but I’m not … I have told FlameKat how mad I am at her too … but she isn’t playing games in order to protect herself … she is putting herself out there regardless how difficult it is … AND HE ISN’T!!!! For all the years I have known T he never states something he won’t commit to. These past months have been the exception… ‘The power of Love, eh?’ … so him talking about a trip shouldn’t bother me; but all the past history of who he is brings me to being scared again … ‘What if he were to show up at FlameKat’s door?’ I would lose it… I would have no idea how to cope and I know it would be just as tough for her. Not wanting to turn him away; but knowing if she didn’t it would tear me apart. So Im left with the doubt of not knowing the outcome … but as FlameKat keeps gently reminding me … I have to stop hanging onto the What If’s and just trust in our Love. As much I I struggle with things …. I do trust our Love and her and us … we always come back to center.
So all that said…. I apologize again for the length; but in my defense I hope to be a writer someday. Lol
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:42 PM
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Default Staring into the Fallacy of the Reflection I Believed was Me... Part 5 of 5

My basic thoughts in the now…
• I still struggle off and on to explain why FlameKat and T fell in Love; in some strange attempt to give it a value that does not amount to how much FlameKat and I love one another.
• I still struggle with understanding why I wasn’t enough for her anymore; that she needed to confide in someone else; when she had been able to share everything with me before … or my perception of everything I guess. I do understand that we all have things that are harder to share with anyone and sometimes those things aren’t even shared with ourselves subconsciously.
• I still struggle with my rigid concept of love … my mind and heart are born from the traditional love story … Two people that would do anything to be together and for each other. That how I view the essence of love in people … we are born with a ‘token’ as it were. This token is what someone gives another they fall in love with. They only have one… it cannot be copied… it cannot be split without losing a part of the gift it represents. When someone falls in love with another and that person becomes the guardian of another’s ‘token’; it is changed, becoming more complex … changes perhaps appearing in the form of scratches or jewels depending on the experience. When love fails the ‘token’ is returned to its owner; sometimes in a very damaging way … so much so that we must take time to repair it before trusting another with its care. When FlameKat and I met … we both had this similar perspective of entrusting something so unique of ourselves with each other. I would describe how I felt when she was spending more time with T and our time was less rich … to metaphorically describe. She and I believe that my token was with her and hers with me … but there was moments I could not find hers and was only looking in myself and her to locate it; but eventually it would turn up. FlameKat I believe did not realize she was passing her token periodically to T as it was wrapped in such a way that she did not see it as her token but more of a reflection of it. When we realized what had developed; I could see things about FlameKat’s token that I had no recollection of adding. From my perception … in wanting T in our lives and her loving him as much as she does me … a couple of my perceptions were that she is still the holder of my token but periodically asking me for hers back; then asking me to hold mine for a moment while watching her walk over to T and exchange with him. Going back and forth over time… OR … she is holding both mine and T’s tokens while splitting hers in two; leaving me with less of what she had gifted me when we first fell in love; while she holds all of what I have to give. I know this is a rigid concept and Im not saying its right … but it is how I see things at the moment.
• I know how much FlameKat loves me. It is the first time I can say someone has reciprocated the amount of love that I can give. But I hold to this argument… that she, T and I are passed the point of having a healthy relationship together. Because of his inability to be open; his presence would leave FlameKat struggling between us and me doubting even the smallest of things. I also say from past history; FlameKat proved that she could not love him with out taking away from the quality of our time shared. T has spent so many years in misery that he demands someone meet him in the shadows to convince him to step forward; not compromising for the needs of anyone else… he has been hurt too deeply in the past …. That said FlameKat would have to depart often from me emotionally in order to guide him to our common ground. Which I think was proven with how things went before we knew what was happening. Also I am too willing to go along as I did in the past; accepting what others want despite the pain I hold inside. This is not a good mix… FlameKat would be burning her candle as it were at both ends to love us both … T and I are very demanding in similar ways when it comes to love; desiring equal effort put into loving us that we offer those we love. Because of that ‘flaw’ and I admit in some ways it is … he or I would always be feeling she is not loving us enough whenever she had to focus on the other for time … this in my mind is a recipe for endless pain and struggle. If this wasn’t the case I think the next most likely would be me accepting FlameKat’s love for T; allowing it grow while letting the feeling inside myself grow that she was drifting away … and eventually having the perception that I was in the way of their love.
• I’m not saying what I think makes sense; but the passion and loss that FlameKat has displayed for T …. And the fact it has not lessened in the nearly 6 months time … scares me. It scares me that nothing we have done together since then; shared since then has eased the loss of his presence. If he never comes back; will FlameKat always be waiting for him to knock on our door? Will the dreams we created together for our family ever be good enough? Will she ever be completely Happy? Am I holding her back from true Happiness?

I think I have to stop writing now. My head is pounding badly.
I hope this helps baby. I’m trying so hard.
I love you so much FlameKat; I will always be yours.
I am a better man for knowing you and my dreams become reality for loving you.
WaterWolf
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:47 PM
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It does help baby.

and just as your last post triggered a sense of unease - so too has this one. I will contemplate and find what is bothering me about this and discuss it both with you and on this thread.

I think for now, a large of degree of what is leaving me uneasy is the sense of dependency I feel. Um.. how to explain...

Quote:
I also say from past history; FlameKat proved that she could not love him with out taking away from the quality of our time shared. T has spent so many years in misery that he demands someone meet him in the shadows to convince him to step forward; not compromising for the needs of anyone else… he has been hurt too deeply in the past …. That said FlameKat would have to depart often from me emotionally in order to guide him to our common ground. Which I think was proven with how things went before we knew what was happening. Also I am too willing to go along as I did in the past; accepting what others want despite the pain I hold inside. This is not a good mix… FlameKat would be burning her candle as it were at both ends to love us both … T and I are very demanding in similar ways when it comes to love; desiring equal effort put into loving us that we offer those we love. Because of that ‘flaw’ and I admit in some ways it is … he or I would always be feeling she is not loving us enough whenever she had to focus on the other for time … this in my mind is a recipe for endless pain and struggle.
That quote above is something we have gone over many times, and I still say it is an unfair assumption to make. That because of my behaviour during a period that was absolutely awful in terms of stress, along with not realising fully how I was starting to fall in love, and also not realising how deeply my behaviour was affecting you - because you weren't being as upfront as you could about your feelings... we would be unable to make this work. I think that with open eyes, minds, and hearts we could as long as we all communicated. Neither of you are the type of people who would demand of me if I was unable to give.

The picture in my mind I get from your quote is of me in a 50's style outfit, running back and forth between different rooms in a house, hair all frazzled, desperately tired, with speech bubbles from each room yelling out "you're not loving me enough, he better not be getting more"

Neither of you are that childish. And if either of you thought I was tired you would be doing what you could to give me what I need, be that space, time or a backrub.

The comment about T and shadows - I will leave alone for now, we have our differing opinions on that and we are most likely both right (you because you know him so well for so long and know his deeper character, and me because I know how he was thinking just before he cut us off and know what/how he wants to be (at least what he was telling me anyway)). I also don't want to get bogged down in a discussion about T himself, it is a moot point, as he is unlikely to come back and I am working on letting him go.

Although I do want to add, that it strikes me as somehow unfair? (not the right word - but the only one coming to mind right now) that you expect T to reach out to you, when just as you are upset with him for not talking to you about this whole mess - you haven't talked to him about the mess either. And I know that there is a whole history there that I don't understand/appreciate but I find it frustrating. And to make it clear - no I don't expect you to call him or him to call you... I just find it bloody frustrating.

Anyway, moving on...

the token exchange you use for your example... we have already discussed the concept that for the purpose of your analogy I was born with duplicate tokens and only discovered that fact due to this mess. I think it's worth trying to assimilate that notion.

Quote:
It scares me that nothing we have done together since then; shared since then has eased the loss of his presence. If he never comes back; will FlameKat always be waiting for him to knock on our door? Will the dreams we created together for our family ever be good enough? Will she ever be completely Happy? Am I holding her back from true Happiness?
I really hope I am not making you feel that our dreams are not good enough baby... Our dreams and plans are what is holding me up... the life we plan together, the love we share, the depths of love we are reaching together...

The journey with you is where I want to be, if at some point we are joined on that path then... great, if not, then at your side is where I want to be.

I don't how else to reassure you right now, I love you so.

I have more to say but will leave it for now, as I want to get back to you in person on Skype damn this speech thingy...
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:02 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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I want to congratulate you on doing a good job laying out your thoughts and emotions with so much detail and explanation. That can be quite a daunting and sometimes frightening task!
I'm a regular poster around her, feel free to ask me anything. I'm going to just respond with my initial impressions from your last post. But-if anything I say gives you question, please feel free to ask! God knows I don't always make sense!

Quote:
My basic thoughts in the now…
• I still struggle off and on to explain why FlameKat and T fell in Love; in some strange attempt to give it a value that does not amount to how much FlameKat and I love one another.
That seems to be a struggle for many a mono-minded person! I think it's easy to slip into that struggle even as a poly-minded person! It's hard to remind ourselves in a way that our own minds (much less anyone else's) will accept that one doesn't have to be "missing" something in order to enjoy having something more.
It's a little like money. If someone offered to increase your wages-would you automatically say no? It's possible that you could love your job (and be content with your pay) and still think that the offer of a wage increase would be awesome.
OR
What if you love your job, love the location; and you get offered the chance to get a pay raise if one week of the month you traveled to exotic and exciting locations to do the same work?
If you take the offer, does that mean you weren't satisfied with the job before?
I can be madly in love with someone and happy with them. But then I meet someone else and I fall in love with them ALSO. It's not that person #1 wasn't "good enough", it's that person #2 was "also good".
Easier to discuss in theory then it is to really internalize.

Quote:
• I still struggle with understanding why I wasn’t enough for her anymore; that she needed to confide in someone else; when she had been able to share everything with me before … or my perception of everything I guess. I do understand that we all have things that are harder to share with anyone and sometimes those things aren’t even shared with ourselves subconsciously.
Painful thought. Difficult to get around. I think that we were created to continuously grow and "improve" upon ourselves, always changing (by default) as we grow... In doing so we encounter new parts of ourselves and sometimes those new parts are "availabilities" inside our hearts or minds. I find that GG has filled a need in a part of me that I didn't previously know what there. BUT-that doesn't change the reality that Maca fills the parts he always did...

Quote:
• I still struggle with my rigid concept of love … They only have one… it cannot be copied… it cannot be split without losing a part of the gift it represents.
I wonder if maybe my thoughts above couldn't be expanded upon to take in this concept. I don't think your concept is fully wrong, maybe...just... somewhat unfinished, unrefined...
A tree starts as a seed. Ends up an Oak. What a seed can give/share with the person who tends it, is very minimal. But, an Oak can share with not only the person who loves and tends it; but with MANY people....
We're a lot like that too. We have the ability as we learn more about ourselves to "branch out". (not saying everyone "becomes poly", just saying we expand internally).
For some people as they grow, they find that there is so much of themselves to give that they long to share it with more than one other person. I.E. they find that they have found the "secret" to copying their token....


Quote:
I know how much FlameKat loves me.
EXCELLENT! That's a wonderful thing to have confidence in! It's like saying "I know that there is a good foundation under us"! You may be nervous about building the house and how it's going to come together, but you can work through those details as you move along.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
his inability to be open
Redflag. If he can't address this within himself-no healthy relationship of any type is really possible.

Quote:
me doubting even the smallest of things
To a large degree any type of relationship requires a "leap of faith". It seems to help a lot of people to consider INTENTION. Not "did they hurt me" but "did they INTEND to hurt me". If they didn't INTEND it-then I don't have to start doubting them, because I know that they were doing their best.
If you believe that she's doing her best, there's nothing to doubt. That's all she can possibly be expected to do, even if it's not good enough. (same for self fyi)

Quote:
FlameKat proved that she could not love him with out taking away from the quality of our time shared.
That needs to be addressed, with specific details of how to avoid that in the future. We all stumble, that's to be expected. It starts when we are babies, and every step of our lives thereafter, when we traverse new ground there are times we fall and have to pull ourselves back up. So, now that you've identified the stumbling block, it's time to address how to avoid it in the future.

Quote:
he demands someone meet him in the shadows to convince him to step forward
... does he demand or does he just keep his head in the sand? Either way, he will have to choose to take the proffered "map to common ground", to stay where he is in the dark or to go another way all together. Only he can make that choice. But, no one should be "dragging him along kicking and screaming" from his self-created "safe place"-it will impede his own growth. He has to choose to exit of his own free will.

Quote:
not compromising for the needs of anyone else…
Not healthy. Not healthy for anyone, in any dynamic. Monogamous, poly or even single. Just not healthy. This needs to be addressed so that he can become the best version of himself possible, and able to participate in relationships, ANY relationship. Becuase ALL relationships (even boss to employee) require some compromise.

Quote:
would have to depart often from me emotionally
Why?

Quote:
guide him to our common ground
This is a job the two of you need to do together. First identify what IS the common ground. Then identify what the steps are for getting to it. Then give him the "map". At that point-it's up to him to decide if he's going to travel the road or not.

Quote:
I am too willing to go along as I did in the past; accepting what others want despite the pain I hold inside.
This is a redflag. Obviously, you need to work on this. It's a direct contradiction to being able to uphold your next quoted statement. If you demand that your beloved put equal loving into you as you do into them; you can't also accept them not doing so....
It's important to really identify what parts of yourself are promoting YOU becoming the best version of yourself possible and which are holding you back. There comes a time when we have to let go of old paradigms that hold us back from our own growth. Often the time becomes visible when someone in our life triggers a painful reaction from us, but regardless of what brings to light that our beliefs, traditions, emotions, fears, habits are holding us back; when we see that we are being held back from being our best self-it's time to change those beliefs, traditions, emotions habits, and tackle those fears.

Quote:
T and I are very demanding in similar ways when it comes to love; desiring equal effort put into loving us that we offer those we love.
That's wonderful! That means that you both expect that your lovers will treat you right and not use you! That's important for everyone! This doesn't have to create a problem, it can in fact be used side by side with creative adaptation to build a sustainable relationship.

Quote:
he or I would always be feeling she is not loving us enough whenever she had to focus on the other for time …
Why? Why could you not be loving your life and focusing that time on doing something important to you as well? Sometimes we have to CHOOSE to change our "default" emotion. When I am at a great height, I default to a "fear" feeling. But, when I've wanted to go somewhere that was at a great height-I've chosen to focus on the goal-and the emotion has lessened and even disappeared!

Quote:
the passion and loss that FlameKat has displayed for T …. And the fact it has not lessened in the nearly 6 months time … scares me.
Fear is something to look deeper into. In some ways it seems that it might be worth considering that you COULD feel more secure due to those things. BECAUSE it means that absence doesn't create in FlameKat a "forget" tirgger... Just because someone is gone, doesn't make her love diminish or decrease. Looked at from that point of view-in light of your knowledge of her love for you... then it could be reassuring to know that even when you are absent from her, she'll be loving you and missing you....

Quote:
It scares me that nothing we have done together since then; shared since then has eased the loss of his presence.
I can understand feeling fear. What are you afraid of precisely? (I ask only becuase it's good to know precisely what you fear, not just what circumstances trigger fear).
I imagine it's similar for a child whose sibling dies. The family can enjoy their time together, but nothing will EVER take away the conscious awareness that someone who was deeply loved, deeply integral is missing. Sometimes the siblings will feel "cheated" because their parents (and themselves and other siblings) lost that sense of joy and free happiness when the other child died.

Quote:
If he never comes back; will FlameKat always be waiting for him to knock on our door?
Possibly. I know with my ex, who left before I ever married, I can't help but miss her and always wonder if there will ever be a day she'll return to my life. It's not that I don't adore my husband, it's that he can't replace her. The other side of that coin is, she can never replace him either! Neither one or the other can fill the "gap" in my heart that is the "place" the other calls "home" in my heart.
Likewise, GG can't replace Maca, Maca can't replace GG. If either were to die tomorrow, the loss would be heartrending and permanent. I would appreciate the love and loving from the one who was still here and it would be a comfort to have that, but it would not ease or end my suffering for the loss of the person who was gone.

Quote:
Will the dreams we created together for our family ever be good enough?
Good enough for what? Good enough for who? Good enough to accomplish what?

Quote:
Will she ever be completely Happy?
Only she can choose that. It's not something that you have any control of. She may choose to find complete happiness in her life, she might not. In fact, that could change at any time and repeatedly

Quote:
Am I holding her back from true Happiness?
Only she can REALLY identify this. For many years I thought I was holding GG back, becuase he was in love with me and I saw myself as "unavailable". The truth is that what he wanted/needed wasn't what I would want/need and he was getting what he wanted/needed. It was me putting my personal perceptions onto him that created the concern in me.
ONLY she can identify and be held accountable for making sure that she does what she needs to do in order to find true happiness. You, T, any of us; can only guess and by it's nature, a guess has a higher risk of being incorrect.

This is a PERFECT concern to relate to:
"God (or universe or whatever) Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change....."
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