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  #51  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:16 AM
preciselove preciselove is offline
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Originally Posted by RobFire View Post
If you break it down, making a new, close friend has few real differences to making a new, close lover:
  • Both can take time away from your primary lover
  • Both can have activities that include your primary lover
  • Both can involve complex emotional issues
Agree with these.

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Originally Posted by RobFire View Post
The hang-up here is sex. And yes, sexual diversity can be VERY rewarding. I do not think you'll find many people on here to argue against that.
Sexual activities need to reoccur to be rewarding. Generally speaking. You may have some good memories, but they pale in comparison to the act of having sex with NRE. As such the sex is the driver for a lot of people, yet they usually say otherwise, because then it's not "love" or "poly" it's just typical sex like most people have.

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Originally Posted by RobFire View Post
It's also not everything. Nor is it something that *needs* justification. Nor does its presence *need* to be separated from relationships or love.
It does need justification in my mind, because if the main reason you're doing something is the sex but you're saying otherwise then you should be able to defend your position so it's clearly "not mostly about the sex".

If you think most people are honest, even with themselves, when it comes to such things you probably need to learn a bit more about human behaviour. It of course doesn't apply to everyone, and some people are honest about it. I have no qualms with people that know what they want and are honest about it.

However when I see the love is infinite people and then ask some questions about their long term partners there are usually some 'issues' lurking there. I also do not think many people fully analyze a situation and work out what motivates them to do something. They may latch onto an idea that sounds nice in their head, but it's just that, a nice sounding thing that they feel good about. They'll even defend it like it's really "them" due to this nice feeling they get.
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  #52  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:47 AM
RobFire RobFire is offline
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Default Justificinationess...

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Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
Sexual activities need to reoccur to be rewarding.
In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. Depends on what the person seeking sex defines as "rewarding".

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Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
Generally speaking. You may have some good memories, but they pale in comparison to the act of having sex with NRE.
NRE+sex is one flavor, Long Term Love+sex is another. Both have different rewards, and neither is necessarily a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
As such the sex is the driver for a lot of people, yet they usually say otherwise, because then it's not "love" or "poly" it's just typical sex like most people have.
Gross generalization. Those types of people do exist, but so do the types of people who call themselves poly and also maintain legitimate long term relationships with their partners.

One could reverse that and show that many people calling themselves mono often have nefarious intentions as well.

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Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
It does need justification in my mind, because if the main reason you're doing something is the sex but you're saying otherwise then you should be able to defend your position so it's clearly "not mostly about the sex".
This is like saying a smoker who keeps trying to quit, but keeps failing, needs to justify why they'd still want to keep trying to quit. Their track record may be poor, but it does not invalidate their stated desire to quit.

Their chances of success may be perceived as low, but I'd still encourage them to keep trying.

It's another issue if you don't *trust* the person's motives. But that's something that can only be applied to people on an individual basis, not generalized towards a whole group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
If you think most people are honest, even with themselves, when it comes to such things you probably need to learn a bit more about human behaviour. It of course doesn't apply to everyone, and some people are honest about it. I have no qualms with people that know what they want and are honest about it.
Do I believe all people are honest about their intentions? No.

However, if I start from the *assumption* that they are not, I close myself to the rewards that can be gained from those that are.

If I start by giving them the benefit of doubt, I may get hurt. May get burned. But I may also hit the relationship jackpot that I seek.

No pain, no gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
However when I see the love is infinite people and then ask some questions about their long term partners there are usually some 'issues' lurking there. I also do not think many people fully analyze a situation and work out what motivates them to do something. They may latch onto an idea that sounds nice in their head, but it's just that, a nice sounding thing that they feel good about. They'll even defend it like it's really "them" due to this nice feeling they get.
Issues lurk in both mono and poly relationships. Mono relationships don't have that great a statistical success rate, even in institutionalized marriage.

Poly relationships are more challenging to manage than mono due to the additional partners in play.

Though rare, super-duper high-quality mono and poly relationships exist. Both , IMHO, have rewards worth pursuing.
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  #53  
Old 03-24-2011, 03:13 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by preciselove View Post
I feel they aren't really being honest with themselves or their partners when they just throw everything under the "love" cloud - "oh yeah that boner in my pants I just got for that girl is love baby, and remember polyamory is about sharing the love" .
The irony here is my observation comes from the other direction. I find to many people throw friendship under the "love" cloud (speaking about romantic love). I am beginning to realize this is where I seem to differ greatly from people in poly.

In my head I can easily break out friendship and romantic love. I can then split it into crush, lust, puppy love and real long term love. Can I define it for others (as GS keeps asking ) no, I can't. I can't define it for anyone, just like no one is going to tell me friendship and a new lover fall equally in line with each other.

Quote:
  1. Both can take time away from your primary lover
  2. Both can have activities that include your primary lover
  3. Both can involve complex emotional issues
I can understand where this can overlap. But it so doesn't work in the same way. Yes friendship can take away some of those times (or be included), but the emotional connection or removal isn't there. The time itself is very different, and even if there are complex emotions... it just doesn't compare to a love. On the surface you are right but you are missing the deeper emotional side of those periods of time.

That is really my only point. To the misc conversation that is starting about poly and sex vs the intentions of the person. I think you will find it pretty diverse. Some people are poly because they enjoy sex and love, and some people are poly because they just want the love, the sex doesn't need to be there. That POV is up to you guys, arguing it isn't going to get you very far. As someone who needs that sexual connection with romantic love... I stand clearly on one side of the fence, but I can understand the other side just fine.

For the record I do see a lot of poly people that claim to only want love and not be concerned for the sex... maybe its my cynical side, but I just can't believe them. Maybe if they were more honest about their needs they might find their preferred gender more approachable. I wonder how many of those guys having problems picking up poly women are having that problem because they aren't being honest about a portion of their intentions (with themselves or others).
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  #54  
Old 03-24-2011, 03:42 PM
RobFire RobFire is offline
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
For the record I do see a lot of poly people that claim to only want love and not be concerned for the sex... maybe its my cynical side, but I just can't believe them. Maybe if they were more honest about their needs they might find their preferred gender more approachable. I wonder how many of those guys having problems picking up poly women are having that problem because they aren't being honest about a portion of their intentions (with themselves or others).
Absolutely! Of course false claims of intention are not a poly issue, they're a relationship issue in general.

Of course in poly, there's a chance that if you get burnt you'll have your other lover(s) to go to for support and love.
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  #55  
Old 03-24-2011, 06:00 PM
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RitaFire RitaFire is offline
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
In my head I can easily break out friendship and romantic love. I can then split it into crush, lust, puppy love and real long term love.
I can...but...sometimes the lines can get a little fuzzy for me when it comes to men. I am straight, but also feel we are attracted to who we are attracted to, and I have not met a woman that I have had a crush on or felt lust for like I have with men. I am not saying it would be impossible for me to be attracted that way to a woman, it just hasn't happened for me. With women I feel a different sort of love, a strong friendship and admiration and respect, and protective. As far as the men I have been attracted to, I think crush and lust go hand in hand for me. Lust being a strong desire to act upon an emotion or crush. It may start out as a crush, then go into a friendship if the crush does not go into lust, but I like the person. No chemistry I guess you could say. Or I may start as friendship, develop a crush then feel lust. I may start out as crush, move into lust, then friendship, or friends with benefits. I see the sequence of events can be different depending on the person.

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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
I can understand where this can overlap. But it so doesn't work in the same way. Yes friendship can take away some of those times (or be included), but the emotional connection or removal isn't there. The time itself is very different, and even if there are complex emotions... it just doesn't compare to a love. On the surface you are right but you are missing the deeper emotional side of those periods of time.
I am of this belief as well, for me at least.
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  #56  
Old 03-24-2011, 06:48 PM
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RitaFire RitaFire is offline
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I want to add something regarding love and sex.

I watched the movie Black Snake Moan yesterday. It was fabulous! And one thing that struck me was the deep bonding relationship between Lazarus (Samuel L. Jackson) and Rae (Christina Ricci). They never had sex, and their love for each other was so beautiful, rich, deep (well, not at first, lol, but you need to watch the entire movie to get it). I think if they had sex it would have spoiled the movie for me. Their love was deeper than many who have romantic relationships with love and sex. It was just a movie, but I believe this type of love can exist between people.

Would one call themselves poly if they share that type of loving bond with someone without sex? While at the same time also have a sexual romantic loving relationship relationship (marriage or long-term partnership) with someone else? Or do all of the relationships have to include sex if one is to be considered poly? Some of you have touched on this....just throwing my thoughts out there.

Last edited by RitaFire; 03-24-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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  #57  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:35 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RitaFire View Post
Would one call themselves poly if they share that type of loving bond with someone without sex? While at the same time also have a sexual romantic loving relationship relationship (marriage or long-term partnership) with someone else? Or do all of the relationships have to include sex if one is to be considered poly? Some of you have touched on this....just throwing my thoughts out there.
RedPepper has a NSBF (non sexual boyfriend), so maybe she'll chime in here ... I believe she's also tagged things with NSBF.

While it's not something I would find possible, I certainly believe in "emotional" cheating, so I see how this deep love that goes beyond friendship but has not been consumated (whatever the reason) fits into the poly spectrum.
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  #58  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:40 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I believe it depends. A lot of the time, it's about your partner as much as you. That is, if you're a man with a female long-term partner (say, a wife), she might object to your close friendship with another female just as much as she would object to a more traditional romantic relationship that involves sex.

Then, for her, you might be cheating, or emotionally cheating. Either way, you would have passed her boundaries. For her, you wouldn't be mono the way she understands it.

Incidentally, I think it's a shame people in mono relationship don't have as much incentive to communicate. With poly, you're kind of forced to do it at one point or another, but too many mono relationships just assume each on their own, and then get upset when the other party doesn't follow unspoken agreements (that were never there in the first place in their mind).

People seem to have that romantic notion that if you really love each other you'll have the same ideas about everything and therefore don't need to talk about them, especially if it's an "ugly" subject such as money or other partners. But it seems to me real intimacy is when you can discuss these things openly, and deal with the differences of opinion when they come up.
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  #59  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:44 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
People seem to have that romantic notion that if you really love each other you'll have the same ideas about everything and therefore don't need to talk about them, especially if it's an "ugly" subject such as money or other partners. But it seems to me real intimacy is when you can discuss these things openly, and deal with the differences of opinion when they come up.
I certainly find such discussions to be as bonding as a good session in the sack!
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  #60  
Old 03-24-2011, 08:04 PM
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RitaFire RitaFire is offline
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I certainly find such discussions to be as bonding as a good session in the sack!
Haha me too!
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asexual, asexual poly, love, love language, marriage vs. polyamory, non sexual, secondaries, secondary, sex vs love, third partner

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