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  #11  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:47 PM
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Parallel parking and emotional way of being do not relate to me. Spacial capacity and logic don't go together for me... the whole female/male stereotyping doesn't work for me either... maybe its the people I hang out with... I think its kind of a cop out to blame anything on gender... I think for me it's more about training as a child. More about empowering people so they believe they can do anything. It frees them up to so much potential. Blaming gender often keeps me from thinking I am capable, so I don't allow it. I am an awesome parallel parker and can be very logical... I owe this to being empowered to be so... its nothing to do with gender I don't think.

I find on an almost daily basis that people are so quick to judge me on my gender and therefore capability within it. Especially while driving. If I cut someone off in traffic, it is somehow seen as I am a stupid woman, if a man does that to me it is somehow justified because I am just a woman. Not one sorry hand wave or glance with apology, just a blow off. If someone does that when Mono or PN are driving they are all apologetic. If my men cut someone off there is not one peep about it. No head shake, no hand flying up and eye roll... what is that shit?! Ya, driving brings out all those stereotypes it seems! As if everyone doesn't cut people off in traffic sometime or make some driving faux pas. Sorry.... off topic, very passionate about the driving thing

There is a really good video about raising boys that makes me think of emotion and logic ("Tony Porter-a call to men" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80). Raising emotionally strong men is probably the most important thing parents can do. Society trains them to be logic, but not emotional. Opposite for girls; emotional yet not logical.

@ray, I am I-ENFP too. I get where you are coming from, but in my field I have to be able to appreciate logical people as much as emotional. Its important for me to realize that in my personal life I need to find people that feed my soul and be a good host to those that don't. Resentment builds if I am not being fulfilled.
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  #12  
Old 03-15-2011, 04:11 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by ray View Post
Ari, I'm curious to hear how you see the genders as handling logic and emotion. As GS pointed out, the stereotypes do have some truth to them and I do find that my issues with logical folks are mainly men. The women I've known who are more logical were still more empathetic and tended to work cooperatively with me to establish common ground and understanding.
I personally think its just misdirected stereotyping. Women are logical in the things they need to be logical about. With their front end being emotional (sorry I am a software guy so I think of this as front and back end)

Men show the logical side but have deep seated emotions. When push comes to shove... men can be just as emotional if not more. (fights, sports, acting out etc)

Both have logic, both utilize it in their own ways..

People who suck at logic... or any type of intellectual control... suck at it, period. Men or women.

So I still don't see logic as a gendered thing. Its a topical based solution to problems and based on how its shown to the public. Since most stereotypes are judging a book by its cover, then yes, men are more logical. I just happen to dig the book too. As an extremely logical male with a deeply reactionary emotional side... I know I don't fit the stereotype at all.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:13 PM
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@ Preciselove - I would disagree that emotion vs logic is about coddling versus truth. But I do think that sometimes it is necessary to weigh how your words will effect some one. At a summer camp I attended, the director used this three question method to teach the kids how to filter stuff. And it may seem a bit cheesy, but I think it can be useful. She would ask Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary? For instance, if something is true but it's not necessary or kind, then why say it? If it's going to hurt some one and there's no real need to say it, then what's the point? That would be considering their emotions. Sometimes, something is not kind but it's true and necessary. When that happens, you should do your best to relay the information appropriately, still considering their emotions. And I think that the cultural value of logic as superior to emotions is a burdensome construct. Logic is not better. It's like saying that an orange is superior to an apple. They're different. You use them for different things and they can complement each other.

@ GS - I agree that it's not talked about enough. I'm glad it's getting some discussion here. I tend to do something similar where I let myself feel intensely, calm down and then discuss my emotions using a more logical perspective. Kind of like I'm analyzing some one else. I find the approach helps me to make more grounded decisions that can consider the options more fully.

@ RP - That was a great video. TED has such amazing stuff. Men are definitely pushed to stuff down their emotions when learning to integrate them would be so much healthier. I've definitely noticed some resentment cropping up for me in regards to people I'm close to (the 'logical' ones) because ultimately my emotional needs are overlooked. And when I try to communicate what they are and how to help, it's like I'm speaking Turkish. I find I get less passionate about it with acquaintances simply because the ideas being communicated are usually less complex.

@ Ari - I like the front end vs back end idea. Usually I see one or the other sitting in the driver's seat in a person. The other is still there but it's not as prominent per se. My emotions are definitely on the front end but I can still use my logical skills. Sometimes it takes more effort but I like to think those skills are improving.

My big thing right now is why do we see logical is superior. I suppose that it's because we align it with masculinity which is also viewed (talking macro-level, theoretical here) as superior. It is so acceptable for people to down play emotion and dismiss it. I'm tired of being told by society that I'm less than or less intelligent because I am an emotional person. That wanting to care about a cause or people is naive and a waste of time. If the world was all logic, there would be very few humanitarian groups. In the end, much humanitarian work can be "a drop in the ocean" but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter or shouldn't be done. But it takes individuals who care even if it is 'irrational' or 'naive.'
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:26 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by ray View Post
My big thing right now is why do we see logical is superior. I suppose that it's because we align it with masculinity which is also viewed (talking macro-level, theoretical here) as superior. It is so acceptable for people to down play emotion and dismiss it. I'm tired of being told by society that I'm less than or less intelligent because I am an emotional person. That wanting to care about a cause or people is naive and a waste of time. If the world was all logic, there would be very few humanitarian groups. In the end, much humanitarian work can be "a drop in the ocean" but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter or shouldn't be done. But it takes individuals who care even if it is 'irrational' or 'naive.'
Pure emotional response tends to come without thought or processing. It tends to be reactionary only.

It is probably safe to assume you rarely have an unadulterated emotional episode. Just like people who are logical are rarely like spock.

You example of emotional usage, is based on logical creations of groups. If their core is emotional irrationality... they are still doing something about it logical and in an organized manner.

again, not gendered... its balanced albeit in different ways.

When its unbalanced you end up with some seriously fucked up people. That guy in a bar who got into a fight, and kills someone out of rage. The person who can't control their emotional highs of lust/love/infatuation... what does pure logic (and being implied, the lack of emotion) get us. Serial killers? Recluses? Drug users looking for the high of living?

People are generally balanced. They just may not seem that way sometimes.

I guess the long and short of all my responses, besides my inclination to not base it on genders... there is no such thing as logic vs emotion. They work together to create peoples personalities. Regardless of how far on the pendulum they think they may sit.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:36 PM
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I agree. I think it is a balance. I've encountered met a person who was wholly one or the other (other than Spock). Although, I do know some people who swing pretty far on the Vulcan side. I guess I want there to be more recognition of the value of the emotional side so that they can begin to integrate and create a balance. The perception is often that logic is superior. I don't see emotional as superior, I think they are equal and different and both very necessary to form healthy individuals. The hegemonic patriarchy within western society does tend to view emotion (as a theoretical characteristic) as being 'feminine.' The video that RP shared kind of addresses this idea. When boys cry or show their emotions (other than anger), they're told to man up and stop acting like a girl. As if being a girl is a bad thing. It's not the individual people, but the social constructs I'm referring to. I'm also interested in the subject on a more personal level, of course.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:05 PM
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RP inspired me to have a mini-TED marathon. I found this video interview with Madeleine Albright. It makes some good points and shares a little bit of the gender side of things.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TEDtalks...14/ioMpOr7Yx98
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  #17  
Old 03-15-2011, 08:46 PM
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SourGirl SourGirl is offline
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Actually the 'logical is superior' doesn`t really come from men vs. women.

It comes from 'flight or fight' animal tendencies.

You have left brain introverts/extroverts.

and right brain introverts/extroverts.

Those that can think, plan, ...don`t get eaten or killed.

Those that always choose 'flight' response, or emotional panic, might stay safe, but can`t out-think situations that require logic to get out of.

This goes further then tigers versus antelope too. Even within one species, you have left and right brain thinking patterns. Those that can slow and use logic, will survive. Regardless of male, female, bear, rabbit.

Logic is required for immediate safety, and emotional is required for the survival of a species through socialization.
So balance is needed.
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  #18  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:32 PM
hurricandrunk hurricandrunk is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Parallel parking and emotional way of being do not relate to me. Spacial capacity and logic don't go together for me... the whole female/male stereotyping doesn't work for me either... maybe its the people I hang out with... I think its kind of a cop out to blame anything on gender... I think for me it's more about training as a child. More about empowering people so they believe they can do anything. It frees them up to so much potential. Blaming gender often keeps me from thinking I am capable, so I don't allow it. I am an awesome parallel parker and can be very logical... I owe this to being empowered to be so... its nothing to do with gender I don't think.

I find on an almost daily basis that people are so quick to judge me on my gender and therefore capability within it. Especially while driving. If I cut someone off in traffic, it is somehow seen as I am a stupid woman, if a man does that to me it is somehow justified because I am just a woman. Not one sorry hand wave or glance with apology, just a blow off. If someone does that when Mono or PN are driving they are all apologetic. If my men cut someone off there is not one peep about it. No head shake, no hand flying up and eye roll... what is that shit?! Ya, driving brings out all those stereotypes it seems! As if everyone doesn't cut people off in traffic sometime or make some driving faux pas. Sorry.... off topic, very passionate about the driving thing
you mis understand, i wasn't relating parralell parking to logical or emotional. i was using it as an example of differences between gender.

regardless of how you personally park/feel about gender sterotyping etc there are proven biological/chemical differences between men and women which affects how we react to situations and how well we perform in situations.

as irritating as you find people who sterotype gender, i find people who dont equally frustrating. this equality empowerment thing is all very well. but telling yourself/people that men and women are the same is just incorrect.
i'm not saying we're not equal but we're not the same.

some one said above about fight vs flight. applying this to gender sterotypes. males are tradionally the hunter gather while females are stay at home look after the cave XD
in very basic terms women need to react impulsivly (emotion) and run to save themselves/children. men need to think about the situation (logic) to trap the animal.

on a socialiaztion level as well the gender difference is apparent. women are far more social than men. back to the cave men..females would require the support of other females to look after offspring etc. males view other males as competion and so have less need to be emotional and socialize.

we all like to think we're far more civilized than that, and as a society we no longer need these 'primitive' drives but on a purely biological level we're are so far behind, our bodies and body chemistry still react as if we are primitive animals.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:52 PM
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While I dislike people throwing out basic tendencies as well, they are just that,...tendencies. The perfect 'petri-dish-of-life' allows us to see those tendencies. Real world , is quite different though.

Actually, females of many herd-type animals are just as capable of logic. More so, depending on time of the year, and breeding season rituals.

We all watch far to much National Geographic, and dont understand the true ways animals work together.

I didn`t care to debate this,..but ah well,.. if you watch a mother of any species defend its young, or care for its family, or herd dynamics, ...or even associate ranking amongst other females,..they are extremely left-brain introverted.

Reverse is found often too : They will chase off predators, and confront them. While a male runs with the herd, to keep the majority safe. (fastest male, can lead the herd away, and keep it safe.)

Thats the difference. Introverted, versus extroverted. As Ariakas noted, front-end, versus back-end motivators.

Male, as left-brain extroverts, do not need incentive. This is the difference.

'The women are emotional, and men are logical' is such a very, very, basic generalization, it barely warrants mention.

Last edited by SourGirl; 03-15-2011 at 09:58 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:00 PM
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It is certain that humans are animals and that we have instincts, (drives?), etc., but once we get past this common ground assumption, things are less clear. Example: Not all human males/females exhibit the same presumably biologically embedded behavioral tendencies as a majority do. So it's not accurate to simply say, "Males... this", "females ... that." Also, socialization (enculturation, indoctrination...) remains about as powerful a force in human culture / society / behavior as any other -- at least / perhaps(?).

This stuff is complicated--or, at least, complex. Let us use care not to present it as if it were all sorted out and final.
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