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  #61  
Old 03-06-2011, 08:31 PM
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. . . what I would like to see is that people will KNOW that monogamy is very much a constructed idea "forced from above" and it is highly unlikely that it is our "true nature".

In a perfect world.... yea, I would "force" people to be exposed to these ideas.

. . . This forum is one of the few places where people discuss the "alternatives". There are 6 BILLION people in the world. OK half are kids and many people don't speak English, so lets take it down to 2 BILLION, who speak English, who can connect to the internet.

2 BILLION people live "unnaturally", speak English, are connected to the internet, could find this forum if they wanted to... and there are only 3500 active members here.

WOW

Isn't that borderline sickening? To me, it is...
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  #62  
Old 03-06-2011, 08:34 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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Haha... another thought:

Today, if you are a smoker in NY, you are treated as a leper. You cannot smoke almost anywhere, not even in the streets, not in central park.... 50 years ago, they told people it's healthy. Now you can't walk 10 meters without seeing a "no smoking" sign. And all this because they "discovered" that cigarettes might give you cancer and are "kind of unhealthy.

Now........ take ALL the unhappy marriages, all the frustrations, all the problems that people are having because they are being raised to believe that we are monogamous, with everything that comes with it - that you can't step out of the marriage for sex, that we "should" be jealous at each other, etc etc, all that good stuff.

Now go back and compare that unhealthiness to the unhealthiness of cigarettes. Enjoy.

Last edited by disillusioned; 03-06-2011 at 10:33 PM.
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  #63  
Old 03-06-2011, 09:01 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
First, the women started wearing bras, after generations of always walking around topless -- unselfconsciously and unashamed, of course. The other huge change my friends felt was almost shocking, was that the wives started asking if their husbands loved them. They began demanding to hear the words "I love you."
WOW. What a story....

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
After my friends related this to us, I began to realize that love is a concept, too.
Romantic Love as you see it on American TV is a constructed idea invented to sell flowers, chocolate, and greeting cards.

There are feelings, emotions, sexual attraction... we gave them a word.

But then the word becomes associated with melodramatic songs, soap operas, 3rd rate romantic comedies.... metaphors and representations
of what "love" is or what it should be, but which have very little to do with the real nature of our feelings. So the feelings themselves become clouded by junk.

That's why people can "fall in love with being in love". Or "love" someone one day, and hate him the next. Our minds are clogged. We know nothing, ourselves the least.

More about "constructed reality":

Italians (the nationality), is a political construction made up in the 19th century. Those days people from north Italy weren't even able to speak with "Italians" from the south.

Even the idea of a "nation", to a large extent, is a theoretical construction invented to create borders and control people, and make them fight together and each other. There are very few real nations, and real nation states.

Last edited by disillusioned; 03-06-2011 at 10:35 PM.
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  #64  
Old 03-06-2011, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by disillusioned View Post
I'm not sure where I said that I'm against choice.... Did I advocate a "relationship police" that will break up marriages after a certain time?

"We are sorry dear couple, but you've been together 10 years, that's all we allow, and you are having way too much sex... you are screwing up with our statistics...."

I didn't say that... but what I would like to see is that people will KNOW that monogamy is very much a constructed idea "forced from above" and it is highly unlikely that it is our "true nature".

In a perfect world.... yea, I would "force" people to be exposed to these ideas. But then, what they do with this knowledge - why would I care? People can do whatever they want... did I come off as a fascist dictator ???




It's not "important" to me that I'm right, I'm just passionate about this... and here is why:

Another thought - monogamy / relationships / sex... are just about the most important aspects of the human existence. I'm saying (and you too I think) that most people live "unnatural" lives. How many is "most people"? About 99% of the human race. This forum is one of the few places where people discuss the "alternatives". There are 6 BILLION people in the world. OK half are kids and many people don't speak English, so lets take it down to 2 BILLION, who speak English, who can connect to the internet.

2 BILLION people live "unnaturally", speak English, are connected to the internet, could find this forum if they wanted to... and there are only 3500 active members here.

WOW

Isn't that borderline sickening? To me, it is...

Yes, sickening is a strong word, I know... Its just that I see so many of society's ills as PARTLY being the result of us living "unnaturally" - people's frustrations, unhappiness, sex crimes, violence... for me this is not just "an interesting discovery", because, as I said before, it relates to the FOUNDATION of how our society is organized.

How can something that relates to the foundations of our society can be anything less than "huge" ?
The core problem is that you're both right and wrong. And, you're talking as if you're all right.

Tyranny is always the result when people are over convinced of their rightness. It matters not a whit whether or not you have noble motives in reducing the suffering of billions.

Humility, listening and questioning are critical qualities to enduring social change. They are equal partners to passion, logic and facts.
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  #65  
Old 03-06-2011, 09:12 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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Originally Posted by MindfulAgony View Post
The core problem is that you're both right and wrong. And, you're talking as if you're all right.
What am I wrong about?

I admit I know nothing with a 100% certainty, including my own existence.
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  #66  
Old 03-06-2011, 09:34 PM
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What am I wrong about?

I admit I know nothing with a 100% certainty, including my own existence.
LOL. You make my point for me beautifully.

Anywho, to answer your question, you are most probably wrong in scope. 99% is a very high number. It can't be said even that 99% are hetero-sexual. And, I would be more likely to believe that opposite sex attraction is more fundamental than notions of sexual variety, etc.

Most people might be biologically driven one way, but happily chose another way.

It might be more accurate to suggest that a majority of us are born with some tendencies toward sexual variety and with some capacity for non-monogamy. It is also probably true that having a wider range of accepted options would reduce much suffering in the world.

Insisting that 99% should (or are biologically driven to) be non-monogamous might result in just as much suffering as people find that they don't exactly fit that mold any better.
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  #67  
Old 03-06-2011, 09:58 PM
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Hi Disollusioned,

Might I suggest you start another thread or post in introductions to tell us a little bit about yourself. It might help to understand where your disillussionment comes from if you told us more of your story.

I'm sure you have tonnes to add of value to this forum but it is hard to find it amongst your frustration and anger. Unless you simply want to argue...we've seen that before and those people have come and gone like the wind. I doubt that this is the case and it would be nice to hear more about your experiences in a constructive and sharing way.

Just some thoughts.

Take care
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  #68  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:00 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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Great!! NOW we're talking!

1) The fact that I ask "what am I wrong about?" doesn't mean that I think that everything I said is right. I was asking you seriously which of my ideas or statements you see as wrong.

2) 99%.... come on, you know what I mean.

But most importantly:

3) Again we are talking about orientations - gay, straight, poly, mono... the problem with this is that a monogamous lifestyle is not simply an orientation - it assumes many more things than simply a preference.

It assumes two people living together in the same space. It assumes sharing a bed, it assumes exclusive sexual relations and exclusive emotional relations, it assumes many physical and emotional borders, rules and regulation which shape your entire reality!

if you are gay then... you are gay! That's it! You are attracted to the same sex... cool! It's just your preference. That preference will shape how your life will look like, but still in accordance to the "higher" constructions.

Monogamy is on a completely different level of consequences... it related to how our reality is organized in the most basic way.

Of course gay couples still suffer from the same problems that straight couples suffer from... because it doesn't matter who the two people in the relationship are. The problem is with the nature of relationships THEMSELVES. With the idea that we "MUST" spend most if not ALL free time together. That we should be jealous of each other. That we need to spend vacations together. That we shouldn't flirt, shouldn't have sex with others, etc etc etc.


Do we understand each other better now?

Last edited by disillusioned; 03-06-2011 at 10:20 PM.
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  #69  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:10 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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OK, another one:

When couples have problems they will often go to therapy together.... and then what the therapist tells them?

You should have your own spaces.
You should respect each others borders.
You should perhaps not sleep in the same bed. (many sexologists now recommend couples not to share the same bed).
To spice up your sex life, you should dress up as a policeman / cat woman. (you should assume a different personality!)

What are all these advices if not ways to "cheat" ourselves into a "fake" non monogamous relationship ???
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  #70  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disillusioned View Post
OK, another one:

When couples have problems they will often go to therapy together.... and then what the therapist tells them?

You should have your own spaces.
You should respect each others borders.
You should perhaps not sleep in the same bed. (many sexologists now recommend couples not to share the same bed).
To spice up your sex life, you should dress up as a policeman / cat woman. (you should assume a different personality!)

What are all these advices if not ways to "cheat" ourselves into a "fake" non monogamous relationship ???
What a blanket statement. None of the therapists my hubs and I ever went to ever said any of that. Maybe yours did, but it's ridiculous to state that most do, across the board. Come on now!
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