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  #51  
Old 02-02-2011, 09:47 PM
jasminegld jasminegld is offline
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One point she makes that I do wonder about is this. She believes that the need to love more than one person is somehow about not being connected to god. She puts it alongside a number of other things that divert us from a spiritual path.
John 21: 20-23
20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them....
21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about him?"
22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"
23 So the rumor spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"

The point of this passage is that Jesus's call to Peter was different than his call to the other disciple, and it was not Peter's business to sort out the other disciple's call. It was Peter's business to follow his own call, and be about his own spiritual work. In terms of a poly person with a conservative Christian family member, the conservative Christian family member may have new challenges to their own faith because they learned of the relative's poly relationship. The family member has their own call related to their own spiritual path. Like Peter, they can look around and fixate on other people. It's easier than doing one's own work.

That which contributes to or diverts us from our spiritual path is highly personal and often impossible to explain in words. And it's not subject to other people's evaluations. Jesus said so.

Jasmine

Last edited by jasminegld; 02-02-2011 at 09:56 PM.
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  #52  
Old 02-03-2011, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jasminegld View Post
John 21: 20-23
20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them....
21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about him?"
22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"
23 So the rumor spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"

The point of this passage is that Jesus's call to Peter was different than his call to the other disciple, and it was not Peter's business to sort out the other disciple's call. It was Peter's business to follow his own call, and be about his own spiritual work. In terms of a poly person with a conservative Christian family member, the conservative Christian family member may have new challenges to their own faith because they learned of the relative's poly relationship. The family member has their own call related to their own spiritual path. Like Peter, they can look around and fixate on other people. It's easier than doing one's own work.

That which contributes to or diverts us from our spiritual path is highly personal and often impossible to explain in words. And it's not subject to other people's evaluations. Jesus said so.

Jasmine
Yup. Accurate. We each were made unique. Yet we keep thinking that Christians can be one or united in faith when clearly we weren't wired that way. And there is such strong pressure to conform in society for the sake, I suppose, of security, when it sort of seems to be a fool's folly.
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  #53  
Old 02-21-2011, 02:10 AM
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It was Peter's business to follow his own call, and be about his own spiritual work.
This theme is repeated multiple times throughout the Bible. I immediately thought of (horrible paraphrasing here) finding a speck in your brother's eye, when there is a log in your own. I think when Christians remember that it is about one's personal *individual* walk with Christ, you can easily separate artificial doctrine from essential articles of faith. Finding fault in others is so much easier than working on one's own problems that it often pushes to the point of projecting. I think that theme is in there so frequently because God knew we needed to be reminded constantly to look at yourself first, then help others with love and acceptance, and without judgement.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:24 AM
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help others with love and acceptance, and without judgement.
the nt seems to be divided re love, acceptance and lack of judgement. Paul in 1 Corinthians seems really clear that others should not judge each other, but not a page later he starts in judging others himself. the difference seems to be that it's ok for him because he is a church leader, but it's not ok for others because they are just church members.

i get the impression that maybe they - those people in history - were as human as we are, or that their definition of judgment was something else.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:52 AM
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Well, at risk of sounding blasphemous, Paul was a little crazy, with a religous fever not even Peter could match. I don't think he gets a pass just for being a church leader, but he was probably the world's first overzealous convert. Remember, most of the others converted with little guilt, but Paul had a lot of baggage to atone for, (at least in his mind) for persecuting Christians before his conversion experience. His faith may have changed, but the personality didn't, it would seem. Also, I'm wary of anyone that didn't learn firsthand from Jesus Himself and claims having had a vision or heard a disembodied voice. Not saying it wasn't genuine... just take Paul with a huge grain of salt.

My attitude towards Paul is "Thanks for the bacon but dude, lay off the gays".
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:00 PM
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I think we also seem to forget, that Paul was writing letters to other church leaders, he was addressing very specific issues within a specific group of people. While Paul's response was recorded, we don't have a true account of what he was actually going on.

Paul was a traveling preacher. How many so called "great preachers" have been around over the centuries? While many of them had alot of insight and good hearts, they were all still very influenced by tradition, culture and the predjudices of the time. Why is it assumed that Paul is any different than any other so called "great preacher" just because some monk centuries later decided to copy his letters into a book?
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  #57  
Old 03-05-2011, 06:22 PM
jasminegld jasminegld is offline
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When we talk with conservative Christian family and friends, it doesn't do any good to criticize Paul's credential's or any other part of the Bible. It's more effective to understand the religious concerns of the person we're talking with and speak to those concerns in religious language.

When a person struggles to reconcile polyamory with one's own religious faith, again it doesn't do any good to criticize that faith's Scripture or prophets or major leaders. That's merely distraction from the real issues. Rather, the primary task is to dig out what is at the foundation of one's own faith, spend some time with this foundation, and figure out where polyamory fits into it.
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Old 03-05-2011, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jasminegld View Post
When we talk with conservative Christian family and friends, it doesn't do any good to criticize Paul's credential's or any other part of the Bible. It's more effective to understand the religious concerns of the person we're talking with and speak to those concerns in religious language.

When a person struggles to reconcile polyamory with one's own religious faith, again it doesn't do any good to criticize that faith's Scripture or prophets or major leaders. That's merely distraction from the real issues. Rather, the primary task is to dig out what is at the foundation of one's own faith, spend some time with this foundation, and figure out where polyamory fits into it.
This holds true no matter the topic. As a Christian, raise in a super conservative home, I tend to argue such points as a matter of course. Probably too often for everyone's comfort.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:38 PM
jasminegld jasminegld is offline
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This holds true no matter the topic. As a Christian, raise in a super conservative home, I tend to argue such points as a matter of course. Probably too often for everyone's comfort.
I'm generally happy to have such conversations myself. I have a number of responses to your points floating around in my mind.

However, this message board is about polyamory. So I'd prefer to talk about, and encourage others to talk about, the way polyamory and religion impact each other.
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  #60  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by brainfreezy View Post
Well, at risk of sounding blasphemous, Paul was a little crazy, with a religous fever not even Peter could match. I don't think he gets a pass just for being a church leader, but he was probably the world's first overzealous convert. Remember, most of the others converted with little guilt, but Paul had a lot of baggage to atone for, (at least in his mind) for persecuting Christians before his conversion experience. His faith may have changed, but the personality didn't, it would seem. Also, I'm wary of anyone that didn't learn firsthand from Jesus Himself and claims having had a vision or heard a disembodied voice. Not saying it wasn't genuine... just take Paul with a huge grain of salt.

My attitude towards Paul is "Thanks for the bacon but dude, lay off the gays".
Hello brainfreezy! Glad to make your acquaintance. You make very good points here. Just two small questions. First, what does 'thanks for the bacon' mean? Second, yes, there is much about Paul that causes doubt. And a believer has to decide about having faith in the Bible. Lots of stuff can't be proven or established or logically considered as being factual or maybe truthful.
So is it?
Well, that's a matter of faith, and faith might be a good thing or might not. Believing all things isn't categorically wonderful. We're dealing with an ancient culture, having as much to do with life today as a culture from Mars might. Needs to be dealt with realistically. Jesus is about truth, eh? Truth and realism amount to the same thing.
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