Lets start a revolution

[NeonKaos]

You should have told them about all the awards you won when you were a student. Maybe that would have saved their relationship. If you hurry, maybe you can catch them before they get away.

[DrunkenPorcupine]

You should have told them about all the awards you won when you were a student.

I LOLed.

[Derbylicious]

Originally Posted by disillusioned

The girl left without looking back. The guy was trying to be hard with her but you could see how sad he was. Too bad, if they only knew it was coded in their DNA maybe they would have been nicer to each other... not hurt, not angry... they could have told each other "That's life, relationships can't last forever, despite what all those songs on radio say..."

Why would the break up be any less painful even if they knew that (according to you) their relationship was doomed to have an expiry date? Humans come with a whole lot of emotions. When we are intimately involved with someone we let our guards down and we tend to expose to them the things that are most likely to hurt us. Leading up to a break up there tends to be a lot of fighting and a lot of these things are brought up which leads to the break up being painful. There are plenty of non-monogamous people who have break ups that are just as painful (for all you know the couple who you saw were non-monogamous).

[nycindie]

Yeah, ridiculous to think that people wouldn't hurt or feel the sting of a break-up anymore if they embraced polyamory as their "true nature." Polyamory is about love, after all, not just biological sexual urges, and loving someone brings the possibility of a full range of emotional responses. We let someone into our hearts, and when they move on, there is often pain, for numerous reasons. Plus you don't know what happened with that couple to make any assumptions.

Hey, regarding DNA coding and biology and choice an all that shit, think about this: I'm biologically built to birth babies, but I've never felt the urge. I may be programmed for it, my hormones and instincts prepare me for it, but I know I was never meant to be a mother. I never wanted it, and at 50 I am relieved and happy to have dodged that bullet all my life. Am I missing out because I have a uterus and was supposed to use it for popping out offspring?

Scheisse, no!!

[NeonKaos]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Hey, regarding DNA coding and biology and choice an all that shit, think about this: I'm biologically built to birth babies, but I've never felt the urge. I may be programmed for it, my hormones and instincts prepare me for it, but I know I was never meant to be a mother. I never wanted it, and at 50 I am relieved and happy to have dodged that bullet all my life. Am I missing out because I have a uterus and was supposed to use it for popping out offspring?

Scheisse, no!!

Word.

[redpepper]

Originally Posted by disillusioned

I understand that many of you guys feel "special " and more mature than others, and "different ". Then I come along and say "no... you are not different at all ". I understand why this would make you to not like me...

You are special because you were strong enough to see thru the lies. Now be strong enough to realize that you are NOT special in that we were all born non monogamous, and that this is all pure biology and nothing else... and that being poly is a RESULT of this non monogamous nature.

Originally Posted by disillusioned

I have an advanced degree in the social sciences (but I'm not American as you can tell) so I look at things in an academic and scientific way. I had articles published in my field and won awards for some of the things I wrote. We are just looking at things from a different perspective, you talk about the everyday experiences that people have here, I talk about the nature of our race.

Originally Posted by disillusioned

OK, I must remind myself how emotional and irrational people are, and move on.... thanks

Soooo, what you are saying is that we are all not special or different, yet our monogamous culture would say we are, yet no one is because we are all non monogamous?

And because of your education (not life education by the sounds of it... academic) we have not realized this and should begin a regimented assault on our culture of monogamy and stage a take over?

Why? Because you think your academics wins out over real life experiences of the emotional and irrational... (not seeing the irrational here, but whatever... your statement)? Because monogamoists are wrong and Polyamorists are right simply because a book says that history says so? And you too of course?

Is this correct? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, I am simply taking the words that you have used and am attempting to understand.

In my personal opinion, academic and scientific study is all very well, but has just as much clout as real life experience and the study of culture by being in it and participating in it respectfully. Something that seems to be missing in your posts OP. What is your experience with poly and open/casual relationships and sex?

We are all no more different or special than the next person. No one comes out on top. People have a need to belong, be encouraged, find wisdom in others and learn from that.... that is what happens on this forum and is what has made it successful thus far.

I find when people approach a topic in such a way as to appear arrogant and condescending and therefore lack respect for others....that I don't want to feel a sense of belonging with them (poly belonging, existing on this planet at this time belonging, living in this culture belonging), nor am I interested in their wisdom regardless of what they tell me their education is (we don't even know what course of study you are in.... could be Spanish or something), not to mention I lose the ability to look for the nuggets of wisdom in what they say. I just don't want to engage them at all and toodle off to find someone that does want to "discuss" rather than "brow beat" as someone said.

Please encourage me to be patient and engaging by taking another approach to this valid topic. Your opinion is valid OP, just not your presentation of it. Perhaps a debate with some respect for others and their experience and education would be better received?

Originally Posted by Penny

Sex at Dawn focuses on our polyamorous natures, but it also demonstrates that humans evolved to have a mixed reproductive strategy. This does not exclude monogamy as a viable option. Certainly we were meant to be much more egalitarian in our sexual practices, and certainly polyamory is natural, but you cannot tell a person who feels, even after deep self-reflection and contemplation, that monogamy is a better fit for them that they are wrong.

Thank you Penny, this was my understanding of the book from people I am friends with here in my town that met the author this past fall at a conference.

The author presented an idea based on his research findings from what I understand. Interesting, but by far not the whole story... what is most interesting is that his book is likely the tip of the iceberg where this course of study is concerned. What made it history, it seems, is that it opened the door to more and more exploration on sexuality and orientation. It is moving our culture of monogamy to think differently about where monogamy came from and why. That is a good thing. I believe it is always a good thing to challenge oneself and others. I love that this book is doing that and comes up over again for me in different contexts and arenas throughout my life.

My brother has a doctorate in biology. He is a behaviourist. I am a therapist by trade.... We have had some very interesting discussions on the difference between animal behaviour and human behaviour as a result.

He is monogamous with his partner and I am as poly as they come. He and I could talk for hours and debate our positions... he has been completely confused as to "why?" I would be this way where he isn't ... he is finding it easier to accept and even embrace by thinking of me and other poly people in terms of study. In nature animals are quite often on the same continuum of the scale between monogamy and casual sex or poly, depending on how one wants to look at it. My brothers coping mechanism for understanding is to view me as being on that scale that all creatures are on... *shrug* what ever works for him... its a work in progress this topic we discuss... he is convinced, with the help of his partner and mono friends, that my husband and I will break up over this. There seems to be no interest in the possibility that I might break up with my other partners that have equal value to me and my life.

What he doesn't get is that "this" has always been for us for 13 years we have been together... and that "this" is the best it has ever been... there is nothing to do but live my life as an example and let time pass. And, keep discussing.

[disillusioned]

OK, I read all the posts again. I was not condescending or attacking, or anything, until way way into this discussion. I started with questions:

Originally Posted by disillusioned

How do you find partners that have the same POV? Do you just tell people that you meet that this is how you see things?

Instead of answers, I was attacked and my intentions questioned:

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

One book later, based on research and a perspective that is not without debate...

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

All very interesting and valid points but you should consider broadening your scope of research

I've been also flamed and when I posted a reply "flame" it has been removed (but the flaming post not) and I also asked to close the thread and that request was deleted too. (I think if I started a thread I should be allowed to close it).

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

Polyamory seeks acceptance, not conversion.

First of all, I didn't say Polyamory is about about conversion. But I AM about conversion. I now "push" on everyone I know an organic wheat grass powder called Green Vibrance. It has all the nutrients and vitamins you need, it promotes general health, it gives you clean natural energy, it increases your mental capacity. You can find it on Amazon and read the 139 five star reviews. There are now six other people who started taking it because of me, because I "pushed" them to it. Why? Because I've never been healthier in my life, because it knocked off an hour of my sleep each night, because my skin looks like I'm 12 years old again. So when I find something good I talk about it with everybody and try to have them try it. That's just the kind of person I am. Actually, many or most people I know would NOT talk about this with their friends because most people (according to my 31 years of experience) have a tendency to keep good things for themselves, out of selfishness and jealousy.

Originally Posted by redpepper

Soooo, what you are saying is that we are all not special or different, yet our monogamous culture would say we are, yet no one is because we are all non monogamous?

Let me tell you about a paper I'm writing, it is about the writings of an Italian philosopher called Giorgio Agamben who argues that we are all Homo Sacer, that is, a person who has been included into society by being excluded from it. For example - Jews in Nazi Germany in the 1930's were, by law, unprotected by law. That is, they were legally stripped out of their legal rights, so despite the fact that it was illegal to murder, you could still legally kill Jews, because there was a law for it. This is different from previous centuries where, for example, in Rome, Romans were citizens while salves were not - salves were "outside of law" all together. Today, because we live in "civilized" societies, we make laws that legalize unlawful things, Guantanamo Bay, for example.

So, there you have it - inclusion by exclusion. Pretty confusing, ah? Sounds like a bunch of crap? Maybe... But all these abstract ideas and complicated notions allow us to dig deeper into reality, discover new layers of meaning, find out more about what is around us. So when I became condescending (after being attacked) and brushed off things like "every person is different", I only did it because it was not part of the discussion to begin with.

If every person is really different - you can kiss most sciences goodbye. Medicine, Psychotherapy, Sociology... If we are all different, there is no point to any of them.

What would be part of the discussion? What would make a "meaningful" discussion? (I admit, meaningful to me) I will give you an example. Now I will play the other side:

Dear disillusioned,

There might be evidence that Homo Sapiens, in nature, is a non monogamous race. However, over the past 5000 years we developed societies in order to make life more manageable and we created some norms that facilitate that. One of these norms is that people form life long relationships, so they may have children, accumulate personal property so those children are being taken care of, and so the two individuals care for each other in old age, etc.

And you know something disillusioned? It worked pretty well so far. We are people living in societies, not animals running wild. Most girls are capable of bearing children at the age of 12-14, and a healthy boy will develop sperm at around that age too. So what do you suggest? That kids start having children at the age of 12, only because it is "natural"? Only because "they can"? We are living in a civilized society and while perhaps we are not monogamous - in NATURE - if everybody would live a polygamous life, society would crumble and deteriorate into chaos.

[end of imaginary post]

That would be a deep, intellectual, abstract and philosophical argument. (sorry for being condescending, again - I became like that after being attacked, my motives questioned, not taken seriously, etc)

I will add to that, about my "experience" - I don't know many people who at the age of 31 had a 9 year relationship. There are many people twice my age who never have this experience. Also, me and my GF are not really broken up, she released me for a period of experimentation and self search, and I used it to get in touch with a girl I had a crush on for five years, and started a relationship with her, while also seeing a 3rd girl AND my gf. This has all been externally interesting, confusing, etc etc, but the point is that while I'm not 70 years old with 55 years of poly experience, I'm not some 14 years old who doesn't know anything about anything.

Keep the flames for yourselves and have a nice day.

[Magdlyn]

Hey, I am intrigued by the book Sex at Dawn and your post reminded me I wanted to order it off of Amazon. They had a used hardcover for under $9... it will soon be mine.

From the reviews I read, I tend to buy the authors' theory that for 95% of human culture, we lived in small tribes of 150 or less, where people had multiple sex partners, and all adults were called mother and father by offspring of the tribe.

I was mono for 30 years, but always had a roving eye and got crushes on people right and left. Since I started exploring polyamory over 10 years ago, my mind was opened. After my ex and I split, and I started dating multiple people, as well as finding a dear poly gf, I have never felt so free and authentic, true to myself.

[River]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

From the reviews I read, I tend to buy the authors' theory that for 95% of human culture, we lived in small tribes of 150 or less, where people had multiple sex partners, and all adults were called mother and father by offspring of the tribe.

But were these also love partners?

I ask because -- as many here know -- I'm weary of the rampant loss of whole connection (or intimacy) in "sex," which is often now treated as a trivial form of casual recreation where the heart isn't expected to be involved. I see a wide spectrum of kinds of loving being possible, and am not opposed to brief "encounters," but (perhaps especially among "gay" men) it's sometimes difficult to find whole, rounded "encounter". Too many hearts are left out of "sex" altogether.

[dragonflysky]

Originally Posted by disillusioned

....
First of all, I didn't say Polyamory is about about conversion. But I AM about conversion. I now "push" on everyone I know an organic wheat grass powder called Green Vibrance. It has all the nutrients and vitamins you need, it promotes general health, it gives you clean natural energy, it increases your mental capacity. You can find it on Amazon and read the 139 five star reviews. There are now six other people who started taking it because of me, because I "pushed" them to it. Why? Because I've never been healthier in my life, because it knocked off an hour of my sleep each night, because my skin looks like I'm 12 years old again. So when I find something good I talk about it with everybody and try to have them try it. That's just the kind of person I am. Actually, many or most people I know would NOT talk about this with their friends because most people (according to my 31 years of experience) have a tendency to keep good things for themselves, out of selfishness and jealousy.

I have never been one that listens well to high pressure sales people...or fundamentalist "fire and brimstone" styles..or "snake oil" type presentations...no matter how potentially wonderful, unique, or outstanding a "product" may be. This is how your style comes across to me. I get into that old "fight-flight-freeze" positioning, which I don't find conducive in trying to connect and discuss issues with others. As a psychotherapist...I don't find it to be a particularly effective style of communication with the majority of the people who are considering making changes within themselves...and I have been in "the business" for 34 years.

Do I go around talking about all I know from personal and professional experience to everyone I meet because it's good stuff and I want everyone to benefit from it? NO! Is it because I "want to keep good things for myself, out of selfishness and jealousy." NO. It's because I have deep respect for an individual's autonomy, their sense of value and worth, their right to travel their journey...and while I find humans to have many common wants, needs, patterns of behaviors, etc....each one has had a unique combination.

You will find those who respond well to your style of presentation about your POV. If your desire is to share the "good news" you've found, however, with the largest number of people possible...and/or to find others who share a similar POV...AND TO BE HEARD...I'm not sure you're current style of communication is the most conducive to that end.